STGOD 4 OOC Thread

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-05-01 12:20am

All right, all right. I'll just take so long to crack it that it'll be utterly worthless by the time its done. That acceptable?

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-05-01 12:24am

Yeah, sure. I personally don't think it is going to be that big of an issue, anyways, particularly since I am not buying the books, merely interested in the knowledge that can be gained from them, so Aly really doesnt have anything on me. And he has very little on the Floaters and Ousters, for that matter. But that is just my opinion, and something that will have to be settled in game. I didnt make that post as a pointed comment on your decryption efforts, merely to point out to everyone the role that encoded transmissions should play.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-05-01 12:32am

Very little? We have knowledge that they got away with functioning spellbooks and are not likely to have dumped them off in the Void. I reiterate about nuclear manuals...

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-05-01 12:37am

Rogue 9 wrote:Very little? We have knowledge that they got away with functioning spellbooks and are not likely to have dumped them off in the Void. I reiterate about nuclear manuals...

And like I said, this is a thing to be settled IN-game, when Aly gets back.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-01 12:48am

Rogue 9 wrote:Very little? We have knowledge that they got away with functioning spellbooks and are not likely to have dumped them off in the Void. I reiterate about nuclear manuals...

It's really not as bad as Alyrium has been making out though, and if it is, he should seriously reconsider how his magic operates. Right now, nobody has the means to replicate his level of magical power, and even if they could it should not be something which utterly neuters his power. To have that sort of a vulnerability is just begging for it to be exploited, and if he can't deal with that possibility, he shouldn't have put it there in the first place.

As I see it, the other nation's understanding of magic and ability to harness it will slowly increase. This is the way it is with every "technology" in the game. There shouldn't be any "all or nothing" techs here, where if one nation loses a secret it's automatic game over for them.

So, yes, you have the knowledge that the Floaters, and quite possibly the Ousters have copies of the spellbooks. Straha said as much, and Alyrium said, and I quote, "Your hands are clean... we will deal with them later". (Frigidmagi, you should take note that Aly said this, unless you deliberately mean to continue the current line of conversation with Straha (you didn't hear from the Arcane Empire yet, or whatnot, it does happen).

Okay, so now the floaters and the ousters are a potential threat. Feel free to focus all your suspiscion and demands on the floaters and Ousters.

In the meantime, Aly should lay down some more concrete terms for what his magic can and cannot do, what limitations there are on it, and so on. Simply falling back on the D&D rules (which he often times gets wrong and have a strong potential for breaking the DS9 tech barrier) when it suits him and relying on the DS9 tech level on other times won't fly. He should pick one or the other, and stick with it, and in this case, he's got to pick the DS9-equivilant tech level if he wants to stay within the rules of the game.

Is it a breach in national security? Yes. Should you respond to it? Of course, as you see fit. Claiming that it will horrendously unbalance the game is irrelevant. Any attempts to do so will be slapped down by either group consensus or a modstick. Will it give other powers an advantage against Alyrium's power? Of course. So would a detailed knowledge of how, say, Dahak's datasphere works. Does it unbalance the game? No. Does it provide a valid reason for conflict? Could very well do that indeed.

So take it, go with it. Build on it. Atomize fleets. Have fun.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-05-01 02:43am

The problem is that Aly has "all his eggs in one basket". Magic like his, well it really has no place in the future. However, that’s what he wants, so be it. Thanks to modern psionics and the like there are "ways" of dampening or even nullifying his magic completely. Any text on his magic would provide outside researchers a better understanding on how it works, and how to combat it effectively; it is, as they say, his Achilles Heel. However, while this is his weakness, he is doing virtually everything in his power to see that it isn't exploited. Unfortunately, we are making that hard on him, because well, that’s how the game works. You present a weakness and people try and capitalize on it.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-05-01 02:48am

Now, the main threat that I see is Mordenkainan's disjunction. Toss one of those babies at one of his ships and its dead in space, power plant and all weapons gone. Faced with the prospect of other powers being able to effectively gut your entire navy in minutes with a simple counter, wouldn't you scramble to stop it? Pushing a powerful empire into a corner is a bad idea.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-05-01 02:50am

Rogue 9 wrote:Now, the main threat that I see is Mordenkainan's disjunction. Toss one of those babies at one of his ships and its dead in space, power plant and all weapons gone. Faced with the prospect of other powers being able to effectively gut your entire navy in minutes with a simple counter, wouldn't you scramble to stop it? Pushing a powerful empire into a corner is a bad idea.

What level spell is that? Because we could always put a spell level limit on all other powers...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-05-01 02:55am

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-05-01 02:57am

I would say the non-magic using nations (which I thinks is everyone except Aly) can only learn about magic to the point where they can counter it, to a point, rather than learn how to cast spells.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-05-01 02:58am

Rogue 9 wrote:9th.

So, why don't we say that for the foreseeable future the farthest any nation (besides Aly or magic using nations) can get is 5th level?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-05-01 03:00am

That's the thing. Mordie's, as we gamers refer to it, is the ultimate counter. It permanently disjoins all magic in its area, and its a large area. Combine that with Alyrium's small ships and you can imagine the havoc that would wreak. All magic in the ships, gone. For good, until it can be hauled back into port and undergo an extensive and expensive re-enchantment.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-05-01 03:04am

Not my deal to make. Have to wait for Alyrium to get back.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-05-01 03:07am

Rogue 9 wrote:Not my deal to make. Have to wait for Alyrium to get back.

