STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-06 08:25pm

Hudson.

*shrug* Hudson was a rim world, far from interstellar politics. No one cared about it. New Tortuga, on the other hand, is a core system, and with the money at it's disposal (Hell, Jormungandr didn't have a fleet that big, and she controlled a half-dozen systems,) I think it will turn out to have quite a few defenders, local and otherwise.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-08-06 08:34pm

Okay I'm looking at the map here and could be wrong but the Dracs are not core by any strech of the imagation. Are they engaged in a far campaign?

Also my questions about International Law in the STGOD was quite serious and honest. I'll take any answer I can get.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-08-06 08:53pm

Hudson.

If you wanted to raise an objection, you should have made some noise when it still could have mattered. Now it's too late.

Speaking as someone who has some experience with these STGODs, I would say that Thirdfain is probably one of the better players (especially in this particular STGOD iteration) with knowing when and how to make power plays.

So Hudson get's it's 'sovereign territorial rights' honored when? Or the other systems? There has never been any 'honoring of sovereign territorial rights' in this game unless someone had a hammer big enough to make it to expensive not to.

Precisely.

Such a maneuver would belong in the Game thread.

Things said in the OOC thread still affect in-game decisions, like it or not.

He can question all he wants and I can slam him with the history hammer all I want. His question is baseless. And frankly we have estblished without doubt that they are pirates, purebreed ship taking pirates.

Then Alyrium should have sent an ultimatum. If they ignored it, then he can declare war and attack them without any impropriety.

As we have no international court or organization to pursue a peaceful course,

Nations have pursued peaceful courses mano a mano since almost before they were even nations. You don't need a UN to make a deal for you, you don't need an international court to write your treaties.

this leaves war to remove a menace from the void. Aly decided to do the service and shouldn't be jumped for that by the guy who ignored the very rules he's chosing to 'defend.'

Actually, Thirdfain can jump him in the name of justice and be technically correct. This is the same process that allowed the CIA to support Fascist juntas and torture freedom fighters in the name of democracy; the same process that allowed Stalin to invade and suppress a the people's rising in Budapest in the name of the people. Say one thing, do another.

Frankly, what are these international rules? I've heard them tossed around but never listed. There is no UN here, there is no Geneva Convention, nothing. So list these rules already instead vaugly refering to them and list where the powers of the STGOD agreed that they were in effect for Known Space.

By your assessment there were no rules of international etiquette between the dawn of the State and the establishment of the League of Nations. For the vast majority of history, the "rules" have been unwritten and fairly simple. The territory of a nation is sovereign and not to be violated. Invasion of a nation is to be preceeded by a declaration of war. We have referred to them vaguely because they are vague and they're different in every situation. They don't even exist in the absence of a party willing and able to enforce them!

The partition of Poland is a good example. All the nations in a position to make noise in favor of Polish integrity were in on the deal. So Austria, Prussia, and Russia made their own international law, just for that particular situation. In this STGOD some people have invaded and siezed territories without casus belli. We even carved up the entire Arcane Empire on pretext that I admit were extremely flimsy, if they even existed at all. People lodged protests and threatened action. But they weren't prepared to do anything and we knew it, so we acted like they hadn't said anything.

I said it then and I'll say it now: If you feel strongly about something, put your money where your mouth is. Thirdfain has the strength and maybe the balls to jump Alyrium and paste him by taking up New Tortuga's defense. All you need to do to prevent that is to be there and ready to back Alyrium up. A lot of pious talk won't do anything, standing behind the Draconis with your fleet and a real intention to hurt the Ousters if they make a move will do a lot.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-08-06 09:06pm

Oh believe me, the UP will not stand by for this. Niether will the rest the rest of the Alliance.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-06 11:06pm

Let me put it this way. If Thirdfain intends to try and carve up the Draconis Republic for ridding the void of pirates, then the Ousters will not exist as a nation for any large amount of time. The Alliance can and will take him apart if he tries to use this as a pretext to wage a war of conquest against one of our member nations. (Note: If I'd thought Fifth Fleet could have successfully stopped the dismemberment of the Arcane Empire, I would have tried to do it without hesitation. I was too heavily outnumbered.)

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-08-07 12:30am

If we want to talk persecution, we could talk about sending a fleet to seize Karsus without even attempting extradition procedures or diplomatic means...

The difference being Karsus is an active war criminal who probably has about as much power as a dreadnought (and is hiding in an allied government's teritory) and is wanted by us in connection with a massacre very very fresh on our minds. Persecution? Sure. Deserving? In our eyes, yes. Relevant to this case? Not at all.

Rogue 9 wrote:Straha, can we just say that I bought a batch of that power armor for some reasonable price or other? I really need that captain back.

Sure thing.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-07 12:55am

Karsus was wanted on suspicion of war crimes. The pirates were wanted for wanton piracy, and on much harder evidence than what you had against Karsus.

Sure thing.

Excellent.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-08-07 01:08am

Pablo wrote:If you wanted to raise an objection, you should have made some noise when it still could have mattered. Now it's too late.

Just a little nitpick Pab, but I wasn't even a member of the board, let alone a player in the game at the time of Hudson fall. Bit hard for me to do anything then huh?

You also seem to forget that the UP didn't make contact with the galaxy at large until a month or so into the STGOD (game time).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-07 01:09am

Rogue 9 wrote:Karsus was wanted on suspicion of war crimes. The pirates were wanted for wanton piracy, and on much harder evidence than what you had against Karsus.

