Mass Effect 2

[Ford Prefect]

Man, the game was already sickeningly pro-human WITHOUT 'actually, the Council are keeping the plucky humans down' stuff. You already get nerds saying stupid shit like 'the Krogan are inherently dangerous ergo it is okay to kill them all' and 'the alliance should take over the galaxy because it's in our best interests hurr durr'. Don't vindicate them.

[adam_grif]

Did anybody elect Udina for anything, either a position on the council or the leader of the new human one? I don't know anybody who did. Hated the cunt.

[GuppyShark]

I'd be fine with him being an asshole if he actually seemed competent, but the way he addressed the Council just seemed to piss them off. He was like a whiny child most of the time.

[Gramzamber]

There are no elections no matter what happens, the leader is seemingly picked by fiat of the Almighty Shepard. Though if it were really my choice I'd appoint Kaidan, to a) piss off all the Kaidan haters and b) make Raphael Sbarge Emperor of the galaxy.

Anyway the Terminus Systems in ME1 were more of an excuse so nerds players wouldn't say "well why doesn't the Council send big fleets to solve it's problems!", so you go by yourself to Ilos because the Council doing so would start a war, and we have enough "hur hur aliens are assholes" without just having them not go cause they don't feel like it.

[Vendetta]

There are no elections no matter what happens, the leader is seemingly picked by fiat of the Almighty Shepard. Though if it were really my choice I'd appoint Kaidan, to a) piss off all the Kaidan haters and b) make Raphael Sbarge Emperor of the galaxy.

See, here's the thing about Kaidan, no-one really hates him, they hate Carth Onasi, and he's still Carth-lite.

[neoolong]

There are no elections no matter what happens, the leader is seemingly picked by fiat of the Almighty Shepard. Though if it were really my choice I'd appoint Kaidan, to a) piss off all the Kaidan haters and b) make Raphael Sbarge Emperor of the galaxy.

Anyway the Terminus Systems in ME1 were more of an excuse so nerds players wouldn't say "well why doesn't the Council send big fleets to solve it's problems!", so you go by yourself to Ilos because the Council doing so would start a war, and we have enough "hur hur aliens are assholes" without just having them not go cause they don't feel like it.

Well, there was that one side mission with the pirate Elanos. So Terminus does kinda sorta appear.

[DPDarkPrimus]

There are no elections no matter what happens, the leader is seemingly picked by fiat of the Almighty Shepard. Though if it were really my choice I'd appoint Kaidan, to a) piss off all the Kaidan haters and b) make Raphael Sbarge Emperor of the galaxy.

Kaiden would channel Sherman if put to task like that.

[Stark]

Man, the game was already sickeningly pro-human WITHOUT 'actually, the Council are keeping the plucky humans down' stuff. You already get nerds saying stupid shit like 'the Krogan are inherently dangerous ergo it is okay to kill them all' and 'the alliance should take over the galaxy because it's in our best interests hurr durr'. Don't vindicate them.

It's pro-human because the writing is childish. My feeling is that you either have the council being literally retarded and useless (and yet the leaders of a fair slice of the galaxy) or you have them maintaining their position through an interesting and false galactic situation for hundreds of years.

Basically, they're either idiots for pretty much everything they say and do in ME1, or they didn't realise until it was too late that Saren had gone too far. They don't take your investigation seriously because they already knew Saren did a bunch of bad shit; they ordered it and it's useful to them. It's only the Reapers that was outside their plan (and even that needs work, because no autocratic and ruthless government is going to not study the Keepers).

[Gramzamber]

In all that time, maybe they did study the Keepers. There was nothing interesting to find so they just declare them off limits.
After all, what would they discover? That the Keepers are all networked to a control system within the Citadel?
They're not going to find that the Keepers have a back door exploit for the Reapers to take control of them because the Protheans removed it. So all they'd find out is that they're biological robots linked to the station to provide maintenance.. which they already know.

[Stark]

That's my point; an official ban from the autocratic idiots doesn't mean nobody ever did; just that it was secret, repressed, whatever. Bioware probably expects us to believe they lived there for CENTURIES without studying them (or the part of the station only they can access somehow), but that's just fucking stupid.

