I hate Games Workshop so much that I can taste it

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-10-06 05:48am

GWS's Necromunda was my all-time favorite miniature battle game. Naturally, I was excited when I heard a revised edition was coming out. I even dropped some extra bucks and ordered it through their UK mail order to get it a month early (or half a year early as it turned out when they pushed back the US release date to January).

I was in for a nasty surprise. Not only did they neglect to fix any of the previous edition's copious errata (most of which could have been fixed with slight re-wordings or an extra sentence here and there), there was even more errata and a great many typos due to a shitty editing job. I'd dropped my money on a revision that was markedly inferior to the original product. I had to double-check to make sure I hadn't picked up a Microsoft product by accident.

So myself and numerous others asked WTF? (though we phrased it more politely) on the GWS Necromunda forum. The moderator on the related GWS 40K Universe forum suggested we make a list of the errata and post it to the Nec forum so the editor working on the Necromunda line could make a note of it for the future.

So myself and others posted some of the errata we found on the Necromunda forum. I'll admit, we did on occasion express our lack of enthusiasm over paying good money for a poorly edited product from a professional company, but for the most part we tried to stay positive. I even included notes about positive aspects of the changes as well as the mistakes in editing.

GWS's response? They're fucking deleting the posts referring to any errata. They're even deleting old posts asking about the revised release date. They've even erased my post asking if the next Necromunda magazine was going to be available in US stores, for fuck's sake! Heaven forfend if I ask if I can get their product locally*.

*(Here's another nice little "Fuck you for your loyalty" from GWS, this time for the US retailers -- they're going to discontinue making mini blisters for Specialist Games' products available to independent stores. The rulebooks will still be available, but the minis -- the big money part of the biz -- will only be available through mail order or bitz orders (the latter a time-consuming pain-in-the-ass special order option for retailers). The GWS rep for our local store even told them that they'd be expected to push the Specialist Games harder since the customers would have to go online for the minis. That's like Pepsi asking the local convenience store to encourage people to buy their soda in cases at Safeway instead. Assholes.)

Consequently, half the Goddamn posts in the Necromunda forum are asking questions that have been answered numerous times but the threads addressing them have been deleted. And you know what the most embarrassing/insulting part of it? They're not even doing a good job destroying the evidence. All of the thread headers contain the original number of posts, including the ones that have been subsequently deleted.

If myself and others were just trashing their product, I could understand them wanting to ditch the posts, but most of the posts in question were genuine attempts to contribute toward improving their product. Hell, if they'd prefer that those topics be addressed elsewhere, that's fine, too. But providing a forum for input then simply erasing any criticism is a fucking slap in the face.

FUCK YOU, GAMES WORKSHOP! FUCK YOU RIGHT IN YOUR STUPID ASSES!

I spent a fair amount of money on GWS's products over the years and have encouraged others to do that same because I enjoyed their work. But if this is how customer loyalty is rewarded, then to hell with them. I'm through paying money for their products and I'm though encouraging anyone else to do the same. If I ever run a Necromunda campaign again, I'm using the old rules and I'll give bonuses to any players whose gangs are made of non-GWS minis, I hate the company that much right now.

-- Joe Momma

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-10-06 09:12am

According to the local GW guy the only things they changed was sustained fire weapons (because they no longer make the dice) and what equipment each gang could start with.

If i heard correctly they also made a pigs ear of the susatined fire rules as well, completely removing the Jam, one of the most brilliant and at the same time infuriating things about sustained fire.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-10-06 11:31am

I still have my sustained fire dice (I have 5). They make for such lovely idiot-proof D3s.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-10-06 12:14pm

Games Workshop has been this way since the beginning. I remember friends bitching about "lets make more money" antics from them back in the 80's and WH40K.

Remember when Rhino's came two in a box? I do. I cant say I blame them too much. If they have a loyal fan base that keeps ponying up money then the abuse of the customer will continue.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-10-06 01:28pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Remember when Rhino's came two in a box?

Is that the same period as 30 Imp. Guard in a box for a tenner?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-10-06 01:43pm

2000AD wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:Remember when Rhino's came two in a box?
Is that the same period as 30 Imp. Guard in a box for a tenner?

It was around 1987-1989. Your comment does jog the memory. I remember a big box of Guardsmen. I dont remember what it cost. I was in high school then and the price would have been american dollars anyway.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-10-06 01:49pm

yeah and the Gurd used the same vehicles as the Marines....Guard land speeder...Thud gun... Tarantula.....Quad laser.... Guard Rhino,Land Raider and Predator....

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-10-06 04:10pm

2000AD wrote:According to the local GW guy the only things they changed was sustained fire weapons (because they no longer make the dice) and what equipment each gang could start with.

They also changed the hand flamers since they no longer make the smaller flame template (they now act like exterminators) and added a rule for high Strength (7+) weapons to take out people a bit more easily (sort of a watered down version of the overkill rules from WH40K).

2000AD wrote:If i heard correctly they also made a pigs ear of the susatined fire rules as well, completely removing the Jam, one of the most brilliant and at the same time infuriating things about sustained fire.

