STGOD2 OOC Thread

[Thirdfain]

Beowulf, cut the bullshit. The Commonwealth vessels are
A: many thousands of kilometers away
B: FAR more heavily armored and shielded than their Cornerian counterparts, which merely lose sensor booms when shield failure hits their unshielded, lightly armored hull at short range

I STRONGLY doubt a "shield Explosion" which merely shorts out a light, unshielded warship's sensors at very short range would have a great effect on a Commonwealth DN.

[SirNitram]

Beowulf: Basic physics lesson. Energy expanding in a sphere is pitiful compared to a concentrated energy weapon assault. Your shields are not going to stab from beyond the grave and kill everyone.

[Beowulf]

Beowulf: Basic physics lesson. Energy expanding in a sphere is pitiful compared to a concentrated energy weapon assault. Your shields are not going to stab from beyond the grave and kill everyone.

Ahem... it's all the energy in the shields, which is a fairly significant amount when your talking about near planetary level shield levels. Also note that his ships were stated to be within a fairly narrow amount of space, which was IIRC point blank range, between my planets and the installations he was attempting to blow up. He also failed to take into account that I wouldn't be using just missiles, but rather energy weapons as well... Bottom line is, he was way to close to the shields when they went, and it back-fired on him...

[Beowulf]

Beowulf, cut the bullshit. The Commonwealth vessels are
A: many thousands of kilometers away
B: FAR more heavily armored and shielded than their Cornerian counterparts, which merely lose sensor booms when shield failure hits their unshielded, lightly armored hull at short range

I STRONGLY doubt a "shield Explosion" which merely shorts out a light, unshielded warship's sensors at very short range would have a great effect on a Commonwealth DN.

If they are many thousands of kilometers away, then you can't have put yourself between the installations and the planet. "point-blank range between the shipyards and the planets they orbited"
Also note: they lose their sensor arrays when a very small fraction of the energy from the shields goes inward. The vast majority of the energy goes outward. Which is what I've been saying since the beginning. Do note also that I've got energy weapons pounding away at your ships.

[SirNitram]

Beowulf: Basic physics lesson. Energy expanding in a sphere is pitiful compared to a concentrated energy weapon assault. Your shields are not going to stab from beyond the grave and kill everyone.

Ahem... it's all the energy in the shields, which is a fairly significant amount when your talking about near planetary level shield levels. Also note that his ships were stated to be within a fairly narrow amount of space, which was IIRC point blank range, between my planets and the installations he was attempting to blow up. He also failed to take into account that I wouldn't be using just missiles, but rather energy weapons as well... Bottom line is, he was way to close to the shields when they went, and it back-fired on him...

Perhaps I should word it more strongly.

Denied.

You seem to have little grasp of the scale of space, the size of a sphere expanding like this, and the physics that come into play. The energy release will not leave his fleets helpless for your surface guns. You did not declare your shields as weapons, they will not be such lethally effective ones.

[Thirdfain]

If they are many thousands of kilometers away, then you can't have put yourself between the installations and the planet. "point-blank range between the shipyards and the planets they orbited"

I assumed your shipyards weren't in low orbit, as placing such a large object too close to a planet could be potentially VERY dangerous.

[Beowulf]

Perhaps I should word it more strongly.

Denied.

You seem to have little grasp of the scale of space, the size of a sphere expanding like this, and the physics that come into play. The energy release will not leave his fleets helpless for your surface guns. You did not declare your shields as weapons, they will not be such lethally effective ones.

The shields have been like this since the very beginning of this incarnation of the STGOD. Considering that his ships have also been under fire by the surface guns, and that he stated that his swarmer pods are single use, and therefore could not have stopped all the missiles incoming, which would increase the base energy level of his shields as well. Also consider, he specifically stated he was attacking installations in orbit around my worlds, and that he was interposed between the installation and the planet, which severly limits the locations in which he could have had his ships, and that he was at point blank range. Let us assume that the installation's shields are 20km in radius, and that he was 100km away. His biggest ships are around 5km long, and let's assume 500m wide. This results in his ships absorbing around 4 orders of magnitude less energy impinging on his shields than were in the installation's shields. However, these installations have fairly strong shields, much greater than the those of his dreadnaughts, which are already being weakened by the constant ground fire. And remember, he did specify point blank range, and if the shields can't hold up long enough to withstand a decent assault by a decent sized enemy force long enough for the planetary defenses to take care of the enemy or for an allied fleet to show up, they aren't much use.

