STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 05:09pm

frigidmagi wrote:Did me and Hotfoot post at the same time? Because his idea sounds alot like Nitram's, which he graciously allowed me to post.

Same idea, different method of transmission.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 06:28pm

Could the belligerent nations please come up with something the Etern have not already replied to? Repeating 'We are saving lives; we value this more than some unsubstantiated concept or idealism' gets tiresome after a while.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 06:40pm

Sorry, I'm not there. And I've already posted your comproise. I think it's very workable and keeps Etern from becoming massivly powerful anytime soon.

I think it needs more detailing but that's what nation to nation talks are for.

Folks by the way that transmission was open and loud enough for everyone to hear it if you want to comment on it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 07:52pm

SirNitram wrote:Could the belligerent nations please come up with something the Etern have not already replied to? Repeating 'We are saving lives; we value this more than some unsubstantiated concept or idealism' gets tiresome after a while.

And it's also not good enough. Those people would be suffering from a massive OCP and you know it.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 07:54pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Could the belligerent nations please come up with something the Etern have not already replied to? Repeating 'We are saving lives; we value this more than some unsubstantiated concept or idealism' gets tiresome after a while.
And it's also not good enough. Those people would be suffering from a massive OCP and you know it.

'oh no an ocp!' And this is worse than millions dying in their own history how, Rogue? That's the one thing you and the rest don't show. You toss around unsubstantiated claims because nothing like this has happened for real.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-01 07:55pm

I am going to ask you right now, have the Etern ever done a massive biological study of these people?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 07:56pm

SirNitram wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Could the belligerent nations please come up with something the Etern have not already replied to? Repeating 'We are saving lives; we value this more than some unsubstantiated concept or idealism' gets tiresome after a while.
And it's also not good enough. Those people would be suffering from a massive OCP and you know it.
'oh no an ocp!' And this is worse than millions dying in their own history how, Rogue? That's the one thing you and the rest don't show. You toss around unsubstantiated claims because nothing like this has happened for real.

*Waits for the first massive plague to rip through one of those worlds as a result of contact with you.* Yeah. It will happen. I'm sorry, but you're dealing with entirely alien life forms with entirely different immune systems. You can't stop it. Not without having every one of your people onworld wear a biocontainment suit at all times.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-01 07:58pm

SirNitram wrote:'oh no an ocp!' And this is worse than millions dying in their own history how, Rogue? That's the one thing you and the rest don't show. You toss around unsubstantiated claims because nothing like this has happened for real.

Well, no aliens have actually set up a protectorate here on Earth.

But he's right about one thing. This a massive OCP and you damn well know it. You're going to warp their entire development permanently, like it or not. There is a no question that this kind of thing would make the European Age of Colonialism look like nothing as far as upheaval for this people.

And that's with out you setting your self up as minor deities, which given everything I'm sure you'll exploit. I don't think any of us are going to believe you there. Just like you won't exploit your automation to pull a stunt very much like this.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 08:00pm

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:'oh no an ocp!' And this is worse than millions dying in their own history how, Rogue? That's the one thing you and the rest don't show. You toss around unsubstantiated claims because nothing like this has happened for real.
Well, no aliens have actually set up a protectorate here on Earth.

Yep. So no evidence can be brought against me. What a pity..

But he's right about one thing. This a massive OCP and you damn well know it. You're going to warp their entire development permanently, like it or not. There is a no question that this kind of thing would make the European Age of Colonialism look like nothing as far as upheaval for this people.

Yes. It is going to be outside of their context. It will also save the lives they would lose to famine, disease, and internal war. It will not brief, easy, or simple.

And that's with out you setting your self up as minor deities, which given everything I'm sure you'll exploit. I don't think any of us are going to believe you there. Just like you won't exploit your automation to pull a stunt very much like this.

Of course I'm going to exploit what I can get. But I'm also open to a compromise that doesn't look stupid and self-contradictory from the belligerent opposition.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 08:04pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I am going to ask you right now, have the Etern ever done a massive biological study of these people?

I love how when the Atlanteans were detained for quaratine after having shown up at a ball entirely unannounced, you raised a massive stink about it, and now, when various NPNs have been evaluated and studied by the Etern for annexation, you claim a plague will, without a doubt, wipe out the entire planet, due to alien immune systems.

Chances are extremely likely that any plague that affects the primitives would also be affected by standard treatments, and if not, it would become relatively easy to quarantine affected areas and people, given the low population densities and level of technology possessed.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-01 08:06pm

Yep. So no evidence can be brought against me. What a pity..

Yeah, but it also means we aren't bound by previous precedent either.

Yes. It is going to be outside of their context. It will also save the lives they would lose to famine, disease, and internal war. It will not brief, easy, or simple.