The SF shots are worked out individually now (using the samesystem as Gorkamorka, IIRC), so they have the same chance of jamming as regular shots.

Overall, the changes aren't much to speak of. I like the overkill rule and slightly prefer the new SF system (though really it's a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" change). I never used hand flamers much anyway so I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.

The new House equipment rules however suck IMO. Interesting idea, lousy application. Most of the people I talked to or seen post on various forums either tweaked them or dumped them entirely.

I still don't know if I've adequately expressed what a shitty editting job GWS did either. It took me all of an afternoon to gather all of the official errata from the web, sort out which items didn't need to be included in an errata sheet as they were already adequately explained in the rules if you read them, and sort the rest out in page order of their appearance in the rules. I guess GWS's revised edition editor couldn't find three hours to do this because he was busy putting typos in while cutting and pasting.

The arrangement of some of the background material was sloppy, too. There are two full-page fluff pieces early on in the book. On the plus side, both pieces are actually fairly entertaining and help establish the atmosphere of Necromunda. There are two serious negatives if you're not already familiar with the Necromunda background though (which I was).

The first story is about a ganger that has been sold to the guilders and turned into a pit slave. This is about as confusing an introductory piece as you can get as you have no idea what any of the factions are and how they or the character's situation relate to game-play (which frankly the story doesn't really relate at all unless you're playing a home-brew scenario). The second piece is better in this regard as it features a lone heavy fighting a pit slave. However, this leads us to the second problem with both pieces: they heavily feature pit slaves but don't include rules for pit slaves either as hired guns or as a gang. That's like introducing a Lord of the Rings game by using excerpts from the Mines of Moria and Helm's Deep battles then not bothering to include rules for goblins, orcs, and uruk-hai.

(BTW, the Pit Slaves gang rules are available on the Necromunda site, though getting there is a little counter-intuitive due to the goofy webpage layout used.)

A simple one-page description of the background as a preface would have helped immensely. There is more extensive fluff in the back of the book and I can understand some of the rationale for putting the rules up front, but a little intro primer for people new to the game would make it a bit more user-friendly IMO.

Here's another gripe while I'm beeee-yotching. GWS held off on including any of the Outlanders material because they're still revising it. Fair enough, though the only rules I really had a problem with was that the Spyrers may have been a little overpowered (getting a House gang Outlawed might have sucked too, but we never used those rules in our games anyway). Then, in Necromunda Magazine vol 2 no. 1, released concurrently with the Necromunda: Underhive revised rulebook, they included the rules for Treacherous Conditions and Leadership Challenges. WITH NO FUCKING CHANGES. The fact that there were no changes in and of itself is fine, since there weren't any problems with those rules IMO. However, if they weren't being changes why not just include them in the fucking rulebook?

-- Joe Momma

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-10-10 10:49pm

This is why my gaming group is sticking firmly with the old Necromunda rules which we've had 6 or so years to engineer to a working system.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-10-11 02:30am

Does anyone here play their LoTR game?

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-10-11 12:15pm

Gandalf wrote:Does anyone here play their LoTR game?

I'm a bit pissed off at that, as when i heard they were negotiating for the rights to LoTR i wondered about buying some shares in them (as i have been saying i would do for ages.) but i didn't go through with it. Now look

Commander_Arvel_Crynyd · Post by **Commander_Arvel_Crynyd** » 2003-10-12 10:23pm

Gandalf wrote:Does anyone here play their LoTR game?

I do ive been playing it for 6 months or so. the lack of opponents is extremely annoying

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-10-13 06:06am

weemadando wrote:This is why my gaming group is sticking firmly with the old Necromunda rules which we've had 6 or so years to engineer to a working system.

My group's sticking with the old rules, too. We'll tweak things from time to time, but usually end up going back to the vanilla rules out of some perverse appreciation for the goofiness inherent in the system.

What sort of modifications have you guys made to the system? Most of our changes revolved around making the advancement system a little more coherent (though still with a strong random factor) and making movement a bit more realistic (no running full speed up and down ladders while carrying items in both hands).

Gandalf wrote:Does anyone here play their LoTR game?

I haven't played it myself, but some of my more dedicated wargamer pals have and enjoyed it quite a bit.

They really like Warmaster, too -- it's like Warhammer Fantasy with actual troops making up the bulk of it instead of ubercharacters and magic. They also like the realistic uncertainty of the command system in which the troops don't always do what you wanted them to.

So of course GWS is giving it minimal support.

Meanwhile, back on the Necromunda forum, I just keep reposting my comments when they get deleted while noting that I've posted these items before only to see them removed without comment. I have this tragicomic feeling that the mod Matt Keefe, who if I understand correctly is also the "editor" (assuming fucking up a cut'n'paste job can be described as editing) of the revised edition, would just ban me, except as noted above he can't even figure out how to remove the offending posts without leaving the original page and post counts intact. One thread currently as 12 replies...and only shows five now.

