World of Tanks Mark 2

[Darth Wong]

MP balance issues are always about statistics and confirmation bias. Even when something is hugely OP and a major problem, you might never personally see it (and if it doesn't happen to you it's often difficult to know what it was). That's why complaints about balance are often driven more by community consensus than anything else - everyone says the ASW is cheap so it must be cheap, I saw a guy using it once and he won ergo its overpowered, etc.

I've tried tier-5 mini-derp guns myself, and when firing HEAT, it makes the game so much easier that it almost feels like cheating. It's not just confirmation bias and complaining about other people doing better than I think they should.

It's no mystery why; the penetration and damage figures for low-tier HEAT rounds are public, and subject to rather casual empirical analysis.

M4 Sherman using standard M1A1 gun: 128 penetration, 115 damage
M4 Sherman using derp gun with HEAT: 150 penetration, 350 damage
Gain: 17% penetration, 204% damage

Panzer IV using standard L/48 gun: 110 penetration, 110 damage
Panzer IV using derp gun with HEAT: 150 penetration, 350 damage
Gain: 36% penetration, 218% damage

Now let's look at high-tier tanks:
IS3 using BL-9 gun and standard rounds: 225 penetration, 390 damage
IS3 using BL-9 gun and gold rounds: 265 penetration, 390 damage
Gain: 18% penetration, 0% damage

King Tiger using L/68 gun and standard rounds: 225 penetration, 320 damage
King Tiger using L/68 gun and gold rounds: 285 penetration, 320 damage
Gain: 27% penetration, 0% damage

High-tier tanks don't gain nearly as much advantage by using gold rounds, but mid-tier tanks can gain huge advantages from using derp guns and gold rounds. An M4 Sherman using gold rounds can one-shot another M4 Sherman if he gets a good die roll, whereas that is nowhere near true for high-tier tanks using gold rounds. Those mid-tier derp guns are highly imbalancing to the game; this is not mere "confirmation bias" or groupthink. There are numbers to explain exactly why the effect of gold rounds is far larger in mid-tier than high-tier games.

They could solve this problem quite easily: simply remove HEAT rounds from mini-derp guns. M4 Sherman players can still use gold rounds for advantage, but only in their standard M1A1 gun. This way, they can't get a penetration boost plus an absurd tripling of alpha damage by deciding to use gold; if they switch to mini-derp guns, then they should use them the way they're supposed to be used: with HE rounds.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I haven't really been having a problem with premium ammo, I see it flung around from time to time, but not enough that its been an issue. Now that I don't have to spend actual money on it, I carry some in most of my tanks, though in some its annoying. For example, HEAT round for the Priest tend to bounce off most of what you'd want to use them on.

If anybody doesn't know, you can tell a premium shot from a regular one by the color of the shell tracer, for regular ammo, the tracer is kind of a tanish white, for premium its light blue.

[Skywalker_T-65]

I haven't had real problems either. But again, that's probably because the only tank I would really notice it with is the Crusader (at least for Mini-Derps) and that thing has paper armor anyway.

My bigger tanks don't notice premium rounds as much, if only because the T-150 has strong enough armor to still bounce lower tier ones, and higher tier tanks (T7/T8) have no problem penning my 3601/T-150 anyway.

EDIT: Though looking at the stats, it seems like the T-150/3601 still wouldn't be able to bounce even normal shells, but they still do.

[Imperial528]

I've been derped by PzIVs in my M6, though it has been more a major annoyance than anything game-changing. They are generally stupid, popping out from behind a rock firing straight at my front point-blank from point blank range, and then are surprised when I ram them (at full speed usually, since I don't slow down) and plow a 90mm round into them.
Now, I can't do this when they have support, but then usually it is their allies I worry about more, since I find most derp PzIVs I encounter wait too long for the aiming circle to close after scooting out of cover to fire at me, letting me end them pretty quick by scooting out when they do, firing, and scooting back while they sit their in shock, then finish them when they try a second time.

[The Vortex Empire]

Mid-tier HEAT is only a major problem when you have a full platoon of 3 good players all using it, but a full platoon of good players will dominate the game HEAT or no HEAT.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Yeah, I had that happen first hand in my last T-150 battle. We had a pair of PzV/M10's, and a Comet all in a Platoon Wolfpack. My 150 was their heavy support, and we tore apart the enemies flank like it wasn't there. Too bad its so rare.

[OmegaChief]

You know, since I started reading this thread, I have taken much greater pleasure in every one of the 3601 kills my Jumbo Sherman makes, which is usually a fair few.