It's more of a game balance issue though, though I can understand what you're saying.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-05-01 03:10am

I see no problem in not getting any spells at all, just knowledge on their workings to help learn ways to counter it; the reason thirdfain waits the books. It is a fair reason.
His ships are very small, most of his ships could get tosssed around with ease by tractor beams. Hell, when the fighting gets in close, it might be more effective to just start tossing his small cruisers around. Sure you can counter a tractor beam easily enough, but if your only in tow for 2 or 3 seconds, there isn't much to react, and they can't exactly teleport the ship out; well they could, but the hull wouldn't go with them

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2004-05-01 07:52am

Stormbringer? I thought the PIR was wiped out in the wars.

They had better be silent partners in the new ITA. If you're planning on playing them, that would give you to much of an advantage.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-01 09:37am

I don't plan on giving my agents "Mordy's."

Addiitionally, I should point out that if these books are Aly's equiv of nuclear secrets, then why the livid fuck is he putting primers for them all over his empire? I meant these to be low-level magic boks, teaching 2cnd level spells at the most, dealing more with magical technique than actual spellcasting.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-01 10:45am

Rogue 9 wrote:That's the thing. Mordie's, as we gamers refer to it, is the ultimate counter. It permanently disjoins all magic in its area, and its a large area.

Large area? Unless Alyrium has impossibly small ships, there's no way that even with a 30 ft. radius spell one casting could utterly wipe out even one of his smallest ships.

On top of that, it's 9th level magic, meaning you need a 17th level caster to cast it even once. Ignoring the rules of D&D, we can thusly assume that you need a certain level of refinement and power in order to achieve such an effect. Refinement and power which no other nation currently has.

and you can imagine the havoc that would wreak. All magic in the ships, gone. For good, until it can be hauled back into port and undergo an extensive and expensive re-enchantment.

Actually, it's not as powerful as that. First of all, any permenan enchantments get a willpower save. Any items in possession of a person get to use either use the items willpower or the owners. Additionally, there is only a 1% chance per level of any relics being destroyed.

Plus, the entire bit about destroying a caster's ability to cast magic, period? That's not a standard effect of the spell, Alyrium got that wrong. That only occurs if a caster manages to destroy a major artifact and then fails to make the subsequent willpower save (DC 25), and destroying an artifact has other consequences.

So, no, it's not nearly as powerful as Alyrium has made it out to be, but then neither is Charm Person, Fireball, etc. and so on. Once again, he should not rely on the rules as directly stated in D&D and instead just make it so that his magic gives him comparable abilities to the other nations in the STGOD.

As far as I'm conserned, Mord's Disjunction is essentially an EMP attack which affects magic, and that's how I plan on treating it. It should also be noted that there ARE methods of protecting against Mord's Disjunction, similar to EMP Hardening. It's called an ANTI-MAGIC FIELD. Mord's Disjunction has the same chance of taking one of those out as it does an artifact, and if it fails, all objects in the anti-magic field are kept safe.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-01 11:09am

Rogue 9- I did most of the weapons smuggling in civilian shipping (I own a few of the shiipping corps, after all, through BIC,) while Alyrium was instituting his "Liberal Trade Policies." Covert, ""run the blockade" style smuggling provided a tiny fraction of the weapons, after all, Alyrium's foolish initial trade liberalism with a planet full of violent fanatics allowed me to sneak in a bunch of armaments.

After he cracked down, I figured shipments would decrease- as I've said more than once before, a lot of the attacks were done with homemade bombds, not off-planet weaponry.

-edit- and why the fuck were all you people posting last night? It's tent weekend, and a beautiful summer! Go drinking and pick a pretty girl forgodssakes!

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-05-01 01:07pm

Thirdfain wrote:-edit- and why the fuck were all you people posting last night? It's tent weekend, and a beautiful summer! Go drinking and pick a pretty girl forgodssakes!

Some of us arent nearly so lucky, Thirdfain. Where, exactly, should I set up my tent in NYC without the risk of being arrested or mugged or something?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-05-01 01:13pm

See, small suburban schools have one advantage over your city- we can drink ourselves silly on a beautiful, warm summer night, outside on the grass!

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-05-01 04:22pm

Dont worry about it. The way I lokk at it, if you manage to counter my magic, I can figure out a way to counter your technology.

In fact, my mages are working on that as we speak.

And remember, you wont be gaining anything over 2nd level spells with those books...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-05-01 04:23pm

essentially, the issue is hence closed, my government is changing its policies as now that our secret is out, we must adapt to the situation.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-05-01 04:23pm

Thirdfain wrote:See, small suburban schools have one advantage over your city- we can drink ourselves silly on a beautiful, warm summer night, outside on the grass!

Camping? Bah! People have been sacrificing themselves for the past 5,000 years to make sure I have a floor under my feet and an air conditioner in my window. I wouldn’t want to insult them by not making use of all the wonderful technologies which they selflessly made to improve my life. Besides, have you seen the pollen count in New Jersey, they don't make an anti-histamine strong enough to allow for an extended trip outside the safety of my air conditioned dorm.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-05-01 04:30pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Dont worry about it. The way I lokk at it, if you manage to counter my magic, I can figure out a way to counter your technology.

In your OOB, you already HAVE methods of countering technology. You've been doing such things since the beginning. I hope you don't take this as some sort of excuse to make an uber-anti tech field or something. Want to make a magic effect that is the equivilant of an EMP field or somesuch, fine, so long as it stays within the DS9 tech level.