Fallout 3 trailer: June 5. Page updated with AWESOME.

[Cao Cao]

I especially like how Cao Cao is parading screen-shots from the internal alpha of Van Buren as if they were the second coming. Honestly, they kind of look like shit, even by the standards of the time they were made.

The quality of Van Buren's incomplete graphics isn't the issue. The point is the design transition from sprites to 3D that Black Isle themselves were making supports my position.

[Hotfoot]

What are you? Deficient? Even the box art shows that the shoulders are nothing like the new version.

Nothing like? Bullshit. They still go out to forever, they're still bolted on in the same place, the only thing that's changed is that they look a little different.

And yeah, you don't care about sprites. And now renders too. Hey, why should we care about anything in the original Fallout! Fuck it!

Let's see, shit renders that look utterly inhuman and unrealistic because the technology of the time was shit, and sprites that look like shit because that's all they could do. Yeah, find me giving a shit about those. Cry me a fucking river, bitch.

Perhaps you missed the big ol' box on Vader's chest? Which gives an impression of boxiness?

The ONE FUCKING PANEL that is barely the size of an outstretched palm? THAT makes it boxy? Even with the fucking rounded helmet, the rounded shoulders, and the rounded boots? Fucking hell, how moronic can you get? Go jump off a cliff already, it's clear that your hatred and fanboyism of a game that never existed except in your mind are more important than what's in front you.

You moron. My point is that Van Buren's PA followed the original design and not your wanktastic Bethesda armour. It's too fucking bad if you don't like it. That's the original. That's how it always was. Bethesda's armour does not resemble the original in any shape or form apart from the helmet so kindly shut the hell up until you know what you're talking about.

The Bethesda armor follows the original design too, but takes a slightly different take on it than the Van Buren version. Why don't you sit the fuck down, quit your bitching, and accept that while they kept a large part of the art style from the original, they made changes as they saw fit.

Seriously, your head is so far up your ass I'm beginning to wonder if you're digesting your brain. The parts are still there, they're still roughly the same size, the helmet is virtually identical, the only difference is that there's a lot more detail and some minor changes to the design, such as the general shape of the pauldrons.

Now I want you to fucking pay attention, because this is important. This is fucking boxy.

and this is not

Do you understand that? Or are you going to say the Mk2 is boxy because it has a box SOMEWHERE on the design?

[Cao Cao]

Nothing like? Bullshit. They still go out to forever, they're still bolted on in the same place, the only thing that's changed is that they look a little different.

Changing from round and smooth to flat and boxy is not "a little different".

Let's see, shit renders that look utterly inhuman and unrealistic because the technology of the time was shit, and sprites that look like shit because that's all they could do. Yeah, find me giving a shit about those. Cry me a fucking river, bitch.

Yeah, the Fallout 1 intro isn't in HDR bloom antialiased hi res so it's shit! Let's ignore our past because it's shit!

The ONE FUCKING PANEL that is barely the size of an outstretched palm? THAT makes it boxy? Even with the fucking rounded helmet, the rounded shoulders, and the rounded boots? Fucking hell, how moronic can you get?

It gives a general impression enough for a throwaway comparison. This is not a scientific debate.

Go jump off a cliff already, it's clear that your hatred and fanboyism of a game that never existed except in your mind are more important than what's in front you.

Because I think Bethesda's armour is rubbish? That's the definition of fanboy to you?
Frankly your reactions to my opinion seem far more fanboyish.

The Bethesda armor follows the original design too, but takes a slightly different take on it than the Van Buren version. Why don't you sit the fuck down, quit your bitching, and accept that while they kept a large part of the art style from the original,

Bullshit. The art style is different, the lines are different, everything is different except for the helmet.

they made changes as they saw fit.

If they want to make such changes, why don't they make their own post-apocalyptic series instead of leeching off of Fallout?

[Hotfoot]

Changing from round and smooth to flat and boxy is not "a little different".

