Clean install chopped out of Vista upgrade discs

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-01-30 02:02pm

This is pretty much what I've been reading elsewhere. A resounding "meh". Now, you can try and sell Vista to me till the cows come home on how it has better security, supports a new industry standard code or is better at rendering whatever. But if you can't get Joe Bloggs to care one iota for it, it's less than useless.

The only reason we even care is because Windows is used in 90% and more of PCs worldwide. The minute MS loses that guaranteed monopoly (and looking at the number of people concerned with DRM, bloat and general money grabbing), it looks a damn sight more likely to boost Mac and Linux or whatever other alternatives may be on the horizon.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2007-01-30 02:19pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The only reason we even care is because Windows is used in 90% and more of PCs worldwide. The minute MS loses that guaranteed monopoly (and looking at the number of people concerned with DRM, bloat and general money grabbing), it looks a damn sight more likely to boost Mac and Linux or whatever other alternatives may be on the horizon.

I doubt that. Joe Blow isn't going pay Mac prices, is too stupid to understand Linux, and already uses Windows, so he's not going to switch [Edit: At least as far as the US is concerned - EU laws and 3rd World economics might lead to different results]. And as far as DRM goes, any system that wants to play HD content is going to have to deal with it, thanks to Hollywood.

As for me, it looks like I'm getting Vista Ultimate for free. My company doesn't have any plans to switch to Vista anytime soon (SP1 release at the absolute earliest), and we've got more keys than developers anyway, so one of those keys will be mine!

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-01-30 03:03pm

What would Microsoft even be able to offer that would make a new version of Windows a 'killer app' in it's own right? (Besides making some other highly desirable software Vista-only, that is.)

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-01-30 03:11pm

Uraniun235 wrote:What would Microsoft even be able to offer that would make a new version of Windows a 'killer app' in it's own right? (Besides making some other highly desirable software Vista-only, that is.)

I think that's basically the plan.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2007-01-30 03:18pm

Spyder wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:What would Microsoft even be able to offer that would make a new version of Windows a 'killer app' in it's own right? (Besides making some other highly desirable software Vista-only, that is.)
I think that's basically the plan.

MS has already conceded that most Vista sales will be with new PCs. In fact, one of my coworkers priced out a Dell laptop today, and Vista was the only OS option. The "killer app" is replacing old computers.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-01-30 03:27pm

Arrow wrote:
I doubt that. Joe Blow isn't going pay Mac prices, is too stupid to understand Linux, and already uses Windows, so he's not going to switch [Edit: At least as far as the US is concerned - EU laws and 3rd World economics might lead to different results]. And as far as DRM goes, any system that wants to play HD content is going to have to deal with it, thanks to Hollywood.

As for me, it looks like I'm getting Vista Ultimate for free. My company doesn't have any plans to switch to Vista anytime soon (SP1 release at the absolute earliest), and we've got more keys than developers anyway, so one of those keys will be mine!

That assumes the status quo remains. Apple could actually, in a moment of insanity, sell their stuff at less than daylight robbery prices, thus maybe making a loss, but gaining a massive inroads into the market. The increasing prevalence of Linux distros that anybody can use is also a big enough threat for MS to actually address it.

I think the bigger doubt here is over MS keeping the monopoly they've enjoyed for well over a decade. A lot of people know there are alternatives now, and Apple are a big brand name with some real power (albeit, only after some product ironically nothing to do with computers came in: the iPod). The DRM battle is also key, and it seems people are getting sick of it as is.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2007-01-30 03:33pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: I think the bigger doubt here is over MS keeping the monopoly they've enjoyed for well over a decade. A lot of people know there are alternatives now, and Apple are a big brand name with some real power (albeit, only after some product ironically nothing to do with computers came in: the iPod). The DRM battle is also key, and it seems people are getting sick of it as is.

Whats apples take on DRM? My understanding uis that if they want MacOS to play new HDDVD's, they're going to have to go the same way as MS.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-01-30 03:37pm

Sharp-kun wrote: Whats apples take on DRM? My understanding uis that if they want MacOS to play new HDDVD's, they're going to have to go the same way as MS.

I recall reading an article on them being the make or break for DRM, if they choose to go ahead and implement it in their next OS. I'm hoping they've seen what MS have done and others, and are going to have a sudden change of heart.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2007-01-30 03:40pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:I'm hoping they've seen what MS have done and others, and are going to have a sudden change of heart.

