How do you usually deal with them. I figure Valykyries with some cloaks wraiths would do good against them, but what about in original starcraft- not bw.
What could you use against a horde of mutalisks with a few overlords to spot wraiths, mutas have a lot of hitpoints! And the wraiths would get shot down, I think marines would get slaughtered too because of the glaive wum attack which can hit multiple targets, Goliaths I almost want to say would be ok, but couldn't they just move within range of the goliaths and pound them from overhead?
Mutalisks in starcraft
Moderator: Thanas
-
DPDarkPrimus
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 18399
- Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
- Location: Iowa
- Contact:
-
Stormbringer
- King of Democracy
- Posts: 22678
- Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm
I think I should master original starcraft before broodwar, or at least learn to deal with lurkers. Someone mentioned not to waste your scans because they can leave and come back, I think it would be worth it if you could kill them in 1 or 2 5 siege tank salvo's, problem solved. Just one other thing that bothers me is scouting, when you send a unit off to find where your enemy's base is and it gets stuck. I like how empire earth has the explore option. And well, I have to watch more replays to learn some strategies.Stormbringer wrote:He means pre-brood war.DPDarkPrimus wrote:Valkyries, duh.
-
Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37390
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Re: Mutalisks in starcraft
Frankly your comparisons are just fucking stupid; of course you're going to lose units no matter what because the enemy shoots back. Cloaked Wraiths do the trick unless you're fighting over their base, which tends to have a great many spore colonies. But you will need to micromanage them to shoot down the overlords. However Goliaths and marines can also work quite well. Though I tend not to build Goliaths in basic starcraft.Shrykull wrote: What could you use against a horde of mutalisks with a few overlords to spot wraiths, mutas have a lot of hitpoints! And the wraiths would get shot down, I think marines would get slaughtered too because of the glaive wum attack which can hit multiple targets, Goliaths I almost want to say would be ok, but couldn't they just move within range of the goliaths and pound them from overhead?
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Re: Mutalisks in starcraft
Sea Skimmer wrote:Shrykull wrote: What could you use against a horde of mutalisks with a few overlords to spot wraiths, mutas have a lot of hitpoints! And the wraiths would get shot down, I think marines would get slaughtered too because of the glaive wum attack which can hit multiple targets, Goliaths I almost want to say would be ok, but couldn't they just move within range of the goliaths and pound them from overhead?Frankly your comparisons are just fucking stupid; of course you're going to lose units no matter what because the enemy shoots back.
Well, yes, but every unit except them seems to have a counter unit. Siege tanks can kills tons of zerglings on the ground, guardians can't hit wraiths but since mutalisks are so tough and they hit multiple targets wouldn't marines and goliaths and wraiths (if he has overlords) get wasted against mutas?
-
Thunderfire
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1063
- Joined: 2002-08-13 04:52am
Cloaked wraiths are best, provided you micro first to take out any observers. If you can't take out the observers, or have to attack near spore colonies, then Goliaths are the better option.
Unless you're playing a human opponent, though, the best thing to remember is micro. Hot-key your Goliath/Wraith group, and have them all attack the same target. One or 2 volleys max per mutalisk will take it out, making the exchange much more in your favor. Even if by some random fluke the mutas come out on top, assuming equal numbers, I'd guess no more than 3 mutas will be left, and at least 1 of those will be hurt.
Unless you're playing a human opponent, though, the best thing to remember is micro. Hot-key your Goliath/Wraith group, and have them all attack the same target. One or 2 volleys max per mutalisk will take it out, making the exchange much more in your favor. Even if by some random fluke the mutas come out on top, assuming equal numbers, I'd guess no more than 3 mutas will be left, and at least 1 of those will be hurt.
-
Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
- Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
Just a question to anyone else who knoes about non-BW StarCraft, but can you upgrade regular SC to version 1.09, without switching to Brood War?
One of the things BW solved was some of the unit imbalances. For one thing, Mutalisks in the original v1.00 were still stuck with the dilemma of being a larger unit deisgned to attack small units but still be vulnerable to them. It took a few months after the game was released to properly tweak its stats right (they might have had to redefine/expand the armor classes even, iirc).