It's little enough that MOST people who saw the video went "sweet, BoS armor! Awesome!", not "ZOMG THIS SUCKS!" You're very much alone on this point pal, the general shape was achieved through slightly different means. So it's not space marine pauldrons, deal with it.

Yeah, the Fallout 1 intro isn't in HDR bloom antialiased hi res so it's shit! Let's ignore our past because it's shit!

Hey dipshit, notice the parts where I specifically said it looked INHUMAN? Like no living being could get inside of that thing and fit? Get a clue! CG of that time looked cartoonish not because it was meant to be, but because it couldn't be anything BUT.

It gives a general impression enough for a throwaway comparison. This is not a scientific debate.

No, it doesn't! No rational person would look at Darth fucking Vader and say, "Huh, he looks boxy".

Because I think Bethesda's armour is rubbish? That's the definition of fanboy to you?
Frankly your reactions to my opinion seem far more fanboyish.

No, because you think it's so massively different from the original, just BECAUSE it's Bethesda, and not what you expected from your leaked alpha of Van Buren. That there are several other people who can look at the same picture and go, "sweet, that looks like it's pretty much straight out of Fallout 1" says to me that you're tweaked.

Bullshit. The art style is different, the lines are different, everything is different except for the helmet.

Wah wah, your precious Van Buren bullshit is different too! They even changed the helmet! Why don't you bitch about that?

If they want to make such changes, why don't they make their own post-apocalyptic series instead of leeching off of Fallout?

Why didn't Van Buren? They made changes too! Shit, why don't we stop making sequels if we're going to change even the smallest thing?

[Pablo Sanchez]

The quality of Van Buren's incomplete graphics isn't the issue. The point is the design transition from sprites to 3D that Black Isle themselves were making supports my position.

Your position being that the very first objective of Bethesda's Fallout 3 art team should be to exactly recreate the way things looked in Fallouts 1, 2, and the Van Buren tech demo, and thus, the slight cosmetic differences in the cuirass and pauldrons of the powered armor from the teaser are a devastating problem not to be overcome by any means.

Honestly, I don't care if everything in Fallout 3 is an exact recreation of Black Isle's designs, and I think most sane people agree with me. I'm looking for it to be a good game that captures the spirit of the Fallout series, that tragicomic 1950s post-apocalypse sensibility. The attention to detail shown in the power armor helmet, the pitch-perfect soundtrack, and the mere fact that Bethesda is picking up a series that hasn't seen a good release since 1998, all point to the conclusion that they are taking this very seriously.

Sadly for them, there's a contingent of fans like you, who will probably accept nothing but Fallout 2.5. It's pointless to argue about whether or not the powered armor in the clip precisely matches the way Black Isle would have done it, if they'd had their druthers, because that doesn't matter at all to any reasonable person. It's like saying that Jack Nicholson was a terrible choice for the Joker in 1989's "Batman" because his nose was the wrong shape.

[InnocentBystander]

I suppose the "classic" armor looks more "space age"; is that what the power armor is supposed to look like?

[Adrian Laguna]

You know I do agree with Cao Cao that the new armour looks considerably boxier than the old one. What I can't fathom is why anyone would give a fuck.

[brianeyci]

Well at least he's not saying that the trailer looks like ass because of the color scheme.

I'm serious: some people are lamenting that there aren't enough orange and yellows in the trailer and that it's all grey. Nevermind that this is on the East coast, and unless you're saying Fallout can only be in the desert, it doesn't matter.

I wonder what kind of city they're thinking of. Something out of a Charlton Heston movie, instead of an anonymous industrial slagheap that the trailer and screens are making it out. The last screen before the trailer perfectly captured the colossal waste of America -- the pollution, the steel girders, a monument to the American way of life converted into a waste processing plant. I bet some people would want that all yellow and sandy too .

Space age does have some merit. After all we got the laser rifles and energy weapons. Abandoning it is abandoning part of Fallout 1. But I'll be very honest: if they entirely ditch the space age motif and Flash Gordon weapons, I won't really give a shit. I don't think that the comic book motif necessarily suits the Fallout universe, and it isn't the main message. So if Fallout 3 has more grit and less comic book look, good for them.