Then what? Macs can't play new media? I don't see the MPAA backing down simply for Apple if MS have implemented it. Apple simply don't have a big enough market share. Also it kind of kills the appeal a bit if new media will play on Windows but not on Macs.

Unfortunately I don't see DRM going away.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-01-30 03:56pm

Then the media industry is going to have more piracy than ever before. They either hæmorrhage and die slow, or they adapt, throwaway DRM and eat humble pie.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2007-01-30 03:59pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:That assumes the status quo remains. Apple could actually, in a moment of insanity, sell their stuff at less than daylight robbery prices, thus maybe making a loss, but gaining a massive inroads into the market.

Not going to happen, as long as Steve Jobs is boss.

The increasing prevalence of Linux distros that anybody can use is also a big enough threat for MS to actually address it.

And until there is universal compatibility between Linux distros, only those that hate MS AND know what they're doing are going to use Linux (the ones that don't know what they're doing will buy a Mac). I don't see this happening anytime soon, since there seems to be some pissing match always going on in Linux community.

The average consumer and businesses, which make up the vast majority of the market, don't want to have to worry about if their software will run with such-and-such distro on hardware X, Y and Z.

I think the bigger doubt here is over MS keeping the monopoly they've enjoyed for well over a decade. A lot of people know there are alternatives now, and Apple are a big brand name with some real power (albeit, only after some product ironically nothing to do with computers came in: the iPod). The DRM battle is also key, and it seems people are getting sick of it as is.

The fact that more people know the alternatives doesn't mean they're going to switch, especially if the alternatives have cost more money or more effort. As for DRM, if Apple wants their TV STB to be successfully, they're going to have to bend over for the studios and the networks, just like MS did.

Only two things can kill DRM. Either the MPAA and RIAA have to have complete change of heart, or the first world nations will have to legislate it out of existence. I can't see either happening anytime soon.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2007-01-30 04:28pm

Oomph... just to check, if my hard drive needs to start from scratch, is Media Center like XP Home/Pro in needing to install/activate those before I can use the Vista Home Premium upgrade disc...? (Whether or not for the first time.)

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » 2007-01-30 04:38pm

Edward Yee wrote:Oomph... just to check, if my hard drive needs to start from scratch, is Media Center like XP Home/Pro in needing to install/activate those before I can use the Vista Home Premium upgrade disc...? (Whether or not for the first time.)

Yes

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-01-30 04:54pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Then the media industry is going to have more piracy than ever before. They either hæmorrhage and die slow, or they adapt, throwaway DRM and eat humble pie.

Or (3) the status quo remains.

Uraniun235 wrote:What would Microsoft even be able to offer that would make a new version of Windows a 'killer app' in it's own right? (Besides making some other highly desirable software Vista-only, that is.)

Well, it depends. Windows 2000 and Windows Server 2003 in and of themselves were "kill apps" when they were released, but both were significant leaps over their predecessors.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2007-01-30 05:04pm

Edward Yee wrote:Oomph... just to check, if my hard drive needs to start from scratch, is Media Center like XP Home/Pro in needing to install/activate those before I can use the Vista Home Premium upgrade disc...? (Whether or not for the first time.)

Media Center is only presently available on newly purchased PCs and OEM discs, afaik.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2007-01-30 05:23pm

*Sigh* Better make those recovery things tonight... (Instead of getting recovery discs with my laptop, my "120GB HD" actually has 11.7 GB [1.36 GB free] in a separate partition for the recovery data, with a program for making the discs.)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-01-30 05:35pm

phongn wrote: Or (3) the status quo remains.

I highly doubt that. The way things are going, we're nowhere near DRM saturation that we're being led into and already many are up-in-arms. That it got mentioned on the BBC News forum is shocking in itself, given most assume DRM is just something the public doesn't know of and will blindly accept.

I see music sales in free fall because of DRM and HD media also suffering. If Vista is adopted and then found to have naff DRM, then that's pretty damning.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-01-30 05:36pm

Arrow wrote:
The increasing prevalence of Linux distros that anybody can use is also a big enough threat for MS to actually address it.
And until there is universal compatibility between Linux distros, only those that hate MS AND know what they're doing are going to use Linux (the ones that don't know what they're doing will buy a Mac). I don't see this happening anytime soon, since there seems to be some pissing match always going on in Linux community.

The average consumer and businesses, which make up the vast majority of the market, don't want to have to worry about if their software will run with such-and-such distro on hardware X, Y and Z.