Because all the while I hear Skywalker go "Oh man it is the best tank ever" while I watch them burn

[Skywalker_T-65]

Hey, when I drive it the thing is the best tank ever


In all seriousness though...the 3601 is great when it has a good driver. When it goes against another same-tier tank with a better driver (like you Omega) its just as likely to die as any other tank.

[Vendetta]

M4 Sherman using standard M1A1 gun: 128 penetration, 115 damage
M4 Sherman using derp gun with HEAT: 150 penetration, 350 damage
Gain: 17% penetration, 204% damage

On the other hand, the M1A1 fires twice as fast as the 105, so the DPM increase is only about 50%, and each miss is more costly in terms of time the enemy has to wail on you between loads, and you lose the ability to engage well at range because the howitzers have higher dispersion and longer shell travel time, making them harder to hit with.

You might think "it has been made so much easymode" for those tanks, but actually the winrate for the Sherman has only gone up about 2% on both the RU and EU servers (the ones that Wargaming use for balance calculations) and that's actually just a continuation of a trend that's been ongoing for quite a while now.

So, the effect really isn't as significant as you think. There's an effect, but it's not a complete balance shift. If it were you'd be seeing nothing but M4s and PzIVs at tier 5, and that's not the case. So, the chances are that they might rebalance that specific gun somehow (WG try to hold every tank at 50% winrate, well, every tank except the B1), but balance in an online game is an eternally ongoing process anyway. (I've not counted the PzIV due to the other changes made to the tank in the same period, with the Schmalturm removed and introduced as a premium configuration).

I haven't had real problems either. But again, that's probably because the only tank I would really notice it with is the Crusader (at least for Mini-Derps) and that thing has paper armor anyway.

.

Correction, the Crusader won't notice at all because the standard HE from bomb chuckers will penetrate it anyway.

And this all harks back to an adage in strategy games. Don't plan for what you think your opponent is going to do, plan for what he is capable of doing. That means if you see an M4 in the vicinity be wary of it until you know what it's packing, either from its behaviour, shell trails, or what it does to targets (and there's always someone in WoT willing to be the lemming that shows you).

[Nephtys]

Going up 2% is actually a huge shift in this game. Especially when you consider only a fraction of players (High tier players mostly who don't need to level out of the M4) are going to be greatly using gold rounds. But those players are creating a 2% shift?

Remember, this is a game where 50 percent of players are 48% winrate. And 10 percent are 50%. And 5 percent are 53%+.

Going up two percent on an already capable vehicle is a pretty big deal.

---

As for M1A1 vs 105 DPS, well. One issue the M4 runs into is that there's some vehicles it encounters that it just can't engage well. KVs of various sorts are the biggest offenders, and T7 heavies are generally highly resistant to M1A1 76mm shells. Likewise, the M4's low armor, high profile makes it vulnerable to counter-fire when staying out long enough to toss shells.

The 105 gets around that by simultaneously jacking up both the Alpha and the Pen, while having higher DPM nominally even without considering what advantage high Alpha brings.

[Mr Bean]

Keep in mind the lower fire rate works both ways. Yes it takes longer to reload a 105mm using gold rounds. On the other hand your exposed for less time because your only peaking once every nine seconds vs one every four seconds. And in WoT that's a big deal to be out and exposed. Fighting an tier 6 TD with an 85mmm it hurts to get hit and while my 76mm is firing it's second shot and I'm backing up he will fire his second shot before I can escape.

Meaning in that situation I sneak out tag him with a gold round do 310 and he hits me for 180.
VS
I sneak out hit him for 120 he hits me for 180 then I hit him for 160 and he hits me for another 200 before I can fully escape.

And because of the nature of the round every time I get a hit the chance of crew death is much higher with my gold round then my two standard rounds. Something along the lines of times as likely.

[xthetenth]

Also, effective DPM and actual DPM are very different beasts. Actual DPM is a lab measure. You start with an empty gun and just crank out damage till infinity. Effective DPM you start with a loaded gun and only fire till all of one side is dead. The effective DPM on a heat 105 is much higher than that on a 76mm both due to the very large frontloaded alpha and short mid tier engagement times.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Random, but you know what I've found interesting? The fact that most people on the WoT Forums seem to despise the IS-4, while I found it the best of the T10 tanks on the Test Server.

Kind of like how they hate the DB which I also find fun. Seems like I'm odd in my taste for tanks

[xthetenth]

I'm an unabashed fanwhore for the 4502 A. A lot of people hate it. They drive it like a derpy King Tiger and get a derpy King Tiger. It also happens to be one of the best medium killers in the game and amazing at fighting with maneuverability.

