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lance
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Post by lance »

LadyTevar wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:But as for decks, never dismiss the Kitsunes from Kamigawa, white, protection from everything! Gain life X life every turn, and tap to gain X life again!
See? This is what I was ranting about!
Yeah all these new fangled combos that are like so unbalancing, like channel+fireball or Underworld dreams and memory jar, or necropotence+ivory tower or replenish+opalescence. Or even shard phoenix and forbid.
AidanMcfay wrote:Yup, They reprinted White Knite into Red. Blood Knight 2 for a 2/2 Pro White Creature. Love him in my Mono Red Curb Stomp deck. They reprinted Giant Growth into red as well....Brute Force.
Actually that was a shifted black knight.
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Post by AidanMcfay »

Honestly, I think spells have gotten weaker, and creatures have gotten more powerful. Calciderm + Dust Elemental = Pwnage for a white Agro deck.

Hmm I didn't realize that about Blood Knight....
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brianeyci
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Post by brianeyci »

I asked my brother today. His price tag with keeping up with Standard Type II gameplay, 300 bucks every six months just for one competitive deck. Then the cards are out and another three hundred bucks. And so on.

I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing though, because if Magic were my hobby I'd welcome new cards every six months.

So it appears there's two ways to play it. Booster draft at your local card store on Friday nights for 10 bucks a week, or three hundred bucks and a ton of research online along with buying a lot of singles nets you a competitive deck. The half-assed way of playing, buying boosters and slowly building up your collection went the way of the dodo with the advent of the Internet. Either use a limited format (booster draft or sealed) or be prepared to spend hundreds of dollars and tons of time.

So if you're on a limited budget, buy a box of cards, and do booster draft with friends out of those cards. Once the cards are out you can have a pool of cards and use them over and over with randomized "boosters" of 15, if people are looking for a hobby that won't die. It'll be based on skill not who has the most money and time, and eventually the cards would get familiar.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

stopped playing when I lost all my cards in the flood of 97

yes, at the time of the flood in yosemite park, my collection included 1 mox, and several workshops....
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Post by Sam Or I »

LadyTevar wrote:
AidanMcfay wrote:Ive never played any vintage magic, ive been playing since kamigawa. It was my fav set. I mix and match alot of stuff together... anything from Odessey on up really.
Oh you child! :shock:
Yes, I play Magic. I have been playing since Revised/TheDark (If you're wondering, that's 1994. I think.) I've played in the first Arena touneys, still have the card with the little stickers on back for Tempest 97, Winter 97, Spring 97, Harvest 97, Autumn 97, Tempest 98. I re-joined the Arena a couple years back, and the young man was shocked to see the player ID number I had.

My main decks are in one of the original "Color" boxes... I have the one for Green and the one for Artifact. My life counter is a 1998 Reaper Miniture-produced "Talisman ProCounter"; green enamel over lead pewter, with the dragon that I myself spent a couple days painting green and dry-brushing for the 'perfect' look. I'm amazed the gloss-finished paint's still hanging in there, honestly.

My decks are a mix of whatever cards I can get my hands on. I have near-complete sets of Revised thru 6th Ed, plus Chronicles, Fallen Empires, IceAge (not the new one, dammit), Mirage/Visions, Weatherlight, Urza's Saga, and the last one I bought was the first Kamagawa.

I'm old, ok? I've looked over the newer cards and shook my head at how frakkin UnBalanced they are, compared to the first 5 editions. I remember when a frakkin Scryp Sprite (1G, Flying) was something to fear, because it was a second-turn flyer that could plink you to death if you didn't get up a blocker, or when *Everyone* played 'Tim' the Prodigal Sorcerer if they could.

How old am I? I still have a Land-Destruction deck with a Demonic Horde. I have a Merman deck. I have my "80% Deck", blue/white birds that wins 8 games of 10. I have my Mirage/Visions "Ka-Niggit" deck, which screws with people's minds because of the 'ancient' Flanking rules. I gave Nitram my Goblin Deck... with a Goblin King, fer Christsake. (He beats me with it often)

So, do I play Magic?
No. There's no one that I've wanted to play with, because they've all got the Newest and Greatest that's nerfed all my 'ancient' combos.
I gave up around the First Ice age, got to expensive for my teenage-self. I feel your pain. Damn, us old one.
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Post by TheFeniX »

I started just before Ice Age came out and quit right after alliance. It just kind of got old. I was around 16 at the time and had access to a car, so I just kind of grew out of it.