[Academia Nut]

I think the Fallout series has the unique position of being an awesome series that has somehow attracted a fanbase so toxic that it makes the post-nuclear wasteland from the games look like a sterile operating theatre. Honestly, you would think that this teaser would be enough to reassure all the fanboys that yes, they are getting another Fallout game, but they will simply harp on the tiniest little thing because fundamentally, they don't want Fallout 3, they want Fallout 1. In fact, my friend who somehow inexplicably said that the teaser looked like shit said explicitly in an earlier conversation that if a new Fallout was released that was basically exactly the same as the first two, but with a somewhat different plot and setting that he hadn't already memorized, then that would be the best possible situation.

Not even trektards are this stupid.

[Vympel]

I think the Fallout series has the unique position of being an awesome series that has somehow attracted a fanbase so toxic that it makes the post-nuclear wasteland from the games look like a sterile operating theatre. Honestly, you would think that this teaser would be enough to reassure all the fanboys that yes, they are getting another Fallout game, but they will simply harp on the tiniest little thing because fundamentally, they don't want Fallout 3, they want Fallout 1.

It's probably partly a result of Fallout 2 being identical to Fallout in terms of engine.

As far as this hilarious armor debate is concerned, the quote I posted above is in relation to the power armor as it appears in Van Buren/ Fallout 3. Leaving aside that the F3 tech demo looks like ass today (unfortunately), they had to make changes to get the power armor to work. Bethesda's version is in any event obviously far superior.

[RazorOutlaw]

I'm serious: some people are lamenting that there aren't enough orange and yellows in the trailer and that it's all grey. Nevermind that this is on the East coast, and unless you're saying Fallout can only be in the desert, it doesn't matter.

Frankly the inclusion of an area other truly paints a more depressing picture. Not that the game doesn't have its own personal victories, or even victories for the surviving human population, but I always wondered if it had just been the West coast that had been hit so hard.

I'm not up to snuff on my Fallout lore, but I thought that perhaps the East Coast had survived better. To see that it hasn't already makes it seem all the more grim.

[brianeyci]

Yeah I was wondering whether the East Coast survived better too. Whether or not China had the technological prowress to obliterate the US in this universe. Well it looks like it did.

Normally I would think a civilization with the technology to make powered armor suits immune to small arms fire could make a functional ABM. Guess not .

How about we discuss something cool. Like what kind of science would've been necessary to actually make a powered armor. Do we have to resort to unbotanium? Or are the firearms in the Fallout universe weaker? Or do we assume that without game mechanics, powered armor sucks and a rifle could shoot through it? Something like powered armor would require an IV to keep the soldier inside from overheating especially in the desert... is it all just handwaivum?

[Stark]

It's awesome that the old power armour design was too 'small', so you'd get clipping everywhere... but they should have done it anyway! They should have FOUND A WAY!

No amount of story explanation (like zomg it is after a nuclah war and people are jury-rigging their armour) will satisfy these people. It MUST look EXACTLY the same of they'll WHINGE. *EXACTLY* the same. Not instantly recognisable. Not updated for 2007. *EXACTLY* the same.



Now, is BOS supposed to be in DC? I thought they were West coast?

And PS they have power armour because it's retro scifi and it's in the playbook

[Vympel]

Yeah I was wondering whether the East Coast survived better too. Whether or not China had the technological prowress to obliterate the US in this universe. Well it looks like it did.

Normally I would think a civilization with the technology to make powered armor suits immune to small arms fire could make a functional ABM. Guess not .

How about we discuss something cool. Like what kind of science would've been necessary to actually make a powered armor. Do we have to resort to unbotanium? Or are the firearms in the Fallout universe weaker? Or do we assume that without game mechanics, powered armor sucks and a rifle could shoot through it? Something like powered armor would require an IV to keep the soldier inside from overheating especially in the desert... is it all just handwaivum?