The idea that there was 'nothing interesting to find' is so ridiculous on the face of it that it's obviously wrong. If you think (say) the US Army let a bunch of bugs run around the White House (which would also be NORAD and all the fleet HQs) and do .... stuff... and be cool with that you're an idiot.

Again, the plot suggests that since the keepers are essential and the council is stupid/ignorant, they honestly simply never investigated. But since I'm not a complete cretin, that makes no sense. I'm just not as dumb as a Bioware writer. These ARE the guys that rejected all evidence of a giant space robot threat out of hand for no reason, after all.

Maybe Ford was right. Nonhuman = incompetent.

[Gramzamber]

The idea that there was 'nothing interesting to find' is so ridiculous on the face of it that it's obviously wrong. If you think (say) the US Army let a bunch of bugs run around the White House (which would also be NORAD and all the fleet HQs) and do .... stuff... and be cool with that you're an idiot.

If they hadn't known who built the White House and the bugs were essential to it's maintenance then they'd be more cautious.
And my notion that there's not much interesting about the Keepers isn't to justify not researching them, but rather to explain that they probably have been researched and nothing much has ever come of it hence the public perception that the Council has never let anyone research them while the rule is just "don't bother them".
And yes you'd have to have such a law, otherwise you'd have rednecks grabbing Keepers and posing for pictures with them while the Citadel flies into a star or something.

[Vendetta]

And my notion that there's not much interesting about the Keepers isn't to justify not researching them, but rather to explain that they probably have been researched and nothing much has ever come of it hence the public perception that the Council has never let anyone research them while the rule is just "don't bother them".

Except that's you making shit up, not what was in the game.

What was in the game was that researching the keepers was all strictly hush hush and illegal.

Also, the sane thing to do would be to figure out what the keepers are doing and then replace them with a maintenance structure you understand and control.

But the Citadel Council shouldn't feel too stupid for letting that gaping security flaw in their centre of government nearly kill them all. Countless other galactic governments have been buttfucked in exactly the same way.

[neoolong]

They were apparently impossible to study because they destroyed themselves before they could be. Which is suspicious in and of itself.

But, there is that side quest, which apparently finds nothing wrong with them prior to your Ilos run.

[Stark]

I thought the sidequest proved a) they were easy to study without interfering and b) he found something strange signal-wise going on before he was busted?

The Citadel trap is incredibly retarded and stupid, but is core to the plot, so any way of making it more plausible that the Council stayed there (ie, they studied the keepers and felt they had them under control, Saren fed them false information to prevent them learning about the reapers, etc) is good.

[Gramzamber]

Except that's you making shit up, not what was in the game.

It's speculation, yes. But based on events in the game. Their function is already known, only the exact technology behind it isn't.

What was in the game was that researching the keepers was all strictly hush hush and illegal.

After thousands of years of smooth operations the Council doesn't like people fucking with the Keepers, is that so surprising?
What I speculate is that there may have been research in the past, which led to nothing, and the Keepers work. So they'd rather people didn't mess with them.

Also, the sane thing to do would be to figure out what the keepers are doing and then replace them with a maintenance structure you understand and control.

Why? The Keepers serve their purpose. Why fix what isn't broken?

But the Citadel Council shouldn't feel too stupid for letting that gaping security flaw in their centre of government nearly kill them all. Countless other galactic governments have been buttfucked in exactly the same way.

Did you even play the game? The Keepers were not a security flaw - the Protheans fixed that. If anything the Keepers were a security asset, being such a closed and self-regulated system that Sovereign had to barge in and fuck with the control tower directly to achieve it's goals, and it also needed Saren to get in there first to make sure the Citadel wouldn't close.

[Gramzamber]

I thought the sidequest proved a) they were easy to study without interfering and b) he found something strange signal-wise going on before he was busted?

I forget that part, mainly because nothing ever came of it. I finished that quest and there were no follow ups. Which is rather stupid in itself, granted.
I assume that the "strange signal" is talking about the network all the Keepers are under, but honestly it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Keepers are automatons under the Citadel's control.
Assuming the guy was telling the truth, he did seem to be in some shady business with his Volus partner.