I hope to get around to putting all my old cards on Ebay. At this point, I really would just prefer to get rid of them (but I'm not about to give them away).
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Post by lance »

AidanMcfay wrote:Honestly, I think spells have gotten weaker, and creatures have gotten more powerful. Calciderm + Dust Elemental = Pwnage for a white Agro deck.
Actually its more like large creatures have gotten better, and pinging but nobody uses pingers competitively , the weenies have stayed about the same. White Knight~honor guard~ that flanking thing.
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Post by AidanMcfay »

lance wrote:
AidanMcfay wrote:Honestly, I think spells have gotten weaker, and creatures have gotten more powerful. Calciderm + Dust Elemental = Pwnage for a white Agro deck.
Actually its more like large creatures have gotten better, and pinging but nobody uses pingers competitively , the weenies have stayed about the same. White Knight~honor guard~ that flanking thing.
Ill agree with that. White agro isnt Weenies anymore tho. Calciderm is a 5/5 monster that costs 2 colorless and 2 white. Sure it has Vanishing 4, but it also cant be the target of spells and abilities.

and Dust Elemental is the same mana cost, but its a 6/6 flying, fear beast with flash(Can be played as an instant aka interupt for some of the old timers) but you have to return creatures to your hand... and thats why you have Calciderms :-p. Cause you want them back...
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Post by rhoenix »

I played for a while when I was in high school, and quit around the time the Ice Age set came out. I started again two years ago on a random boredom spree, playing against two friends.

I played a red/blue cannon/cancellation/creature deck. They stopped playing.

My cards just gather dust again, now. I'll sell them at some point.
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Post by brianeyci »

I grilled my brother some more about Magic compared to a few years ago (4th edition). Since the Invasion block, they've considered card balance carefully. Broken cards eh. Remember this shit.

Image

Forget it, gone unless you play an older format.

Oh yeah, and Counterspell? Forget it, this is the latest,

Image

So a few years back for you old timers, Magic was garbage. It's not that the cards are more or less powerful, it's that every card's unique and more balanced (2 to cast hard counter, that was always too cheap) and there's no bullshit like mass removal artifacts. Don't even get me started with the creature removal. Now rather than a few extremely powerful kinds of decks, there's twenty or so that go into tournaments. Of course there's several more powerful than others, but there's actually a chance that the less powerful decks can upset the more powerful decks, by virtue of speed.

Part of the "problem" is the Internet. Now every snot can go online and download a competitive deck, blow a ton of money. Powerful decks have always existed, but before you had to invent them yourself or read magazines, while now every middle schooler can pretend he knows something and copy a deck list and buy singles. But that's not really a problem. Either do the research yourself, or play Limited (constructed or booster draft, means exactly what it says a limited pool of cards.)

I can't play Friday Night Magic this Friday, being my mom's birthday, so I'll have to wait 'til next week. But I'm going to do it, and if it's as bad as some of you say it is I won't be able to play at all. But I'm sure if I jump right in and tear open a pack, I could start drafting right away. Of course standard is fast, it's always been fast, and they'll always be people with incredible combos playing standard. The fun's in Limited, and now that cards are unique it's a ton more fun.
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Post by The Jester »

CCG's are nice in they are very easy to pick up and play. They're relatively quick and easy to learn in spite of the fact that their official rulebooks are often exceedingly long and complicated documents; most games play in a rather straight-forward manner.

I used to enjoy playing competitive constructed Magic up until the release of Darksteel. I always built my own creations though I usually looked at netdecks for inspiration or a basis to begin with though I worked to improve and optimise the decks that I did play. I never achieved anything special competitively aside from being considered a decent player amongst the people with whom I played. Deckbuilding and playtesting amongst friends was always entertaining and easily something I could spend hours on.