MS are already addressing Linux as a potential threat, go to any of the major Linux news sites have had microsoft ads and links to Server 2003 performance studies plastered all over them for quite some time now.

I don't think all Linux users hate MS, I first started with it simply because I was curious and wanted to try something different. It's actually been quite interesting watching it develop over the years.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2007-01-30 05:41pm

General Zod wrote:
Edward Yee wrote:Oomph... just to check, if my hard drive needs to start from scratch, is Media Center like XP Home/Pro in needing to install/activate those before I can use the Vista Home Premium upgrade disc...? (Whether or not for the first time.)
Media Center is only presently available on newly purchased PCs and OEM discs, afaik.

That'd be from the laptop I have (and would use Vista Home Premium on, if I do).

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-01-31 12:04am

phongn wrote:Well, it depends. Windows 2000 and Windows Server 2003 in and of themselves were "kill apps" when they were released, but both were significant leaps over their predecessors.

Those were significant leaps in terms of the business environment. There were a lot of features introduced in Win2K that were pretty neat for IT but which most home consumers would never care about. (although as a home user 2K was pretty cool for the whole "not so inherently unstable as Windows 98" thing)

I have to admit that I'd make a really lousy OS developer myself, because I sit here looking at my screen and I think "durr, where does one go from here?" There's always the thought of hiring some dude off the street to come in and try things out and keep a log of "things I don't like" and "things I wish I could do" but that always runs the risk of accidentally developing the Homer Simpson car.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2007-01-31 03:53am

DailyTech just posted a follow-up to this story... it seems that not only can you in fact do a clean install of Vista with the upgrade discs, Microsoft have inadvertently made it possible to install the Vista upgrade without having a previous version of Windows!

Link

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2007-01-31 04:58am

Arrow wrote:I doubt that. Joe Blow isn't going pay Mac prices, is too stupid to understand Linux, and already uses Windows, so he's not going to switch [Edit: At least as far as the US is concerned - EU laws and 3rd World economics might lead to different results].

Actually, Linux does a little better in those situations, however (3rd world) Windows is dominant quite simply because pirating it hasn't even got the theoretical repercussions that pirating it in the US has. Vista Ultimate for all, yay! Stuff like Starter edition exist only so that MS manages to get at least some money out of it, even they do not believe that people use that.

And Apple is essentially a non-entity outside the US, except for a few niches. Not surprising considering that their already insane prices tend to jump to even more absurd levels. A basic Macbook Pro here costs 3000$, a 50% markup over US prices.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-01-31 10:54am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I highly doubt that. The way things are going, we're nowhere near DRM saturation that we're being led into and already many are up-in-arms. That it got mentioned on the BBC News forum is shocking in itself, given most assume DRM is just something the public doesn't know of and will blindly accept.

It depends. If it is relatively transparent and not draconian (see: iTunes music) the public will accept it.

I see music sales in free fall because of DRM and HD media also suffering. If Vista is adopted and then found to have naff DRM, then that's pretty damning.

Why would the public in general care? They didn't care about CSS in DVDs, they won't care about ACS in HD-DVD/BD-ROM. If the HD formats fail I doubt it'll be because of DRM.

Frankly, Valdemar, you're thinking too much like a computer geek and projecting your views (or wants) onto Joe Public. I think the public will just go along so long as DRM is not draconian and just live with it.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2007-01-31 11:09am

DaveJB wrote:DailyTech just posted a follow-up to this story... it seems that not only can you in fact do a clean install of Vista with the upgrade discs, Microsoft have inadvertently made it possible to install the Vista upgrade without having a previous version of Windows!

Link

Can the upgrade version of vista be transferred like retail, or is it hardware bound like OEM? If the former I can't really see much reason for people (like me

) to go out and buy OEM copies... Upgrade versions can still do repair installs, right?

Post by **Beowulf** » 2007-01-31 12:37pm

InnocentBystander wrote:
DaveJB wrote:DailyTech just posted a follow-up to this story... it seems that not only can you in fact do a clean install of Vista with the upgrade discs, Microsoft have inadvertently made it possible to install the Vista upgrade without having a previous version of Windows!

Link
Can the upgrade version of vista be transferred like retail, or is it hardware bound like OEM? If the former I can't really see much reason for people (like me ) to go out and buy OEM copies... Upgrade versions can still do repair installs, right?

Upgrade versions are retail.