The Citadel trap is incredibly retarded and stupid, but is core to the plot, so any way of making it more plausible that the Council stayed there (ie, they studied the keepers and felt they had them under control, Saren fed them false information to prevent them learning about the reapers, etc) is good.

The paradox I find is that if the Protheans hadn't fixed the backdoor, in all the millenia the Council had the Citadel they surely should've found it. The Protheans should've too for that matter. So in that respect it requires both the Council and the Protheans to be blissfully ignorant idiots.

[Stark]

Why? Bioware's whole point is that whole generations of life in the galaxy had just ignorantly lived there and been eliminated because the reaper plan was JUST SO CLEVER! If the Council was that dumb, why would previous lots of residents have been smarter?

I think it makes more dramatic sense for them to have noticed it, and believed they had it under control and that they had nothing to fear - but ban investigation due to the possibility of panic - and have the UNSTOPPABLE ROBOT get them anyway, because he's a force of nature and superior to puny meatbags.

Superior... except gets his ass kicked. Good thing meatbags never just surround the Citadel with pew pew turrets, really; a good thing Bioware thinks everyone would be happy with 'close the Citadel really slowly' and a fleet.

[Gramzamber]

Why? Bioware's whole point is that whole generations of life in the galaxy had just ignorantly lived there and been eliminated because the reaper plan was JUST SO CLEVER! If the Council was that dumb, why would previous lots of residents have been smarter?

I think it makes more dramatic sense for them to have noticed it, and believed they had it under control and that they had nothing to fear - but ban investigation due to the possibility of panic - and have the UNSTOPPABLE ROBOT get them anyway, because he's a force of nature and superior to puny meatbags.

Maybe, but that just replaces massive stupidity with massive arrogance.

Superior... except gets his ass kicked. Good thing meatbags never just surround the Citadel with pew pew turrets, really; a good thing Bioware thinks everyone would be happy with 'close the Citadel really slowly' and a fleet.

Hey Sovereign may be a super advanced death machine, but he's a shitty multi-tasker. Maybe he shouldn't have been trying to kill you by possessing Saren while trying to subvert the station's controls and battling a fleet.
Then again that'd leave you in the tower with your thumb up your nose and players everywhere would yell "WHERE'S MY THRILLING CLIMAX!" and so forth.

[Stark]

Maybe, but that just replaces massive stupidity with massive arrogance.[/qutoe]

How is it massive arrogance? If they identify a problem and believe they've fixed it, that's not 'arrogant'; they are just unprepared for the scale of the threat. They could even have believed it was part fo some kind of Citadel network throughout the galaxy, instead of a 'lol u die' button for giant alien robots the existence of which they wouldn't know. The climax could have revealed the council knew what you were talking about and were playing the game, but were caught out by magic alien space robots. That's better than being literally retarded and worthless plotwise.

Hey Sovereign may be a super advanced death machine, but he's a shitty multi-tasker. Maybe he shouldn't have been trying to kill you by possessing Saren while trying to subvert the station's controls and battling a fleet.
Then again that'd leave you in the tower with your thumb up your nose and players everywhere would yell "WHERE'S MY THRILLING CLIMAX!" and so forth.

At least we'd have avoided the devs pathetically claiming there are no missiles in ME because they cutscene guys totally fucked up over a year-long production process and NOBODY NOTICED.

[Starglider]

Superior... except gets his ass kicked. Good thing meatbags never just surround the Citadel with pew pew turrets, really; a good thing Bioware thinks everyone would be happy with 'close the Citadel really slowly' and a fleet.

The Citadel did have defense turrets; Sovereign managed to shut them down, but you reactivate a couple to kill a Geth dropship in the spacewalk sequence. If they're distributed like that all over the surface there could be hundreds on the central tower alone. However with the big deal being made about 'kilometer long main guns' on the dreadnoughts being the main killing weapons, which still couldn't penetrate Sovereign's shields, I doubt more point defense turrets would've helped. You'd have to build massive weapons platforms to make a difference, and why would the council waste resources on that when there was no known enemy likely to attack the Citadel? Better to just build more ships instead.