As I think I've been made Moderator again.. Or still am.. Or something... Or just because I'm curious...

What is the evidence against these 'pirates'?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-08-07 01:12am

Ask Aly.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-08-07 02:27pm

Bullshit Nitram. The UP doesn't need to doctor shit in this.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-07 02:28pm

frigidmagi wrote:Bullshit Nitram. The UP doesn't need to doctor shit in this.

Given how flimsy the logic for them being pirates is when one actually steps OOC and thinks about it, maybe you do. Or maybe the Etern are just screwing you the fuck over. It sucks to be a democracy when your opponent's are underhanded and evil, eh?

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-08-07 05:06pm

We need someone to take over the pirate forces. Not just to finish the battle, but I need someone to accept or decline my proposal...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-07 07:35pm

...

*Stares in disbelief.*

Okay, where was all this indignation when Hudson was taken?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-07 07:38pm

SirNitram wrote:Given how flimsy the logic for them being pirates is when one actually steps OOC and thinks about it, maybe you do.

We've been operating under the assumption that they are, in fact, heavily armed pirates since this started. There are in game posts on their part that confirms that they are, in fact, pirates. Its a little late to be changing things around so that they were framed now.

It sucks to be a democracy when your opponent's are underhanded and evil, eh?

It sucks to be an evil dictator when the democracies get pissed off at you, eh?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-07 07:41pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Given how flimsy the logic for them being pirates is when one actually steps OOC and thinks about it, maybe you do.
We've been operating under the assumption that they are, in fact, heavily armed pirates since this started. There are in game posts on their part that confirms that they are, in fact, pirates. Its a little late to be changing things around so that they were framed now.

Then I will stare in disbeleif at the stupid that festered here while I was gone.

It sucks to be a democracy when your opponent's are underhanded and evil, eh?
It sucks to be an evil dictator when the democracies get pissed off at you, eh?

Not really. I've survived it before. What're you gonna do? Confirm the propaganda that you're bloodthirsty and imperialistic?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-07 07:50pm

*Chuckle* No we won't. If you follow through on fighting for Tortuga, we won't have to.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-08-07 10:40pm

Rogue 9 wrote:...

*Stares in disbelief.*

Okay, where was all this indignation when Hudson was taken?

There were three groups of people.
The first group was the people that cared. I guess you might have been in there. They didn't have the minerals to do anything.
The second group was the people that didn't care. I was in that group.
The third group... well, that was the Ousters.

Rogue 9 wrote:*Chuckle* No we won't. If you follow through on fighting for Tortuga, we won't have to.

Sounds like some more tough talk, I hope you're prepared to back it up this time.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-07 11:38pm

Sounds like some more tough talk, I hope you're prepared to back it up this time.

Last time it was me against the world. That is not the case this time around.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-08 12:43am

You know, this whole Tortuga thing seems incredibly silly. Not so long ago a bunch of you were arguing against NPC nations being allowed. At some point people clued into the notion that opposing those take overs made a hell of a lot more sense. Now why, oh why are people suprised and upset when people do just that?

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-08-08 01:24am

A pirate world with enough ship to significantly menace my shipping I think could easily be a large colony world. And remember, they can afford to buy such ships if they A: Capture them or B: Use slave labor to reduce costs.

Granted, the fleet was probably a bit big, but I actually wanted to make it difficult for myself so I didnt get accused of "getting a planet for free"

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-08-08 01:57am

I put this in the OOC thread because I dont have a real diplomatic corps and thus cannot really put this in the game thread...

Aly, there are three ways to treat this invasion.

1) You are pursuing individuals, not governments. You do not hold the planetary government of Tortuga at all responsible, merely the captains and crews of the pirate ships you spotted operating out of New Tortuga.

2) You are attacking the government of a planet that is responsible for harboring pirates (and may very well be run by pirates). In the interests of securing trade routes and "freeing the populace" (whatever that might mean), you are scouring the planet.

3) Tortuga is a low-down dirt-ball run by pirate scum. As such, you do not recognize any "government" they may have set up amongst themselves. Pirate code is not planetary law. Seeing as the leaders of the planet are all scoundrels and thieves, you see no problem with removing this government from power.

At the moment, you seem to be taking aspects of all three approaches, and it is getting kind of confusing. Kindly specify which of these best describes your situation so everyone else knows how to react to your invasion.

P.S. Will someone take control of the pirates? Please? If nothing else, could a mod determine what effect my offer to the pirates would have? I have my own ideas, of course, but giving myself ships and personnel without the feedback of any of the other players is just wrong.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-08-08 02:02am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:A pirate world with enough ship to significantly menace my shipping I think could easily be a large colony world. And remember, they can afford to buy such ships if they A: Capture them or B: Use slave labor to reduce costs.

Granted, the fleet was probably a bit big, but I actually wanted to make it difficult for myself so I didnt get accused of "getting a planet for free"

Um... using slave labor to construct a sophisticated technological device that your life depends on doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do. You see, if they're skilled enough to construct it, they're probable skilled enough to sabotage it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-08 02:06am

No one ever said they were well maintained dreadnoughts, did they?

If I end up fighting one, I fully intend to treat it as an old jalopy of a battleship, not a top of the line warship up to national standards.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-08-08 02:35am

Rogue 9 wrote:Karsus was wanted on suspicion of war crimes. The pirates were wanted for wanton piracy, and on much harder evidence than what you had against Karsus.

He WAS the head of state of the Arcane Empire, a nation we were at war with and a nation that was aligned with the Siliconoids...

Did we really need any firmer proof?