[Beowulf]

If they are many thousands of kilometers away, then you can't have put yourself between the installations and the planet. "point-blank range between the shipyards and the planets they orbited"

I assumed your shipyards weren't in low orbit, as placing such a large object too close to a planet could be potentially VERY dangerous.

Geosynch is 22,000 km. That would the upper limit of where the shipyards would be. And do remember that the planet has multiple shield layers as well, so it's not so dangerous. It'd be just a small problem until they could get the shipyards reboosted into an appropiate orbit. And perhaps we have a different conception of what constitutes point blank range, but I envision that to be 100km or less...

[SirNitram]

Let's try this again, since you don't get it.

Denied. Your shields cannot act as weapons so powerful you can destroy attacking fleets without the slightest fleet assets in the area.

Not getting that? We'll try another way.

No.

[Beowulf]

Let's try this again, since you don't get it.

Denied. Your shields cannot act as weapons so powerful you can destroy attacking fleets without the slightest fleet assets in the area.

Not getting that? We'll try another way.

No.

He completely ignores the fact that I have defenses other than missile swarms, utilizes one shot missile defenses multiple times, and takes down heavily shielded installations in less than 10 minutes, without utilizing superweapons. Don't forget, he also split his fleet into quarters in order to attack the four different locations, as he stated. It's going to take him a while to take down the shields of each installation, and the entire time, he's getting pounded by my static defenses. Consider the shield failure not as a being able to take down a set of shields by themselves, but rather as the straw that broke the camel's back.

[SirNitram]

Actually, you didn't declare any specific static defenses. The closest are Harringtons, which are explicitly stated to be over new territory.

You're rather full of it to claim he's ignoring parts when you didn't declare any parts at all. We assume defenses are there, but if you don't declare them, you don't get to say 'Oh, there was more, really..' when someone comes and rams their foot up your ass. I tire of this. Last time I'm repeating it.

DENIED.

[Beowulf]

Only about a 1/3 of the powers do have declared specific static defenses. Given the fact that although I am rather missile heavy, I do have energy mounts on my ships, it shouldn't be too hard to infer that I'd have something more than just missile swarms.

If you take the position that a heavily shielded installation can be taken out by 10% of someone's fleet in a matter of minutes, without the use of superweapons, then you've managed to radically alter the shape of this STGOD. If you take the position that a shipyard would not be heavily shielded, you're an idiot. Considering the fact that some people have battleship level shields over their cities, it should take a very long time for him to take down the shields of a shipyard.

Him sending small portions of his fleet to attack seperate places is not ramming his foot up my ass, it's him lightly tapping me.

[SirNitram]

It's a relatively simple thing. You can't slaughter a fleet without declared forces. I would think every STGODer would understand it.

Another thing that I thought was understood is the Moderator's word is law. As Phong pointed out to me, there once was a time when Moderators were just for continuity. But some people pull stupid shit, and now we must make rulings. I've made mine.

You refuse to conform to it? Okay, here comes the stick I reserved for when the carrot is refused.

[Beowulf]

It's a relatively simple thing. You can't slaughter a fleet without declared forces. I would think every STGODer would understand it.

Another thing that I thought was understood is the Moderator's word is law. As Phong pointed out to me, there once was a time when Moderators were just for continuity. But some people pull stupid shit, and now we must make rulings. I've made mine.

You refuse to conform to it? Okay, here comes the stick I reserved for when the carrot is refused.

That which is not declared can be assumed to not exist? Dangerous proposition to take. Certain things should be taken for granted. A somewhat effective planetary defense should be one of them.

A moderator's word may be law, but one of the guiding principles of being a moderator is to try to keep as many people as possible happy. Letting a player get off with assaulting what should be a heavily defended installation with a relatively small force with nary a scratch is not going to make everyone happy. You ever hear of the word "compromise"? My post was a reaction to what I saw as Thirdfain making attacks with too small of forces without taking any losses.

If you had even made the suggestion that he would be able to destroy the facilities, but took some losses in the process, I would have been perfectly happy.

So far you've been showing the stick, but not the carrot.

[SirNitram]

It's not the most complex ruling, Beowulf. You can't total fleets without forces that got declared. I can't find much wrong with this ruling from a logical standpoint. The only person I see upset here is you.

Again. This comes down to you trying to obliterate a fleet without anything that you actually declared. Sorry, no. Not happening. If you think this sets a dangerous precedent.. I don't mind. I prefer it to the precedent of ruling the other way, which is that undeclared forces can destroy declared ones, otherwise known as Trascend's Endless Horde.

[Beowulf]

It's not the most complex ruling, Beowulf. You can't total fleets without forces that got declared. I can't find much wrong with this ruling from a logical standpoint. The only person I see upset here is you.

