Tropes vs Women in Video Games pt 1 is out.

[Stark]

Predilection for solving problems through violence and a demonstration of superior physical stamina, in a heirarchy built on an instinct to consider the most sexually virile and powerful person as a leader? That's traditionally masculine.

Sexism is everywhere.

Anyway, there's a comic out there about Samus, the gist of which is that on top of being an unstoppable warrior beyond the conception of the band of men we call the Federation, but that she is also someone who honestly cares about people and wants to help the victims of the enemies she fights. Is this 'because' she's a 'woman'? Would this be any different at all if she was a man? Of course not. These are not sexual characteristics; they're character qualities. The whole idea that men and women have special characteristics is what drives this sexism in the first place - men are hyper-masculine 1.5m wide tough men who yell and punch, women are 30-inch waists that cry and hug things.

[CaptHawkeye]

No seriously, sexism is everywhere. You often can't walk into a normal job climate without seeing gender-stereotypes still dominating work roles. How many people here still chuckle at the idea of a male nurse? Or a female construction worker? These are still very, very real problems. So I guess it's inevitable that western media, a business enterprise, often furthers these stereotypes because of a desire to minimize effort and costs.

It's stupid though because businesses do in fact have a stake in social progress, they just don't realize it.

[Stark]

Exactly; because certain attributes are still identified with gender. Are you brave, violent, and unwilling to compromise? You are probably a man! Are you caring, passive, and easily lost? You're probably a woman!

The worst part is that even in video games they try to give male characters motivations that aren't stupid, like 'Marcus loves his dad and Anya' and 'Nolan North wants to be a hero' and 'Artyom wants to help his station', but female characters still get 80s action movie plots. MASH A TO NOT GET RAPED! GO ON A DATE WITH BOYFRIEND! SHOES SO HOT RIGHT NOW!

[Shinova]

In an ideal world we wouldn't treat a woman who shoots up baddies and saves the world any different from a man who does the same, but our society considers doing those things to be masculine. It's probably not a perfect example, but the main character of Pride and Prejudice doesn't fight baddies and save her country, but still can be considered a hero who shapes her own future, as much as she can get away with in the setting of Victorian England (or an earlier period). She's a hero, but her story keeps her battle is a traditionally feminine context.

As long as those social expectations of each sex remains, a woman who shoots up baddies and saves worlds gets called a man with boobs.

[Stark]

You forgot the 'by sexist people' on the end, there. Culture changes when it's challenged; people who say 'that's how it is' are just a part of the problem. When culture changes, there's always resistance but it almost always fails (look at the hilarious feminist movement in the UK). People need to be confronted with the idea at their attitudes are sexist for them to change, and through individuals cultures.

It's a consistent surprise to me that openly sexist cultures (like Japan) can actually do strong female characters fine when they want to, but western culture appears to simply shrug and accept the status quo and thus reinforce it.

[TheFeniX]

It's a consistent surprise to me that openly sexist cultures (like Japan) can actually do strong female characters fine when they want to, but western culture appears to simply shrug and accept the status quo and thus reinforce it.

That's not entirely true. When Bethsesda and Obsidian aren't busy making the most broken games that somehow manage to still function (Brink aside), they play the field with female characters that range from strong and interesting to shallow and forgettable. But they aren't afraid to put women wherever they feel like it and they generally stay away from insulting portrayals of women as far as I've seen.

On the other hand, BW (among others) broke somehow after 2000 or so, because many of their older games didn't shy away from women being something other than sex objects. The Asari were kind of a "um... ok" point in an otherwise solid game. I didn't bother with ME2, but I did read up on it and have a friend who played the Hell out of it, so correct me if I'm wrong: ME2 turns it up to 11 with Miranda (the "perfect woman") fighting to define herself.... while the game camera throws ass shots at you non-stop. And you "fix" Jack by giving her the dick, which is the only way to close out her storyline, and you have the choice of two Asari, both of which are defined by the fact that sex with them will kill you. Certain companies really seem to have just said "fuck it" and can't even bother to just make forgettable women. Instead we get Robot Camel-Toe and PG-13 Cortana nudity, because even AI needs to be fuckable.

[Stark]

Ok, you got me. I really liked the women in Alpha Protocol, in that they were individuals with their own attitudes who responded to the plot in an interesting way. So far away from BW 'romance' it is a lol. :v

Cortana is hilarious because she got more and more sexualised over the games, to the point in Reach that the plot was basically a Cortana handjob. Mummy says you're special! Release endorphins!