[Stark]

No, not relying on Citadel guns; their own turrets. Sov was slaughtered by massed fire, so if your average culture just positioned a few million guns or missiles between the gate to the Citadel, Sov would have been trivially defeated. Instead the Citadel stuff is supposed to be enough (even though it closes so slowly you could lob half a dozen nukes inside and kill everyone).

Saying guns couldn't damage Sov is ridiculous since he was blown to shit by the Human (ie small, primitive) fleet in maybe one minute. Using missiles, no less, which don't work in ME. Good thing when the Council said 'put fleets at the gates leading here' they meant 'ignore Sov and don't fight him ever'.

[Gramzamber]

I imagine the Geth were covering Sovereign, and they seemed to do a good job of harassing the fleet. They can finish off the Ascension if the Alliance doesn't intervene.
Which rather questions the absence of Citadel guns right there, they should've turned the Geth fleet into tissue paper and let the Citadel fleet concentrate on Sovereign.

I can only guess that maybe the Citadel was armed since like was said the control tower is, but Saren disabled them along with delaying the station arm's closure when he got there.
Which means the Citadel follows the standard Star Trekkey idea of every single gun being disabled from a single point with no redundancy whatsoever.

[Stark]

Exactly; Sov needed a screening force of Geth to beeline for the Citadel. Thanks to the 'amazing space combat' Turians who got driven straight through the Citadel fleet was distracted and totally destroyed.

By missiles.

[Starglider]

Instead the Citadel stuff is supposed to be enough (even though it closes so slowly you could lob half a dozen nukes inside and kill everyone).

That may be what the point defence turrets we saw are supposed to stop. The Citadel probably has its own mass effect shielding as well; the city didn't seem to be damaged by the massive amounts of shrapnel from the battle, only the tower (which had its defences taken down and then got hit by a really big chunk of Sovereign).

Saying guns couldn't damage Sov is ridiculous since he was blown to shit by the Human (ie small, primitive) fleet in maybe one minute.

Using their main guns, which are mass accelerators hundreds of meters long. According to the fluff, this is necessary to punch through capship shields; this is why frigates can't do shit against cruisers until the later have their shields depleted by capship fire. I don't think we saw any turreted capship guns at all; they have omnidirectional lasers for point defence and possibly gravitic torpedo launchers (certainly the fighters have those). Small turreted mass accelerators would only be good for dreadnoughts to shoot up frigates, and normally the lasers, fighters or escorts can fill that role more effectively.

To put those useful anti-capship weapons on the Citadel you'd have to build truly massive surface structures... which you'd then have to shield to prevent them being easily destroyed by attackers... and we don't know if the Citadel's power grid could support the massive power demands, so they might need their own local fusion reactors as well. At that point you might as well just build more ships. It's not as if the Citadel is even a military base, it's essentially a civilian structure, and massive pre-emptive fortification of it would probably run into political problems even if you could handwave the lack of a clear threat.

[adam_grif]

No, not relying on Citadel guns; their own turrets. Sov was slaughtered by massed fire, so if your average culture just positioned a few million guns or missiles between the gate to the Citadel, Sov would have been trivially defeated. Instead the Citadel stuff is supposed to be enough (even though it closes so slowly you could lob half a dozen nukes inside and kill everyone).

Saying guns couldn't damage Sov is ridiculous since he was blown to shit by the Human (ie small, primitive) fleet in maybe one minute. Using missiles, no less, which don't work in ME. Good thing when the Council said 'put fleets at the gates leading here' they meant 'ignore Sov and don't fight him ever'.

Sovereign was totally immune to weapons fire until you killed his avatar on the ground, which inexplicably lowered his shields and allowed the puny earthling fleets to kill it. Why this happened was not explained. Seems like a pretty big design flaw to me.

Also, missiles do work, but they're only used on fighters iirc. Disruptor Torpedoes they call them. What's odd about their operation is that the codex claims that they have to be launched from fighters because they have to use mass effect fields to drastically increase their mass so they can overwhelm shielding. That doesn't really make any sense, because we've seen that mass effect fields can be raised or lowered at will, so there's nothing stopping them from just firing swarms of missiles then making them massive once they're really close to something.