Mass Effect 2

[Stark]

Except they didn't use mass drivers at all; they used missiles. Oops, poor Bioware. A few million space platforms covered in missiles = Sov is dead. Not my problem Bioware is a pack of retards.

Building more ships would have worked too; but the Council was so stupid they didn't bring back the fleet when they said they would or concentrate them along the gate path Sov had to use like they said they would, either. If the Turian fleet hadn't been so 100% totally useless it's likely they'd kill Sov anyway (since Saren would have filled Sov in on the Citadel fleet capabilities and Sov never used Geth in the past since they didn't exist).

Hey, wow, that means Sov is both stupid AND is lucky to have ever killed anyone! The Prothean Citadel fleet must therefore have been WEAKER THAN THE TURIAN ONE! Apalling, but could be twisted to support the whole 'Council knows what's going on' thing, and that it was Saren's betrayal and his taking the Council Geth stormtroopers to Sov that caused the crisis.

If the battle had involved the Geth constantly stopping the Ascendant firing it's main (Sov-killing by design) weapon at Sov while he was in transit it might have been better than 'repetitive and boring constant cuts to space battle you don't care about'.

[Gramzamber]

The strength of the Prothean Citadel fleet is largely irrelevant though, since the idea is Sovereign (or it's predecessor) could remotely use the backdoor Keeper exploit to activate the Citadel's mass relay function and bring all the Reapers in to eat everyone.

[Stark]

I thought they took that out? I haven't played in ages, maybe the Protheans found out about it and wrote down the fix before dying in typical crap story fashion.

[Starglider]

Except they didn't use mass drivers at all; they used missiles. Oops, poor Bioware. A few million space platforms covered in missiles = Sov is dead. Not my problem Bioware is a pack of retards.

You still haven't explained why the council would be motivated to invest in massive static defenses when there was no apparent threat up until a month or so before the attack. It's not as if Washington DC is ringed with thousands of machine gun pillboxes and artillery batteries just in case an army of Russian terrorist paratroopers suddenly drops in from a fleet of invisible stealth planes.

Building more ships would have worked too; but the Council was so stupid they didn't bring back the fleet when they said they would or concentrate them along the gate path Sov had to use like they said they would, either.

Well sure, but 'council is too stupid to believe the evidence of massive evil AI battleship' is a plot point. The main reason that fails as writing is that after Virmire the Normandy flight recorders should have plenty of hard evidence of the thing's size and capabilities - certainly enough for a council that considers one dubious quality mp3 file to be 'irrefutable evidence' of Sarren going rogue.

If the Turian fleet hadn't been so 100% totally useless it's likely they'd kill Sov anyway (since Saren would have filled Sov in on the Citadel fleet capabilities and Sov never used Geth in the past since they didn't exist).

Incidentally that also means that if 1,000,000 missile sattelites were pre-emptively deployed around the Citadel, Saren would have known about them and Sovereign would just have had to develop a better plan.

Hey, wow, that means Sov is both stupid AND is lucky to have ever killed anyone! The Prothean Citadel fleet must therefore have been WEAKER THAN THE TURIAN ONE!

Previously, the Reapers didn't need to physically come to the Citadel, they could control it by remote FTL signal. The Prothean fleet didn't face one Reaper, it faced thousands jumping in at once after the Citadel mysteriously activated (there's no indication that they got any warning at all). This is all explained by the damaged Prothean AI dialogue.

[adam_grif]

I thought they took that out? I haven't played in ages, maybe the Protheans found out about it and wrote down the fix before dying in typical crap story fashion.

Yes they took it out, but only after it had already been used against them. The research team stationed on Ilos deactivated it after they awoke from Cryosleep after the reapers returned to darkspace.

[Gramzamber]

I thought they took that out? I haven't played in ages, maybe the Protheans found out about it and wrote down the fix before dying in typical crap story fashion.

The Reapers came in and fucked over everyone as planned. It was the scientists on Ilos who devised a patch for the Keepers afterwards, travelled to the Citadel to use it after the Reapers left then.. died I guess.

[Aaron]

I thought they took that out? I haven't played in ages, maybe the Protheans found out about it and wrote down the fix before dying in typical crap story fashion.

Dude, they did. Vigil, the Prothean AI that you chat with on Ilos tells you about it and then releases you to take advantage of it. That's why Saren had to find Ilos and get beamed onto the station. Sovereign tried to activate the Keepers with the backdoor and got shut down. Cue you hoping planets after Saren.