But I mean good female characters can use 'typical' sexist attitudes to hold a mirror to the society that holds them - like Captain Nagumo in Patlabor, whose gender is basically irrelevant 99% of the time and only becomes relevant when others project their gender roles on her, which can show us that our expectations of how people will act actually shapes their actions and self-confirms. Is she 'masculine' because she does things by the book? Is being rule abiding a trait of men?

[Dread Not]

I didn't bother with ME2, but I did read up on it and have a friend who played the Hell out of it, so correct me if I'm wrong: ME2 turns it up to 11 with Miranda (the "perfect woman") fighting to define herself.... while the game camera throws ass shots at you non-stop.

Fairly accurate.

And you "fix" Jack by giving her the dick, which is the only way to close out her storyline,

Not true, which is particularly good because you can obviously only "give her the dick" if you choose to be a male character. You "fix" her by doing her loyalty mission, allowing her to confront her past. She's one of the three main romance options for a male Shepherd, only one of which you can choose, and whether or not you choose to romance her has a fairly minimal impact on her mental state and personality. In addition to romancing her, you also have the option to fuck her early after recruiting her which does little to nothing to affect her character.

and you have the choice of two Asari, both of which are defined by the fact that sex with them will kill you.

Also not true. Two asari will attack each other and you choose which one to assist and recruit, the other of which will die. One of them is an ardat-yakshi, meaning that her bonding with another individual will damage their brain and kill them. After you've completed the game you have the option to do some Vulcan mind-boning with her which will end up killing you. The other asari will express romantic interest in you if you are a paragon character, but refuses to act on them. Even if it were an option, she's not an ardat-yakshi so it wouldn't kill you.

[TheFeniX]

Cortana is hilarious because she got more and more sexualised over the games, to the point in Reach that the plot was basically a Cortana handjob. Mummy says you're special! Release endorphins!

I was going to rant about this, but my post was getting long. I liked that Halo 1 (and 2 to a certain extent) Cortana was this wise-cracking, sometimes dickish, AI that just happened to have a female avatar. Her descent into idiocy, even when explained by rampancy, was just another point in how bland and stupid Halo 3 really was. I can get that she has feelings for John, but does the clumination of her character in Halo 4 have to be sexual tension? Even "Later bro, we had some good times" ::fist bump:: would have felt a lot more....real, I guess.

Not true, which is particularly good because you can obviously only "give her the dick" if you choose to be a male character. You "fix" her by doing her loyalty mission, allowing her to confront her past. She's one of the three main romance options for a male Shepherd, only one of which you can choose, and whether or not you choose to romance her has a fairly minimal impact on her mental state and personality. In addition to romancing her, you also have the option to fuck her early after recruiting her which does little to nothing to affect her character.

I was told that, even after her loyalty mission, she starts regressing emotionally unless you romance her.

Also not true. Two asari will attack each other and you choose which one to assist and recruit, the other of which will die. One of them is an ardat-yakshi, meaning that her bonding with another individual will damage their brain and kill them. After you've completed the game you have the option to do some Vulcan mind-boning with her which will end up killing you. The other asari will express romantic interest in you if you are a paragon character, but refuses to act on them. Even if it were an option, she's not an ardat-yakshi so it wouldn't kill you.

Still. Sex vampire. It's just hilarious to even think about. But fair enough about Samara.

[PeZook]

Still. Sex vampire. It's just hilarious to even think about. But fair enough about Samara.

It's even said (repeatedly) that doing tha nasty with whatshername is incredibly sextastic because FEMME FATALE, right? Man-eating vampiresses!

But Asari are all too often defined exclusively by ways they can have sex with other species: The entire concept of the Ardat-Yakshi is "They kill people when they sleep with them and oh BTW they are also horny all the time."

[TheFeniX]

I was going to rant about this, but my post was getting long. I liked that Halo 1 (and 2 to a certain extent) Cortana was this wise-cracking, sometimes dickish, AI that just happened to have a female avatar. Her descent into idiocy, even when explained by rampancy, was just another point in how bland and stupid Halo 3 really was. I can get that she has feelings for John, but does the clumination of her character in Halo 4 have to be sexual tension? Even "Later bro, we had some good times" ::fist bump:: would have felt a lot more....real, I guess.

Sorry for the necro, but I was doing my rounds on the Interwebs during lunch and stumbled upon some hilarity I wanted to rant about. I also didn't think this deserved it's own thread. But my hatred for the devolution of Cortana was eating at me.