Check out the Fallout Wiki. It's got all the Fallout lore you can shake a stick at re: Power Armor specs. Taken directly from stuff in the games, or alternately, Chris Avellone's Fallout Bible series.

I still love the "you drink pee pee!" taunt from the kids in New Reno when they ask you about going to the bathroom in Power Armor ...

Now, is BOS supposed to be in DC? I thought they were West coast?

It'd be weird if the BoS was on the East Coast. With probably no transport and no support infrastructure for the refuelling of say, captured Enclave Vertibirds, crossing from West to East Coast would take fucking ages, to say the least, and would be a logistics nightmare for any group large enough to be worth a damn.

[Utsanomiko]

BoS Is the Midwest. Illinois, Missouri, Kansas and Nebraska chiefly.

Also, I'm puzzled as to what's so wrong with the Fallout 3 brotherhood Power Armor when it's a hell of a lot closer to FO1's design than the released Van Buren alpha model. It moves a few accessories around and squared up the shoulders and chest, but the Van Buren one totally botches major details like practically turning the shoulders into wings and bolting them onto the middle of the chest, nor do I recall power armor having sculpted pecks like that.

[Academia Nut]

Wrong Brotherhood. You're thinkin of the Eastern Brotherhood from Fallout Tactics, which is only considered semi-canonical. In any case the Eastern Brotherhood is an offshoot of the one in the west. It is explicitly stated in Fallout 1 that the BoS is a post-apocalyptic group composed of soldiers who deserted immediately before the war when they found out what the scientists they were guarding were doing. While the power armour is not unique to them, being as their suits are pre-war models maintained with a psuedo-religious zeal only outdone by the AdMech from 40k, their symbol is unique, so how they got to the East Coast will definitely need to be adequately addressed by Bethseda.

[Ford Prefect]

It'd be weird if the BoS was on the East Coast. With probably no transport and no support infrastructure for the refuelling of say, captured Enclave Vertibirds, crossing from West to East Coast would take fucking ages, to say the least, and would be a logistics nightmare for any group large enough to be worth a damn.

Well, doesn't the Brotherhood get the Chosen One to capture Vertibird plans? Depending on the year in Fallout 3, they may have developed the required infrastructure.

[Vympel]

Well, doesn't the Brotherhood get the Chosen One to capture Vertibird plans? Depending on the year in Fallout 3, they may have developed the required infrastructure.

Good memory, I forgot about that. It would still be pretty difficult- you'd pretty much have to build a fleet of Vertibirds, and then choose a spot to land close to the extent of their range, build a base, stock it with fuel-

Shit. Fuel. Wasn't the Enclave Oil Rig supplying the Vertibirds with their fuel? The President in Fallout 2 says that Navarro was necessary as a refuelling point for the Vertibirds, right?

It's doubtful if the Brotherhood could even find fuel for the Vertibirds, given that oil in the world had virtually run out (being the cause of the war and all).

[Ford Prefect]

How could I forget? RON PEARLMAN says as much - the last war was over its weapons: petroleum and uranium. Could they be using micro-fusion cells then, hypothetically? Admittedly, I'm not sure that they could produce more of those.

EDIT: Though if the Brotherhood could do it, you'd think the Enclave would too.

[Vympel]

I'm getting this distinct vibe that Vertibirds were refuelled with actual fuel as opposed to the power cells that powered the Chosen One's Highwayman (and presumably all the other cars on the road). Literally stopped myself mid-post as I was typing the above when I realised.

I'm not sure if there was an actual quote in Fallout 2 to that effect, I need to play the game again to check.

That reminds me, what're the "ultimate" builds for Fallout and Fallout 2 respectively? I want to be a gamey bastard and play them both again at least once or twice before Fallout 3 comes out next year.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, I asked some advice on Fallout when I got the games recently. I ended up with the following suggestion for Fallout 2:

ST 5
PE 7
EN 4
CH 6
IN 7
AG 10
LK 8

Fast Shot
Gifted

Tag Skills:
Speech
Small Guns
Lockpick

Because apparently you can end up with this:

ST 10
PE 8
EN 4
CH 8 (but -2 from implants)
IN 8
AG 10
LK 10

Also, charisma is supposed to be useless in Fallout 1, so you might not want to make too much a deal out of that one. High Agility is suggested though (more action points = win). You can get away with a remarkably low endurance though, so you can pump up Perception.