Upgrading to 1.09 (don't get v1.1; next to no changes and makes all previous replays/mods incompatible) might help the imbalance out a bit, because they're supposed to be weak to lighter units if I recall. You might just have to opt for Brood War, if regular SC stopped at v1.03 (I started with Brood War w/o playing SC first. didn't affect me).
One of the things BW solved was some of the unit imbalances. For one thing, Mutalisks in the original v1.00 were still stuck with the dilemma of being a larger unit deisgned to attack small units but still be vulnerable to them. It took a few months after the game was released to properly tweak its stats right (they might have had to redefine/expand the armor classes even, iirc).
Upgrading to 1.09 (don't get v1.1; next to no changes and makes all previous replays/mods incompatible) might help the imbalance out a bit, because they're supposed to be weak to lighter units if I recall. You might just have to opt for Brood War, if regular SC stopped at v1.03 (I started with Brood War w/o playing SC first. didn't affect me).
By His Word...
-
Alferd Packer
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3706
- Joined: 2002-07-19 09:22pm
- Location: Slumgullion Pass
- Contact:
Problem with mutas is that they're small units, so wraiths and golaiths only do half damage to them. Marines do full damage to them, so fully upgraded and stimpacked marines can rip mutalisks apart with micromanagement. However, wraiths are necessary in a supporting role so that the zerg player doesn't morph 24 guardians and gut your base in two minutes flat.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." -Herbert Spencer
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.
"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." - Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III vi.
-
Enforcer Talen
- Warlock
- Posts: 10285
- Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
- Location: Boston
- Contact:
several dozen upgraded marines.
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
-
Spyder
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 4465
- Joined: 2002-09-03 03:23am
- Location: Wellington, New Zealand
- Contact:
Scourge, Hydralisks, Defilier's Plague, other mutalisks / Dragoons, Carriers, Archons, High Templar's Psionic Storm / A shitload of Marines, Goliaths, Science Vessel's irradiate (good against all forms of Zerg actually, same with psionic storm), wraith squadrons in groups of 5 or more.
Under BW: upgrade the range on the goliaths, corsairs, valks, devourer+mutalisk swarms (don't make devourers on their own, the splash damage is good but you need to accompany it with something with a faster firing rate.)
Under BW: upgrade the range on the goliaths, corsairs, valks, devourer+mutalisk swarms (don't make devourers on their own, the splash damage is good but you need to accompany it with something with a faster firing rate.)
-
Anarchist Bunny
- Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
- Posts: 5458
- Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
- Contact:
I'm a Broodwar player only (I don't see much of a point in regular SC if BW is available), but here's some tips for regular sc, although most apply to bw as well.
1. Wraiths...tend to not work. Even with cloaking. 1 overlord is all the enemy needs, you do only 10 dmg, they do splash, cost-wise, you lose.
2. Goliaths...tend to be a poor choice, ESPECIALLY in original sc where there is no range upgrade. Shy away from them
3. Missile Turrets. Like goliaths, just a whole cheaper. You need 2-3 of these, anyway, for detection/overlord drop shootdown.
4. Marines. Against the comp, stick them in a bunker and repair. That's all you have to do, as the comp does not micro-manage. Against an intelligent player, they'll likey run them away. Still, large groups of upgraded marines work wonders ( just make sure to focus fire!).
5. Irradiate. If you can tech up to this fast, get the sci vessel energy upgrade, grab a few vessels, you're golden. This works WONDERS against mutalisks.
My suggestion, however, would be to get bw, and then just get medics+marines+sci vessels.
1. Wraiths...tend to not work. Even with cloaking. 1 overlord is all the enemy needs, you do only 10 dmg, they do splash, cost-wise, you lose.
2. Goliaths...tend to be a poor choice, ESPECIALLY in original sc where there is no range upgrade. Shy away from them
3. Missile Turrets. Like goliaths, just a whole cheaper. You need 2-3 of these, anyway, for detection/overlord drop shootdown.
4. Marines. Against the comp, stick them in a bunker and repair. That's all you have to do, as the comp does not micro-manage. Against an intelligent player, they'll likey run them away. Still, large groups of upgraded marines work wonders ( just make sure to focus fire!).
5. Irradiate. If you can tech up to this fast, get the sci vessel energy upgrade, grab a few vessels, you're golden. This works WONDERS against mutalisks.
My suggestion, however, would be to get bw, and then just get medics+marines+sci vessels.