[Stark]

Yes they took it out, but only after it had already been used against them. The research team stationed on Ilos deactivated it after they awoke from Cryosleep after the reapers returned to darkspace.

Now I remember that bit. Luckily the 'purge the galaxy' phase is pretty lazy; it's still a traditional 'doomed ancient race gives you the secret that couldn't save them' business.

[adam_grif]

Yes, they were most lazy in their galaxy purging. You'd think they'd check all of the completely habitable planets like Ilos :/

The fact that so many Prothean ruins survived is an insult to the Reaper's competence, it's stated they actively purged the galaxy of evidence of the Protheans.

[Stark]

You still haven't explained why the council would be motivated to invest in massive static defenses when there was no apparent threat up until a month or so before the attack. It's not as if Washington DC is ringed with thousands of machine gun pillboxes and artillery batteries just in case an army of Russian terrorist paratroopers suddenly drops in from a fleet of invisible stealth planes.

Go away. I didn't say they should have; I merely said Sov is lucky they didnt' because he would have been ignomiously defeated. Luckily the Council is both stupid AND docile.

Well sure, but 'council is too stupid to believe the evidence of massive evil AI battleship' is a plot point. The main reason that fails as writing is that after Virmire the Normandy flight recorders should have plenty of hard evidence of the thing's size and capabilities - certainly enough for a council that considers one dubious quality mp3 file to be 'irrefutable evidence' of Sarren going rogue.

After the attack on the first planet - with the GIANT PURPLE SPACEHAND - there should have been a serious militarisation instead of a 'lol you guys got raped, probably wasn't Saren though' response.

Incidentally that also means that if 1,000,000 missile sattelites were pre-emptively deployed around the Citadel, Saren would have known about them and Sovereign would just have had to develop a better plan.

Sure; Saren's betrayal and use of Geth is still critical. I think it'd be better that way, since instead of the ubber Citadel trap and everyone being retarded it'd be a case of Sov corrupting and using the Spectre idea (which is stupid) against the Council, Saren would have been an actual character, etc.

Previously, the Reapers didn't need to physically come to the Citadel, they could control it by remote FTL signal. The Prothean fleet didn't face one Reaper, it faced thousands jumping in at once after the Citadel mysteriously activated (there's no indication that they got any warning at all). This is all explained by the damaged Prothean AI dialogue.

Yah, I totally forgot about the Illos cryoroom AI.

[Gramzamber]

Yes, they were most lazy in their galaxy purging. You'd think they'd check all of the completely habitable planets like Ilos :/

The fact that so many Prothean ruins survived is an insult to the Reaper's competence, it's stated they actively purged the galaxy of evidence of the Protheans.

If that's the case then they're monumental fuckups.
I can buy Ilos, a remote planet off the grid so to speak. But what about Feros? How do you miss an entire ecumenopolis?

[Stark]

Phew, not a triple post.

Does the Citadel 'know' where the Reapers are? Is it locked in to the RV and activated, or does Sov send coordinates as well as a go signal?

[Gramzamber]

Phew, not a triple post.

Does the Citadel 'know' where the Reapers are? Is it locked in to the RV and activated, or does Sov send coordinates as well as a go signal?

I think it's stated that the Reapers have a Citadel-equivalent mass relay at their location in darkspace. So the Citadel doesn't need to know anything, their relay just needs the Citadel to lock onto.

[adam_grif]

The Asari have been on the Citadel for thousands of years, the Turians for about a thousand as galactic military enforcement. Anybody else think it's mighty strange that the humans had technological parity with both civs during the first contact war? It's not like a "the road not traveled" situation, where people don't understand how or why the tech works. The civs actively understand the mass effect technology, the only bit they don't get is mass relays.

[Stark]

Humans stole prothean tech, just like everyone else. Everyone is retarded EQUALLY.

[adam_grif]

All the civs are constantly developing new tech, the humans with their carriers (lol space carriers) and medigel etc. The Normandy was a Human-Turian joint venture. So how could the Asari have not made any progress in tech for the 1000+ years they've had access to it? They had 2 separate interstellar wars during this time, it's not as though there was never a need to develop technological supremacy.

The protheans reverse engineered mass relays in the time they had, which was shorter than the time the current civilizations have had (since they had decades longer thanks to inactivation of citadel relay), so it's not like it's unachievable in the time-frames.