I always had a soft spot for black and especially cards like Reanimate (cheap fatties are awesome), Necropotence (the modern, more balanced equivalents like Graveborn Muse and Phyrexian Arena were still awesome), "suicide" creatures (I loved Phyrexian Negator) and discard.

Unfortunately, since the game is constantly changing it requires a constant investment of money in order to keep constructed decks competitive. Since Wizards limits the availability of strong constructed cards through rarity and randomisation, these costs can be quite high. I quit mostly because I don't see the cards being worth what I was constantly investing into playing. I do have a fondness for the game, but I don't like the sales model at all.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

although currently I have some SPANC, and other complete set card games from steve jackson.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

heh, I just remember when someone popped a singer vamp, I had piddly little scybe sprites, with webbing, and regen, the vamp discovered I had two giant growths on my little sprytes....
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Post by The Jester »

Destructionator XIII wrote: Then they are idiots, since they failed miserably.
The development team generally try to balance cards with two players in mind. Looking at the cards that you have a problem with, I'm guessing you often played with more than one other opponent, which is not something I can particularly comment on since I always played with a single opponent. I can however say that none of the cards you listed was ever used in a competitive tournament deck. Skullclamp on the other hand...
And that is just the top of the list. They made artifacts and creatures wanked out beyond belief while nixing your ability to get rid of them, as your counterspell example shows.
Not sure which creatures you're talking about exactly since a Wrath of God tended to destroy most things. There certainly hasn't been a lack of cards which kill or otherwise remove creatures. Though artifacts have fewer answers, their affects have been relatively tame (ignoring Affinity cards) aside from Skullclamp and and possibly Umezawa's Jitte.
This isn't that bad. The opponent has a full turn to get rid of it if he wants (which is very easy to do), and when it does go off, it hurts you just as much as it hurts him.
Actually, these global affects tended to be far more devastating for opponents since the player who controls the disk can easily play with its effect in mind and design their deck to minimise the harm caused to himself. For what it does, the disk is very effective due to its low cost.
Contrast that to gaining 5 + nx life per turn where n is the number of turns since you put out the goblet and x is the number of energy chambers under your control, while none of them can be destroyed. Or the artifacts that make all your artifacts unkillable.
Considering that Darksteel Reactor costs nine (!!!) mana to play, I seriously wouldn't concern myself too much with it. The goblet itself costs five mana (you can easily find creatures which cause similar damage for the same cost). None of these cards do a whole lot if you opponent is busy killing aside from perhaps delaying your death a little.
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Post by brianeyci »

First of all I would like to say I haven't played Magic seriously in years. I am debating because I don't see where the vitrol is coming from, since I've played one or two booster drafts before and read my brother's cards occasionally. Perhaps I'm wrong completely... I can't do Friday night magic this Friday, but I will definitely come back later and tell you if I got my ten bucks worth.
Destructionator XIII wrote:Then they are idiots, since they failed miserably.

And that is just the top of the list. They made artifacts and creatures wanked out beyond belief while nixing your ability to get rid of them, as your counterspell example shows.
I see nothing wanked out about those cards, because when those cards were in standard everybody had them. It was an artifact themed expansion, of course artifacts would be powerful. Now, it is out of standard. As mentioned already, the power nine are the most powerful and expensive cards in magic worth hundreds of dollars and will continue to be so. Standard play is Ravnica block, Time Spiral, Coldsnap and Ninth Edition. You compare your vintage format cards with other... vintage format cards. Either the power nine are in or they are out. Of course they are going to seem less or more powerful than your own cards, that's what happens over time, you release new cards that happens.

The alternative is not releasing cards with new abilities and new themes, in other words a static game. When you release thousands of cards some are going to be weaker than others and the only alternative is errata rules.
This isn't that bad. The opponent has a full turn to get rid of it if he wants (which is very easy to do), and when it does go off, it hurts you just as much as it hurts him.
Every single worthy deck had the disk in it when it was in. It's 4 colorless, unlinked. Forcing players to play a certain way is primitive. Counterspell was more powerful.
Contrast that to gaining 5 + nx life per turn where n is the number of turns since you put out the goblet and x is the number of energy chambers under your control, while none of them can be destroyed. Or the artifacts that make all your artifacts unkillable.