-
SWPIGWANG
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1693
- Joined: 2002-09-24 05:00pm
- Location: Commence Primary Ignorance
foolz
1. Wraith DEMANDS you to micro and kill the lord. It is almost REQUIRED for you to flank the muta and hit the overlord from unprotected angles. A Muta have the shortest range of all air units, it is quite easy to kill the overlord on first strike as one salvo of 12 kills one, and most plays don't bring more than half a dozen anyway. If you have enough micro skills relative, it is possible to hit and run the lords and not lose a wraith in the process, especially if his air is fighting some ground units and is stacking. If you can concentrate your stack (use move onto buildings/friendly units) it might also be possible to do lots of damage against a more scattered out stack with hit and runs. If he chases you, run. If he chases you alot, run, cloak turn and shoot (free salvo). While wraith are useless in base assults in muta killing, that is why terrans have seige tanks.
Also, a wraith isn't that expensive as marines can fill in must ground roles when mixed with a few tanks while a zerg player have to use gas expensive hydra for basic combat, and still is out matched on the ground. (2 marines w/ stim kills a hydra on any day)
2. Marines (w stim and medic in BW) can kill anything sort of a huge stack. A marine is more than 4 times cheaper than a muta (due to no gas) but 3 marines can outshoot a muta. It is probably difficult to beat good muta micro-er (they run) with only marines, but it can save you against a muta-rusher or attacks on tank pushes and worker lines. If the enemy is shooting something with high hp or non-vital, remember to organize the marines (no one stream suicide) first before rushing in.
3. Goliath can beat muta on a cost basis, but is generally a inflexible unit in vaillian SC. In BW goliath is VITAL against inevitable Guardian armies if you don't have air.
4. Irradiate: The low tech psi storm. No matter what the opponent does, it is going to hurt. It makes "raiding" with sci-vessals sometimes useful (be sure a line of safe retreat exists though, like over some marines) Because the low range of muta leading to much stacking, irradiate is the perfect weapon against muta whores. Even if the player is a superb microer, he'd still need time to seperate his irradiated muta out of the stack, giving you time to make a hit and run with wraith or warp them up with a ring of (ma)rings.
5. Bunkers, Missile Turrets: They can't be everywhere, and a concentrated attack take down isolated ones. However, do defend the peon line, choke points and such with them and do use them in narrow maps. Playing on a 64x256 map can show you how completely useless mutas are when it can't run.
6. BCs: well, this is late game but BCs slaughter petty much any Zerg unit silly. (save defier and microed scouge). Just support them with marines and tanks under them and TEH FREE WINNNNN
7. Use Strategy, not tactics: Muta -> Guard is the zerg ace in the hole during mid game. Don't give him the initive. If you see a muta rusher build with the early peon scout (pool, gas, no hydra, lots of lings, and especially hive upgrading), go bot and ring on him. If he does muta mid game build go tank push on him and camp a ton of marines and maybe defense structures (if bloody choke point battles break out) and push him to death, as mutas are no good against concentrated, prepared ground forces. Finally, if he is stupid enough to not have killed you and let you get to late game with only mutas, just mass BC and cover them with powerful tanks, marines, sci and goli and just roll em over.
As for marines and wraith, it is worth it. If he brings lords, feel free to stim the marines and shoot his lord to death if he dares running the mutas away. (or just stim and shoot the lords anyway if you have enough wraith in reserve and the rings are in range) Stimed marines have the best damage to cost ratio sort of lings, and mutas can't take it for that long. (9 + 3 +1 at 50 cooldown vs 6 x 4 at 15 cooldown? no thanks) As for goli it is tough enough and cheap enough to outnumber mutas and soak up fire against less experienced muta users. Muta is expensive, as all teched zerg units needs a hefty gas load to build, while gas is mined at around 1/4 rate of minerals. (that is why crackings is popular late game, because it is gas cheap and a decent ground force against many units) If the numbers are similar, it is definitly worth while to kill those mutas with only mineral cost. (while you tech a few sci vessal to irridate his ass next time he uses mutas)
A frontal muta attack on terrans is suicide. The good muta users like to raid terrans to death by killing peons, expensions and getting out ASAP when threats come. There is no real counter other than out playing him using terran's advantages in seige and rings while minimizing damage.