[Nephtys]

ST6
EN4
PE8
AGI8/9/10
INT8/9/10
CHA4/5/6
LCK4/5/6

Gifted
(Optional) Fast Shot/BloodyMess/Smallframe

[Cao Cao]

Hey dipshit, notice the parts where I specifically said it looked INHUMAN? Like no living being could get inside of that thing and fit?

Ironically the new armour looks far less comfortable to fit in than the old one.

Get a clue! CG of that time looked cartoonish not because it was meant to be, but because it couldn't be anything BUT.

Bullshit! And furthermore, Fallout was MEANT to look comic-booky. You obviously have no damn clue about Fallout at all, do you?

No, it doesn't! No rational person would look at Darth fucking Vader and say, "Huh, he looks boxy".

Opinion is such a wonderful thing.

No, because you think it's so massively different from the original, just BECAUSE it's Bethesda, and not what you expected from your leaked alpha of Van Buren. That there are several other people who can look at the same picture and go, "sweet, that looks like it's pretty much straight out of Fallout 1" says to me that you're tweaked.

I comment on Bethesda taking unnecessary liberties with a classic design and that makes me a fanboy?

Wah wah, your precious Van Buren bullshit is different too! They even changed the helmet! Why don't you bitch about that?

Because I'm not against change?

Why didn't Van Buren? They made changes too! Shit, why don't we stop making sequels if we're going to change even the smallest thing?

They made needed changes to fit their 3D engine. Bethesda have no such requirement.
Regardless, if Black fucking Isle wanted to make changes to their creation then they have every right. Bethesda on the other hand don't. They could've made their own brand of Power Armour just as Fallout 2 made Enclave armour but oh no, they have to mess with the original design for no reason because they feel like it with fanboys and apologists like you cheering them along.

It's awesome that the old power armour design was too 'small', so you'd get clipping everywhere... but they should have done it anyway! They should have FOUND A WAY!

Black Isle found a way around 4 years ago..

No amount of story explanation (like zomg it is after a nuclah war and people are jury-rigging their armour) will satisfy these people. It MUST look EXACTLY the same of they'll WHINGE. *EXACTLY* the same. Not instantly recognisable.

Except, you know, it's Brotherhood of Steel armour and the BoS has kept their suits in good, original condition with access to numerous spare parts. But now, suddenly they need to jury-rig everything except the helmet! Whatever.

And yes, it is BoS armour.

Not updated for 2007. *EXACTLY* the same.

Because naturally, armour constructed in 2077 in an alternate retro-50s universe where vacuum tube technology is still king should be updated for 2007.

[Ace Pace]

I comment on Bethesda taking unnecessary liberties with a classic design and that makes me a fanboy?

Yes. Styles change, games change. Show me a series that over time has remained the same? Not even the yearly sports games stay constant.

[Vympel]

They made needed changes to fit their 3D engine. Bethesda have no such requirement.
Regardless, if Black fucking Isle wanted to make changes to their creation then they have every right. Bethesda on the other hand don't. They could've made their own brand of Power Armour just as Fallout 2 made Enclave armour but oh no, they have to mess with the original design for no reason because they feel like it with fanboys and apologists like you cheering them along.

Bethesda has "no right" to change the power armor? WTF? How do you figure? Their licence, their game, they can do whatever they want. They did good- everyone instantly recognized this power armor for what it was. There's no appreciable differnece to the original for most, and more importantly, it looks good.

As for Black Isle's changes- it looks like total ass. How you insist that the Black Isle modification is somehow superior when it has no detail to speak of whatsoever (unsurprising, given Bethesda's far superior engine) is a mystery.