Yeah, balance. That is almost a big combo, but even any one or two of those cards is brutal. All three is just wank.
Combos have always existed. Do you have any idea how much mana 9 is. Or how many turns 20 is. Or that casting 3 to put out an artifact that shits out 1 mana a turn slows down your mana curve considerably for a short while for an almost meaningless gain. But the main point was: it was an artifact themed expansion (maybe block?) Of course artifacts are going to be wanked. In another creatures will be, in another something else. I see nothing wrong with that. Meanwhile vintage, the eternal format, still has the most powerful cards in magic and always will so the idea that magic has become unbalanced is silly. Creatures are faster and more powerful, so you just need to kill them faster.
Part of the "problem" is the Internet. Now every snot can go online and download a competitive deck, blow a ton of money.
I agree with that. I say half the game takes place before you draw, in the deck building time. No one seems to do that themselves anymore.
There's nothing to do with that but either get in the game yourself, or booster draft. More information exchange makes the game better, not less. There may be people who copy decks out there, but that just means the community's more robust and you know what decks to beat if you come up with your own :D.
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Post by Exonerate »

There's a reason people play different formats. In T2, all the old cards that might be considered broken are phased out (With few exceptions, such as Skullclamp), and in T1, each new block usually contributes only a few viable cards for Tourny play.

I used to play a little, but I haven't really touched it at all for months. Part of the problem is that I don't really know people at my school who play, and I'd rather not shell out money to buy cards. One of my friends is the city champ and will probably going to the nationals though.

BoTM, MM, HAB, JL
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Post by lPeregrine »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Since the Invasion block, they've considered card balance carefully.
Then they are idiots, since they failed miserably.

*list of cards*
.
I'd hardly call that a failure... all of those cards suck, and would never see play in a tournament-level deck. Forget about vintage, those didn't even see play in their era of standard. And that combo isn't even remotely overpowered, there's a dozen infinite damage/life/etc combos that will kill you on the fourth turn or earlier, with much lower mana costs. I've got an Ornithopter/Enduring Renewal/Goblin Bombardment deck that can reliably kill you on the fourth turn (or sometimes earlier), dealing infinite damage no matter how strong your board position is. I think my arbitrary fourth turn "I win" button beats your slow 20-turn "combo". And it isn't even considered good enough for serious tournaments!

But you're right on the Disk, it's slow, fragile mass removal... Wrath, Armageddon, etc, all are at least as powerful and none of them are broken. I mean, it was even reprinted as a creature in one of the latest sets!

But really, anyone whining about modern card balance needs to take a look at the good old days. If anything, modern card balance has gone far to the side of being underpowered and removed a lot of the things I considered fun.

*longs for the good old days when Counterspell was pathetic and weak at UU, and real men played Mana Drain*
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Post by LadyTevar »

Yes... I remember when every deck has Nevinyarrl's Disk, Sol Ring, and the all powerful Feldon's Cane in it.

I remember when a Green/White deck could be nothing but Rapid Wambats and various white Enchantments.

I remember when Red/Green ws the way to go, because of Kird Ape and Lightning
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

LadyTevar wrote:Yes... I remember when every deck has Nevinyarrl's Disk, Sol Ring, and the all powerful Feldon's Cane in it.

I remember when a Green/White deck could be nothing but Rapid Wambats and various white Enchantments.

I remember when Red/Green ws the way to go, because of Kird Ape and Lightning
not to mention my favorite lanowar/sisters/growth 4springs,4fireballs, 4 disintergrets, 4hurricanes.
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Post by AidanMcfay »

Nevinyarrl's Disk... can be played as soon as it comes out. They do not have a full turn to destroy it, and since its an ability on the card, its controller can just set it off when he wants in RESPONSE to someone destroying it even.

The new decks might have some janky combos, but its not as bad as say... Black Lotus + feldons cane...and I cant remember the other card's first turn win.

On a side not, I hate NetDecking...takes the fun away from playing. I play rogue decks, and thats it.