-- Joe Momma

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-10-13 06:36am

I remember going to a convention, when I could not offord any GW models etc, with a "Bare bones" army (literally a print out), Japanese models at same scale as figures, being subbed for warwalkers, falcons, bikes etc (My jetbikes were Akira & Mospeda models), I used toy soldiers with cheap hobby store hex bases etc. They actually told me it was against the rules because I didn't buy GW products. I pointed out the page in the fucking 40k manual where it says you can use chits of PAPER for units. Besides the flame thrower and Bazooka toysodliers are OBVIOUSLY my Melta troops and by Reapers right?

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-10-13 05:52pm

Anyone know what's up with the Mysterious Vanishing Imperial Guard units? Last I checked, Leman Russ Exterminators were released a year or two ago. The new Codex does not contain an entry for them, nor does it depict them in any way, shape, or form throughout the Codex. Same with Vanquishers, WTF?

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2003-10-13 06:54pm

JediNeophyte wrote:Anyone know what's up with the Mysterious Vanishing Imperial Guard units? Last I checked, Leman Russ Exterminators were released a year or two ago. The new Codex does not contain an entry for them, nor does it depict them in any way, shape, or form throughout the Codex. Same with Vanquishers, WTF?

Exterminators and Griffons have been removed, and AFAIK the kits aren't being sold anymore either. I believe you're still allowed to use them if you've got the model and the old codex. I also heard somewhere that they might be reappearing for an Armoured Company list.

I don't know anything about the Vanquishers being gone, but since FW is still making models presumably there are at least rules in one of the Imperial Armour books.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-10-14 02:35am

JediNeophyte wrote:Anyone know what's up with the Mysterious Vanishing Imperial Guard units? Last I checked, Leman Russ Exterminators were released a year or two ago. The new Codex does not contain an entry for them, nor does it depict them in any way, shape, or form throughout the Codex. Same with Vanquishers, WTF?

GWS has gotten really weird with their units lately (there's a quote begging to be taken out of context). Look at the recent Eye of Terror campaign. The Stormtroopers (and especially their Cadian-specific versions, the Kasrkin) were a notable Guard type for the campaign. So of course they stop putting out the Stormtrooper Sgts. and Specialists a month before the campaign. "You know those cool troop types we emphasized for this campaign? Just make do with the basic troops only, no leaders or weapons specialists for you!"

The Kasrkin finally came out a month later, but now I've heard rumors to the effect that the standard Stormtroopers will be discontinued, so good luck if you wanted to field both types in an army.

There's also the matter of the really cool mutant blister pack they put out for Eye of Terror, which everyone was pumped for (I even bought a pack for Necromunda extras). That turned out to be a one-time-only thing. That was a couple of months ago and the two local game stores still get weekly customer requests for them.

I swear to God, it's like the GWS marketing team got the "10 tips to make your customers happy" and "10 ways to fuck your customers in the ass without lubricant" lists mixed-up.

I still think a lot of this goes back to when GWS went public stock. A lot of their goofier business decisions seem to be attempts to jack up quarterly at the cost of building a larger and steadier long-term base.

-- Joe Momma

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-10-14 03:30am

I srtill have Rogue Trader abnd the $0k companion and Warhammer seie with those youn can do states for your own tanks and well ch1ts are acceptable .

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-10-14 06:20am

I'm pissed off because i've just got Firewarrior for the PC and it keeps crashing!

When i try to start the first level or when i fire a gun in the training level it will just close the program !!!

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-10-14 05:59pm

Joe Momma wrote:GWS has gotten really weird with their units lately (there's a quote begging to be taken out of context). Look at the recent Eye of Terror campaign. The Stormtroopers (and especially their Cadian-specific versions, the Kasrkin) were a notable Guard type for the campaign. So of course they stop putting out the Stormtrooper Sgts. and Specialists a month before the campaign. "You know those cool troop types we emphasized for this campaign? Just make do with the basic troops only, no leaders or weapons specialists for you!"

The Kasrkin finally came out a month later, but now I've heard rumors to the effect that the standard Stormtroopers will be discontinued, so good luck if you wanted to field both types in an army.

There's also the matter of the really cool mutant blister pack they put out for Eye of Terror, which everyone was pumped for (I even bought a pack for Necromunda extras). That turned out to be a one-time-only thing. That was a couple of months ago and the two local game stores still get weekly customer requests for them.

I swear to God, it's like the GWS marketing team got the "10 tips to make your customers happy" and "10 ways to fuck your customers in the ass without lubricant" lists mixed-up.

I still think a lot of this goes back to when GWS went public stock. A lot of their goofier business decisions seem to be attempts to jack up quarterly at the cost of building a larger and steadier long-term base.

-- Joe Momma

Weird indeed. I've got plenty of Stormtroopers at least, even a few old model beret-wearing ones (who I now use as Hardened Veterans). The Griffons were sort of pointless so I could see why they were removed, but I have an Exterminator and its extremely useful. I'm all for the increased emphasis on the common infantryman in the new Codex, but they friggin' neutered the other half of the Guard, the thundering hordes of steel beasts. There are now four entries in the Heavy Support section: Heavy Weapons Platoon (which isn't even a vehicle), Leman Russ (same old same old), Leman Russ Demolisher, and Basilisk. Only two MBTs, one of which is expensive and specialized! Oi vey!

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-10-14 06:28pm

The Exterminator was brilliant against troop armies like orks and other imp. guard!