Again. This comes down to you trying to obliterate a fleet without anything that you actually declared. Sorry, no. Not happening. If you think this sets a dangerous precedent.. I don't mind. I prefer it to the precedent of ruling the other way, which is that undeclared forces can destroy declared ones, otherwise known as Trascend's Endless Horde.

On the other hand, you've consistantly threatened the stick, have failed at even attempting to compromise at any point, and don't seem to care that there are such things that should be assumed, and have in fact ruled previously the other way, with hypershields being assumed to exist for all nations unless otherwise specified.

[SirNitram]

It's not the most complex ruling, Beowulf. You can't total fleets without forces that got declared. I can't find much wrong with this ruling from a logical standpoint. The only person I see upset here is you.

Again. This comes down to you trying to obliterate a fleet without anything that you actually declared. Sorry, no. Not happening. If you think this sets a dangerous precedent.. I don't mind. I prefer it to the precedent of ruling the other way, which is that undeclared forces can destroy declared ones, otherwise known as Trascend's Endless Horde.

On the other hand, you've consistantly threatened the stick, have failed at even attempting to compromise at any point, and don't seem to care that there are such things that should be assumed, and have in fact ruled previously the other way, with hypershields being assumed to exist for all nations unless otherwise specified.

Oddly enough, hypershields can't destroy fleets. Next claim that isn't at all what you want it to be?

I'm harsh. I don't claim otherwise. I feel this game should be fair, and part of being fair is you can't say you have something that can win the match for you when it should have been previously declared.

I will, of course, point out that at no point were you offering compromise either. I am, as I said, harsh. I don't claim any different, it's one of my faults.

[Beowulf]

Oddly enough, hypershields can't destroy fleets. Next claim that isn't at all what you want it to be?

I'm harsh. I don't claim otherwise. I feel this game should be fair, and part of being fair is you can't say you have something that can win the match for you when it should have been previously declared.

I will, of course, point out that at no point were you offering compromise either. I am, as I said, harsh. I don't claim any different, it's one of my faults.

On the other hand, hypershields can save a fleet.

So you're saying that if I can manage to send a frigate to a world where the power that control's it doesn't have declared planetary defense scheme, I can massacre the inhabitants?

While I did have most of my fleet drawn off for the various attacks, I do also have some still there, and the targets he attacked are precisely the ones that they would be defending. Since not many people have posted the exact locations of every single ship in their fleet, does that mean when I attack, I can assume there aren't any defenders?

The answers to these should be no, and yet that is what Thirdfain is doing.

[SirNitram]

Then you should have declared the 2nd fleet, which by your own words is the only force not previously busy, to do something about the attackers. Instead, you wanted to asspull victory from nondeclared forces. Sorry, does not fly.

[Beowulf]

Here's an idea! Thirdfain takes back his posts about effortlessly slaughtering my major installations, I take back mine about not so effortlessly slaughtering the ships sent to slaughter my major installations, and we go back to try again.

[Stormbringer]

I've got to say I agree with rewinding things to that point for the both of them. If such a small group of ships can effectively strip any planet of it's defenses that totally unbalances things. It will ruin the game since no one can affor to stick their neck out.

[Kyle]

Just for the record. I'm against a rewind. He fucked up and gathered too much of his fleet in one spot, and paid the price for it. Live and learn.

[Stormbringer]

Just for the record. I'm against a rewind. He fucked up and gathered too much of his fleet in one spot, and paid the price for it. Live and learn.

It's not so much that as the dueling escalations of power gaming. Thirdfain took a tiny fraction of his fleet to blow through the defense and beowulf retaliated by whacking him back.

It more a matter of both sides taking their fair share of lumps for it than anything.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Same with me. The Commonwealth won't play that game.

To it's detriment. The current strategy is one for shield-cracking Darksaber style weapons, which would not be overwhelmingly expensive (though more expensive than any normal warship) and are still useful. A superlaser platform is, strategically speaking, very useful. They eliminate the siege process of taking down planetary defenses, cutting down on your loss rate and allowing you to move in and on much more quickly. Naturally, nobody wants to actually use such weapons, which is why the Kzin are going to deploy them in relatively small numbers. Any attack with these weapons on the Patriarchy will invite retaliation in kind.

(It should be noted, btw, that Kzin psychology does not like inflicting massive property damage. They like to capture things.)

[SirNitram]

I should really have pointed out that the Corsair's have no problem with seigecrackers. It's the SLAM-like levels of firepower that will be disdained.. Why blow up when you can loot?