No one said it didn't have benefits. It's just for some one that's trying to pain this as humanitarian you're causing a hell of a lot of harm.

Of course I'm going to exploit what I can.

No one doubted that. Hence the fact that your support is awfully slim.

But I'm also open to a compromise that doesn't look stupid and self-contradictory from the belligerent opposition.

Well, pissing everyone off isn't the best step towards that.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-01 08:06pm

Karsus was also capable of casting "cure disease" practically at will.

It may be possibleto quarantine villages, but bacteria develop immunity to antibiotics etc etc. And airborne illnesses are easier to contract.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 08:10pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Yep. So no evidence can be brought against me. What a pity..
Yeah, but it also means we aren't bound by previous precedent either.

Touche'... Touche' indeed.

Yes. It is going to be outside of their context. It will also save the lives they would lose to famine, disease, and internal war. It will not brief, easy, or simple.
No one said it didn't have benefits. It's just for some one that's trying to pain this as humanitarian you're causing a hell of a lot of harm.

In-Character thing. All the nations of the Etern have a common fact of having a massive OCP by a violent and enslaving culture. It is outside their context for someone to develop all the way to spaceflight on their own.

Of course I'm going to exploit what I can.
No one doubted that. Hence the fact that your support is awfully slim.

As I've said before. I'm surprised I've gotten any.

But I'm also open to a compromise that doesn't look stupid and self-contradictory from the belligerent opposition.
Well, pissing everyone off isn't the best step towards that.

'Everyone'? I've annoyed the Asgard, the Nashtar, and the Lizards. I've taken a compromise from the UP and.. Damn, whose Hotfoot? Don't be over-dramatic.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 08:10pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Karsus was also capable of casting "cure disease" practically at will.

Then other nations in this STGOD, being at least as advanced as the Netherese, are capable of similar end result.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 08:11pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Karsus was also capable of casting "cure disease" practically at will.

Which, quite frankly, was bullshit, and you know it. Don't bring up the Arcanists again please.

It may be possibleto quarantine villages, but bacteria develop immunity to antibiotics etc etc. And airborne illnesses are easier to contract.

God damn, this is a nightmare scenario, all based on the easily preventable plagues that existed in a simply human-to-human scenario. Even today, with antibiotics everywhere, we do not yet have a super-plague (though it is possible), the chances of one developing on a sparsely populated world are astronomical. It would have a much better chance of developing on one of our homeworlds long before such a disease would develop there.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-01 08:15pm

Rogue 9 wrote:*Waits for the first massive plague to rip through one of those worlds as a result of contact with you.* Yeah. It will happen. I'm sorry, but you're dealing with entirely alien life forms with entirely different immune systems. You can't stop it. Not without having every one of your people onworld wear a biocontainment suit at all times.

No, it really won't. Say a microbe gets on the planet. If the alien biology is different enough that Nitram won't be able to help out and immediately contain it, then odds are the microbe won't be able to affect these primitives in the first place. Microbes carry out HIGHLY SPECIFIC biological functions. The alien plague theory is bogus. You should have learned that in biology class.

And I am inclined to agree with Nitram here on making people's lives better. I got involved in a debate on the N&P thread about Iran. I got yelled down because the consensus was that invading Iran would be good for the Iranians because it leads to a system that generates "the most happiness for the most people." Ideologically, the consensus of the thread was that this was a good thing. Nitram is bringing a system that will generate the most happiness, but you guys are fighting back against it because of other intellectual abstracts. So I think Nitram has the moral high ground here. But this is all irrelevant to the discussion.

What is relevant is flooding of the game thread with repetitions of moral outrage. Put up an STGOD in SLAM if you must (

), and let it be. Objections noted. Do something about it if you object strong enough. You aren't going to convince him to go home any time soon.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 08:17pm

Hotfoot wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Karsus was also capable of casting "cure disease" practically at will.
Which, quite frankly, was bullshit, and you know it.

Quite so. Karsus wasn't a cleric or paladin.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-01 08:18pm

Think about it. We have no way of defending against say.. ebola.

Now imagine a virus that is completely harmless to us, no chance of death. Tiny semi-lifeform that manages to get a foothold in the hydroponics garden. However, we have no way of knowing how this little airborn strain would effect the natives. Not only that, but we have no way to keep it from randomly mutating to do so. native strains theymay have som protection from. But as demonstrated with the American indians.. it could potentially be a nightmare.

At least have some kind of quarantine/decontamination shower that you put people and products through.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 08:19pm

Would the hospitals I have been placing on each world be that, Alyrium? Do you think a modern(By STGOD standards) hospital might have those?