I gave up on the Metal Gear series after 2 (also because I never bothered with a PS3), but designs for a new character hit the scene. Her name is Quiet and she's dressed rather stupidly for a soldier (no surprise there). So, David Ellis decided that this was disgusting and that the development scene is full of manbabies. David Ellis is pretty much a nobody so I really don't care much for his opinion nor how stupid MSG5 is going to be (supposedly, they're going the cover shooter route and QTE stealth saves or some such stuff). But looking into who David Ellis is, he works for 343 doing grunt work for Halo Waypoint and some podcast.

I know it's a huge ad hominem, But it's just hilarious that a guy from 343 is bitching about sexism when Halo 4 gave us this bullshit:

It's like EA calling out Epic for lacking innovation. Even then, I could have dealt with Cortana having a navel and hips that could start a Sir Mix a Lot song. I could not handle how fucking terrible the character was in Halo 3 and 4.

[Steve]

I was told that, even after her loyalty mission, she starts regressing emotionally unless you romance her.

Uh.... who told you that? Because I saw no evidence of it (since the topic is her depiction in ME2 I'm not sure bringing up her development in ME3 is relevant, though it certainly goes against this as well). Taking Jack back to Pragia gives her catharsiis. It doesn't heal her of course, but it gave her some emotional release.

[TheFeniX]

But you can heal her, through the magic of PG-13 sex.

An online friend and I were drunk ranting about huge double-standards in gaming. Jack came up in ME2 and he explained her general character progression. When he brought up the "needs a good dicking to get her shit together" line, I stumbled around the Internet the next day and found an article also talking about it:

Only Shepard's "magic penis" can cure the "badass biotic bitch." Players who play a female Shepard or choose to romance another character will find that after a certain point Jack shuts down, and her character's progression stops. After helping the character complete her loyalty mission, the only way to help Jack reach some sort of closure like every other character does is to sleep with her. Miranda suffered from more gratuitous camera angles, but at least she received some sense of closure even if without becoming romantically involved with Shepard. The only avenue of character progression open to Jack is to bed the player character. She's doomed to a life of self-hatred and anger unless she sleeps with one man -- who happens to be the savior of the galaxy. That's not a character arc, it's a male power fantasy, and it's excruciatingly poor writing. If BioWare had simply provided Jack with a second path to complete her story, the character would have benefited greatly. One could argue that Thane has a similar relationship with female Shepard, but an un-romanced Thane progresses as a character at least somewhat. Jack actually regresses, focusing and renewing her hostility to the rest of the world.

I then dug around the wiki

En route to the final mission, she comes to Shepard in his cabin, tells him she has been thinking a lot about him, and that he's right and she needs someone. Jack gives in, and shows a very vulnerable and emotional side. Tears roll down her face as a tender scene ensues, culminating with her smiling peacefully while they lie together on his bed, and she finally achieves true happiness.

Basically, the loyalty mission doesn't do anything to purge her personal demons, but Shepard can by talking and getting to know her. However, the "getting to know her" can only end in sex, otherwise she just cusses you out from then on.

[Steve]

I never play male Shep (I find Mark Meer's performance to be decent but too... mechanical) so I never saw the romance of Jack.

OTOH, ME3 does show an unromanced Jack who does find something more. She's still Jack, she's still tormented, but she's not just a "badass biotic bitch" but has a real sense of purpose and making something more of herself. Citadel DLC finished her unromanced arc rather well IMHO.

I think if there's any fault here, it's not how Jack's written per se, it's how they have Jack portrayed if she falls in love with MaleShep. I can see that as a problem.

[TheFeniX]

I think if there's any fault here, it's not how Jack's written per se, it's how they have Jack portrayed if she falls in love with MaleShep. I can see that as a problem.

Exactly. A couple of one-on-one chats in between missions isn't going to even crack at the basket-case that is Jack (rightfully, considering the shit she's been through), so there's no real issues that she can't be "fixed." If they had left it there, I doubt anyone would have cared.

But "a good dicking = A+ mental health" is worth a solid laugh.

[Spekio]

Joss Whedon tweeted about this.

I am at a loss of words here.

First, the vilification of sex workers. Boy, did that piss me off.

Second: Lack of sources, lack of actual research, cherry picking if not fabricating what she says on the video.

[Terralthra]

How about you use some more descriptive words or links, when you're critiquing something?

[Thanas]

More like, why are people responding to a topic that is a year old?