1. Wraith DEMANDS you to micro and kill the lord. It is almost REQUIRED for you to flank the muta and hit the overlord from unprotected angles. A Muta have the shortest range of all air units, it is quite easy to kill the overlord on first strike as one salvo of 12 kills one, and most plays don't bring more than half a dozen anyway. If you have enough micro skills relative, it is possible to hit and run the lords and not lose a wraith in the process, especially if his air is fighting some ground units and is stacking. If you can concentrate your stack (use move onto buildings/friendly units) it might also be possible to do lots of damage against a more scattered out stack with hit and runs. If he chases you, run. If he chases you alot, run, cloak turn and shoot (free salvo). While wraith are useless in base assults in muta killing, that is why terrans have seige tanks.
Also, a wraith isn't that expensive as marines can fill in must ground roles when mixed with a few tanks while a zerg player have to use gas expensive hydra for basic combat, and still is out matched on the ground. (2 marines w/ stim kills a hydra on any day)
2. Marines (w stim and medic in BW) can kill anything sort of a huge stack. A marine is more than 4 times cheaper than a muta (due to no gas) but 3 marines can outshoot a muta. It is probably difficult to beat good muta micro-er (they run) with only marines, but it can save you against a muta-rusher or attacks on tank pushes and worker lines. If the enemy is shooting something with high hp or non-vital, remember to organize the marines (no one stream suicide) first before rushing in.
3. Goliath can beat muta on a cost basis, but is generally a inflexible unit in vaillian SC. In BW goliath is VITAL against inevitable Guardian armies if you don't have air.
4. Irradiate: The low tech psi storm. No matter what the opponent does, it is going to hurt. It makes "raiding" with sci-vessals sometimes useful (be sure a line of safe retreat exists though, like over some marines) Because the low range of muta leading to much stacking, irradiate is the perfect weapon against muta whores. Even if the player is a superb microer, he'd still need time to seperate his irradiated muta out of the stack, giving you time to make a hit and run with wraith or warp them up with a ring of (ma)rings.
5. Bunkers, Missile Turrets: They can't be everywhere, and a concentrated attack take down isolated ones. However, do defend the peon line, choke points and such with them and do use them in narrow maps. Playing on a 64x256 map can show you how completely useless mutas are when it can't run.
6. BCs: well, this is late game but BCs slaughter petty much any Zerg unit silly. (save defier and microed scouge). Just support them with marines and tanks under them and TEH FREE WINNNNN
7. Use Strategy, not tactics: Muta -> Guard is the zerg ace in the hole during mid game. Don't give him the initive. If you see a muta rusher build with the early peon scout (pool, gas, no hydra, lots of lings, and especially hive upgrading), go bot and ring on him. If he does muta mid game build go tank push on him and camp a ton of marines and maybe defense structures (if bloody choke point battles break out) and push him to death, as mutas are no good against concentrated, prepared ground forces. Finally, if he is stupid enough to not have killed you and let you get to late game with only mutas, just mass BC and cover them with powerful tanks, marines, sci and goli and just roll em over.
Wraith maybe, but you can always hit and run the lord (or muta if he gives chase) if you have comparable numbers.since mutalisks are so tough and they hit multiple targets wouldn't marines and goliaths and wraiths (if he has overlords) get wasted against mutas?
As for marines and wraith, it is worth it. If he brings lords, feel free to stim the marines and shoot his lord to death if he dares running the mutas away. (or just stim and shoot the lords anyway if you have enough wraith in reserve and the rings are in range) Stimed marines have the best damage to cost ratio sort of lings, and mutas can't take it for that long. (9 + 3 +1 at 50 cooldown vs 6 x 4 at 15 cooldown? no thanks) As for goli it is tough enough and cheap enough to outnumber mutas and soak up fire against less experienced muta users. Muta is expensive, as all teched zerg units needs a hefty gas load to build, while gas is mined at around 1/4 rate of minerals. (that is why crackings is popular late game, because it is gas cheap and a decent ground force against many units) If the numbers are similar, it is definitly worth while to kill those mutas with only mineral cost. (while you tech a few sci vessal to irridate his ass next time he uses mutas)
A frontal muta attack on terrans is suicide. The good muta users like to raid terrans to death by killing peons, expensions and getting out ASAP when threats come. There is no real counter other than out playing him using terran's advantages in seige and rings while minimizing damage.