My gods. This hurts to read sometimes. At least coordinate your made up reasons. Or just come out and say you fear our borders and wish to hold us back. That'll at least get you points for honesty.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-01 08:20pm

Bugsby wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:*Waits for the first massive plague to rip through one of those worlds as a result of contact with you.* Yeah. It will happen. I'm sorry, but you're dealing with entirely alien life forms with entirely different immune systems. You can't stop it. Not without having every one of your people onworld wear a biocontainment suit at all times.
No, it really won't. Say a microbe gets on the planet. If the alien biology is different enough that Nitram won't be able to help out and immediately contain it, then odds are the microbe won't be able to affect these primitives in the first place. Microbes carry out HIGHLY SPECIFIC biological functions. The alien plague theory is bogus. You should have learned that in biology class.

And I am inclined to agree with Nitram here on making people's lives better. I got involved in a debate on the N&P thread about Iran. I got yelled down because the consensus was that invading Iran would be good for the Iranians because it leads to a system that generates "the most happiness for the most people." Ideologically, the consensus of the thread was that this was a good thing. Nitram is bringing a system that will generate the most happiness, but you guys are fighting back against it because of other intellectual abstracts. So I think Nitram has the moral high ground here. But this is all irrelevant to the discussion.

What is relevant is flooding of the game thread with repetitions of moral outrage. Put up an STGOD in SLAM if you must ( ), and let it be. Objections noted. Do something about it if you object strong enough. You aren't going to convince him to go home any time soon.

A microbe on the other hand evolves at a much more rapid rate than medical treatments do. They attach to proteins, and all it would take is a genetic mutation or two on the microbes part to be able to attack an alien cell. And it may or may not be harmed by the aliens immune system. It potentially could be very very bad.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 08:21pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Think about it. We have no way of defending against say.. ebola.

Now imagine a virus that is completely harmless to us, no chance of death. Tiny semi-lifeform that manages to get a foothold in the hydroponics garden. However, we have no way of knowing how this little airborn strain would effect the natives. Not only that, but we have no way to keep it from randomly mutating to do so. native strains theymay have som protection from. But as demonstrated with the American indians.. it could potentially be a nightmare.

At least have some kind of quarantine/decontamination shower that you put people and products through.

Once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. The plagues that decimated the Native Americans were plagues that also at one point decimated Europe. Same species. I'll say it again, in case it's not clear. SAME. SPECIES.

You cannot make a clear analogy to something like this from the colonization of the Americas. It doesn't translate.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-01 08:25pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:A microbe on the other hand evolves at a much more rapid rate than medical treatments do. They attach to proteins, and all it would take is a genetic mutation or two on the microbes part to be able to attack an alien cell. And it may or may not be harmed by the aliens immune system. It potentially could be very very bad.

Medtech has progressed to this point where we know about prettymuch every microbe and how it functions. One mutation won't do it, because we can track that mutation and control it. That's not to say that there won't be problems. But these problems can be contained. The damage done by this would be much less than the good caused by advancing these civilizations.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-01 08:25pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:A microbe on the other hand evolves at a much more rapid rate than medical treatments do. They attach to proteins, and all it would take is a genetic mutation or two on the microbes part to be able to attack an alien cell. And it may or may not be harmed by the aliens immune system. It potentially could be very very bad.

You people keep forgetting where we are in medical technology. Given the Etern's cyborging expertise, they probably have protein-based nanobots and synthetic antiviruses that kill can target and kill microbes at a near 100% success rate. Assuming your mad scenario comes to pass, the Etern could quickly quarantine and eliminate an outbreak before it could move along the primitive transportation systems, and then synthesize a tailor-made antibiotic.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 08:30pm

Look can we stop bellyaching and get down to business? The Etern are there and are not moving. The comproise that Nitram came up with defangs him by only allowing him a fraction of each world and forcing him to allow the worlds to stay indepenent.

Frankly the UP will be happy knowing that there aren't massive factories pumping out ship and 24 planet populations being turned into cannon fodder troops.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-01 08:30pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:A microbe on the other hand evolves at a much more rapid rate than medical treatments do. They attach to proteins, and all it would take is a genetic mutation or two on the microbes part to be able to attack an alien cell. And it may or may not be harmed by the aliens immune system. It potentially could be very very bad.
You people keep forgetting where we are in medical technology. Given the Etern's cyborging expertise, they probably have protein-based nanobots and synthetic antiviruses that kill can target and kill microbes at a near 100% success rate. Assuming your mad scenario comes to pass, the Etern could quickly quarantine and eliminate an outbreak before it could move along the primitive transportation systems, and then synthesize a tailor-made antibiotic.

Hell, I've got that sort of technology myself. As I recall I was exporting that. A thing called prolong....