[Gramzamber]

There does seem to be an almost dogmatic attitude when it comes to the older races and the Protheans. It's Prothean technology damnit! They knew all! How dare you try to improve on perfection! And so on.

The humans bring new stuff to the table, yes. Because we're incredibly awesome and aliens r dumb remember?

[Aaron]

The Asari have been on the Citadel for thousands of years, the Turians for about a thousand as galactic military enforcement. Anybody else think it's mighty strange that the humans had technological parity with both civs during the first contact war? It's not like a "the road not traveled" situation, where people don't understand how or why the tech works. The civs actively understand the mass effect technology, the only bit they don't get is mass relays.

I'm still wondering why anyone would make the seat of galactic government some station they found in a nebula.

Seems that the Turians are the Council's attack dogs, going by the in game treaty they have restricting ship building. Perhaps there is something similar limiting tech and the humans happened to stumble into an arms cache that let them get there quicker. Or going by Ash's comment about the Asari battlewagon, the humans aren't.

The Citadel fleet got taken by surprise after all and by the time the Alliance fleet showed up it was over bar the shouting. So we didn't really get to see much of the other races firepower.

[adam_grif]

The humans bring new stuff to the table, yes. Because we're incredibly awesome and aliens r dumb remember?

How could I forget.

Chalk another one up for Bioware's creative incompetence.

[GuppyShark]

What evidence is there of technological stasis among the Citadel races? All the seeming parity among Council-ruled races indicates is technology sharing.

[adam_grif]

The Asari have been on the Citadel for thousands of years, the Turians for about a thousand as galactic military enforcement. Anybody else think it's mighty strange that the humans had technological parity with both civs during the first contact war? It's not like a "the road not traveled" situation, where people don't understand how or why the tech works. The civs actively understand the mass effect technology, the only bit they don't get is mass relays.

I'm still wondering why anyone would make the seat of galactic government some station they found in a nebula.

Seems that the Turians are the Council's attack dogs, going by the in game treaty they have restricting ship building. Perhaps there is something similar limiting tech and the humans happened to stumble into an arms cache that let them get there quicker. Or going by Ash's comment about the Asari battlewagon, the humans aren't.

The Citadel fleet got taken by surprise after all and by the time the Alliance fleet showed up it was over bar the shouting. So we didn't really get to see much of the other races firepower.

The Asari flagship is the only of its class. Although we didn't get comparisons from the final cutscene, we do know that the human military is on par with / superior to the Turian military man for man and ship for ship, since we held our own in the first contact war and were only losing because of superior Turian numbers.

[Gramzamber]

I'm still wondering why anyone would make the seat of galactic government some station they found in a nebula.

Well it's a powerful, easily defendable (well in theory) station that comes pre-installed with a city infrastructure and all those other nice things a civilisation likes.
I'm not sure it's inevitable that people would make it their capital other than, say, a totally awesome holiday destination every single time but there it is.

[adam_grif]

What evidence is there of technological stasis among the Citadel races? All the seeming parity among Council-ruled races indicates is technology sharing.

See above statements. Less than 50 years before the events of the game, the humans had never heard of the council and the Turians declared war on them. We were on the defensive because the Turians vastly outnumbered us, and had approximate technological parity with them, militarily.

[neoolong]

I thought the sidequest proved a) they were easy to study without interfering and b) he found something strange signal-wise going on before he was busted?

Not exactly. It was a special scanner, previously they'd kill themselves. So it was only after quite a bit of work that it was possible to scan them.

But the whole situation is screwed up. There's only ever a set number of them, and nobody knows where the replacements come from.

How the hell are there still parts of the station unexplored after that long?

[Stark]

The Citadel fleet got taken by surprise after all and by the time the Alliance fleet showed up it was over bar the shouting. So we didn't really get to see much of the other races firepower.

If they got taken by surprise after their commanders said 'listen there is a big spacehand coming to kill us with Geth backup' and 'move local fleets to the relays and try to stop the outside Citadel space' they're even dumber than 'sit directly in path of spacehand, point at screen uselessly, and get run over' suggested.

Fucking Turians. Everyone SAYS they're amazing space warriors but the game itself shows them to be incompetent morons. The relay even goes BUZZ FLASH BANG POP when it's being used, and yet they were taken by surprise. WHY HAVE LOS TO THE RELAY WHEN YOU'RE EXPECTING AN ATTACK LOL?!