You point out Darksteel forge and a number of things...that well have been cycled out for atleast 5 years. The new sets that are type 2 viable are Ravnica and Time Spiral Block.
Then they are idiots, since they failed miserably.
Not so. Besides, just cause you have a Darksteel forge in play doesnt mean it cant be BOUNCED back to your hand by someone or removed from game. Indestructable is nothing if your a good player. Or someone who comes prepared.
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Post by lance »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Since the Invasion block, they've considered card balance carefully.
Then they are idiots, since they failed miserably.

snip crap cards
If your going to list crap thats overpowered I would suggest Skull clamps, cranial platings, aether vials, commender, Jiite. storm mechanic, affinity lava dart, that scry burn card. And even that stuff pales compared to Urza's block.
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Post by lPeregrine »

AidanMcfay wrote:Nevinyarrl's Disk... can be played as soon as it comes out. They do not have a full turn to destroy it, and since its an ability on the card, its controller can just set it off when he wants in RESPONSE to someone destroying it even.
No it can't. The Disk comes into play tapped, and you have to tap it to activate it. So unless you have a second card for an untap effect, they'll have at least one turn to destroy it before you can blow up the world.
The new decks might have some janky combos, but its not as bad as say... Black Lotus + feldons cane...and I cant remember the other card's first turn win.
Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball? Or really, Black Lotus + Anything was bad enough, with that kind of mana acceleration it's way too easy to pull off first turn kills with pretty much any combo.
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Post by LadyTevar »

lance wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Since the Invasion block, they've considered card balance carefully.
Then they are idiots, since they failed miserably.

snip crap cards
If your going to list crap thats overpowered I would suggest Skull clamps, cranial platings, aether vials, commender, Jiite. storm mechanic, affinity lava dart, that scry burn card. And even that stuff pales compared to Urza's block.
The sad part? I dont know these. They're too new.
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Post by LadyTevar »

lPeregrine wrote:
AidanMcfay wrote:Nevinyarrl's Disk... can be played as soon as it comes out. They do not have a full turn to destroy it, and since its an ability on the card, its controller can just set it off when he wants in RESPONSE to someone destroying it even.
No it can't. The Disk comes into play tapped, and you have to tap it to activate it. So unless you have a second card for an untap effect, they'll have at least one turn to destroy it before you can blow up the world.
The new decks might have some janky combos, but its not as bad as say... Black Lotus + feldons cane...and I cant remember the other card's first turn win.
Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball? Or really, Black Lotus + Anything was bad enough, with that kind of mana acceleration it's way too easy to pull off first turn kills with pretty much any combo.
Better, but it takes longer. Channel+Inititates of the EbonHand+DrainLife.

Channel away your life into mana. EbonHand makes it Black Mana. Drain Life on Opponent. End turn, you still have LifePoints.
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Post by lPeregrine »

LadyTevar wrote:
lPeregrine wrote:
AidanMcfay wrote:Nevinyarrl's Disk... can be played as soon as it comes out. They do not have a full turn to destroy it, and since its an ability on the card, its controller can just set it off when he wants in RESPONSE to someone destroying it even.
No it can't. The Disk comes into play tapped, and you have to tap it to activate it. So unless you have a second card for an untap effect, they'll have at least one turn to destroy it before you can blow up the world.
The new decks might have some janky combos, but its not as bad as say... Black Lotus + feldons cane...and I cant remember the other card's first turn win.
Black Lotus + Channel + Fireball? Or really, Black Lotus + Anything was bad enough, with that kind of mana acceleration it's way too easy to pull off first turn kills with pretty much any combo.
Better, but it takes longer. Channel+Inititates of the EbonHand+DrainLife.

Channel away your life into mana. EbonHand makes it Black Mana. Drain Life on Opponent. End turn, you still have LifePoints.
Well, the broken thing with Channel was you just instantly killed the opponent. If your life + your mana > opponent's life, move on to game 2. Same with Hatred... get a creature through unblocked, and it's Channel + Fireball in one card (and the rest of the deck is fast enough to win easily even without it). But for three-card combos, I'd rather just go infinite. Infinite damage, infinite card draw, infinite milling, you name it, there's a three-card infinite combo to do it.
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