If you don't like at least one unconventional tank you don't have any creativity and probably drive badly.

[Simon_Jester]

Could you describe examples of good 4502A tactics?

[Skywalker_T-65]

I love the T-150 and am firmly convinced that people only overlook it because of the KV-1S and the KV-2 being its tier-mates

[xthetenth]

Could you describe examples of good 4502A tactics?

Don't be a frontal heavy tank. Go for where medium tanks go. Try to find medium tanks that are alone and keep your front to them, which you can do with the silly hull traverse that tank has. When dealing with higher tier heavies, try to flank. It's got a lot of acceleration and good speed so it's a lot more flexible in that regard for going to flanking positions. If you can find positions to peek with just your turret, go for it, it's quite bouncy and you have good acceleration even on hills. You can mulch mediums, so do that preferentially, you can even take on tier nines and do a decent job of it, your alpha is a lot closer to them than tier 8 mediums. When peeking, try to be shooting from the side but remember to use the front turret to let you slope the front armor a lot.

It's a very fiddly tank to drive, but if you keep thinking you can do a lot with it.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Not a very impressive battle, but in the vein of my first Steel Wall:

Victory!
Battle: Cliff Sunday, December 09, 2012 12:01:47 PM
Vehicle: Crusader
Experience received: 310
Credits received: 8,953
Battle Achievements: Steel Wall

A Steel Wall...in a Crusader. Relates to my first one, because that one was in a Stuart. Still not sure how I got the first one, but the Crusader one was because I had an A-13 and T-50 pumping shells into me, and they couldn't do enough damage to kill me

[Simon_Jester]

IMO, the easiest way to get Steel Wall is to take on an rookie driver in an autocannon-armed tank in close combat. He's too stupid to realize your tank is immune to 20mm fire at all angles, but by GOD will he keep trying! If he hoses you down with a few belts of ammo at close range, that's a "potential" of several hundred points of damage right there, and dozens of hits, despite the entire attack having been no real threat to your tank. The M3 Stuart is pretty capable of this; its all-round protection is pretty good against autocannon and the lowest-tier 37/40/45mm guns.

The second-easiest way, I think, is to do it in a Tier 4 or 5 match. Since the threshold for Steel Wall is to take 1000 damage from 10 hits (some of which, obviously, bounce), you really don't benefit from getting up into higher tiers where all guns do 200-400 points of damage per shot. That just makes it needlessly hard.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

My friend's two most used tanks are the Churchill and Stuart, and every single one of his Steel Walls is from the latter. I wonder how much is related to the low-tier autocannons that have impressive DPS on paper but have such low pen that even a Stuart's front plate becomes invincible.

Edit: Blah Simon you jerk :L

[Skywalker_T-65]

Yeah, in retrospect the Stuart one makes more sense (other than somehow bouncing shells from a T-18). The Crusader is interesting in that they were penning me for the most part, just doing so little damage it didn't actually kill me. Granted I was down to 25 HP at the end of the 'everyone shoot the Brit' spree...but still

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

All three of my Steel Walls have been in an AMX 40. Would have had a fourth if it wasn't for that lucky direct artillery hit on Erlenberg, though in that match I somehow managed to get Sniper.

[ryacko]

I have 101 steel walls out of 9,660 games.
12 in my Ram-II
12 in my KV (when there was a KV tank)
4 in my IS-8
18 in my superpershing
8 in my IS-3
9 in my IS
5 in my KV-13
2 in my KV-1S
5 in my Jumbo Sherman
4 in my T-150
8 in my KV-4
4 in my KV-3

etc etc...

[Dendrobius]

The only Steel Wall I've received was from a Hetzer of all things. It's surprising how many people think a Hetzer is squishy from the front and try to smash the crap out of it, when the majority of the shot end up bouncing. Then the 105mm derpcannon erases them from existence.

Also, it is no fun to end up in a practically all heavy match with a PzIII/IV. Even with my mate in a M4 and us platooned and on Teamspeak, there isn't a hell of a lot we can do when 4 or 5 heavies all come down with the wrath of an angry god and our own heavies are goddamn pretending to be TDs. Uggggg.

However, 2 mediums where we're in the middle of the tier ranking means it'll be a good match. To crush light tanks, see SPGs driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of tank destroyers as they are flanked is an experience unmatched in WoT.

[Skywalker_T-65]

I just ran into my first Mutant-M6 (M6A2E1). Very odd looking tank...