Mass Effect's Renegade/Paragon system

[Stark]

I don't think the Paragon/Renegade system was ever supposed to be a "revolutionary moral system" outside of the most breathless hype. It's actually just the standard videogame karma meter, but instead of being good or (playground) evil it's whether you're a nice person whilst you're saving the galaxy or a cunt about it, or somewhere in the middle. (Since the karma bars are seperate, you don't "lose" Renegade points for taking a Paragon option once in a while, it's even possible to get both types of points for the same quest).

By 'hype' you mean 'statements of developers', right? It's not MY fault when someone says a feature will be kickin' rad and it turns out to be substantially the same as the shit they've already done, particularly in the poor quality of the writing/forced 'choices'. From what I've played, I actually consider the 'moral choices' superior in KoTOR 2, as there was much more direct reference to previous choices (something almost totally lacking in ME outside the hilariously worthless Council debriefings).

If Bioware didn't spend months telling everyone how awesome the system was and how it was an amazing step forward from the KotoR system, nobody would care. Sadly, they did, and like Peter Molyneux they need to learn to just shut the fuck up.

[Isil`Zha]

meh, I figured that the Paragon/Renegade feature was just a way to let your character respond more how you wanted it.

Also, those "magic" options didn't always work. In some cases, the "magic" paragon dialog option actually gets you renegade points.

[Ohma]

How is the Rachni Queen going to have much impact in the timeframe of the game?

I wouldn't expect the queen itself to have much of an impact, but I would expect you to get more than a stern lecture for releasing it. (and really, the fact that aside from a few words, the differences between the "I just killed a potential threat to the galaxy" quest resolution, and the "I just let a potential threat to the galaxy loose" resolution are nearly identical is ridiculous when supposedly "The role you choose to play in Mass Effect will have tremendous consequences on the galaxy around you. You will face moral dilemmas in which the decision you ultimately make will significantly alter the fate of civilized life in the galaxy.")

I've noticed this a lot - the assumption that everyone knows what you're like. Errr - how? Some people in the game don't even know you're a fucking Spectre (the guy on Feros, for example) until you tell them, what makes anyone think that everyone who fronts up to you knows every single thing you've ever done? That's retarded. You're not a pro-wrestler.

I'm not talking about random joe crim. or jane police officer, I'm talking about the people who seriously come up to you and say "Oh hey! I've heard a lot about you Specter Sheppard. I'm a crime lord/asari diplomat and need you to yadda yadda." when you've either been a massive tool or dickhead (whichever they don't want).

[Stark]

Also, those "magic" options didn't always work. In some cases, the "magic" paragon dialog option actually gets you renegade points.

Sorry, when the glowy blue option makes terrorists give up and people destroy their whole race and shit like that, it's not 'choose the best option to navigate this complex negotiation', it's I USE MY PARAGON-6 TO WIN THE CONVO.

It's hilarious that anyone would claim people don't know who you are, when you're AMBUSHED BY JOURNALISTS and have that junkie/govt worker guy accost you BY NAME on purpose. Average idiots on planets UNDER SIEGE BY PLANT ZOMBIES might not know who you are, but the press and military sure as fuck do. Even your old GANG BANGER MATES know, for fuck's sake.

All the more reason why not being able to just blast your way through the Noveria corporate enclave is retarded. Rules? Fuck your rules, I'm saving the universe! Oh no, that'd break scripted encounters... quick, railroad the player!

[Vympel]

It's hilarious that anyone would claim people don't know who you are, when you're AMBUSHED BY JOURNALISTS and have that junkie/govt worker guy accost you BY NAME on purpose. Average idiots on planets UNDER SIEGE BY PLANT ZOMBIES might not know who you are, but the press and military sure as fuck do. Even your old GANG BANGER MATES know, for fuck's sake.

Missing the point:-

I've noticed this a lot - the assumption that everyone knows what you're like. Errr - how? Some people in the game don't even know you're a fucking Spectre (the guy on Feros, for example) until you tell them, what makes anyone think that everyone who fronts up to you knows every single thing you've ever done? That's retarded. You're not a pro-wrestler.

Just because you're recognized (on the Citadel, and the Citadel alone) as the first human Spectre does not mean that everyone knows every thing you've done in the whole game, which is the main retarded assumption. In fact, the only people to know what you do on each planet are your ship's crew, the Alliance military, the Citadel council, and whoever you interact with on the respective planets. That's it.

I wouldn't expect the queen itself to have much of an impact, but I would expect you to get more than a stern lecture for releasing it. (and really, the fact that aside from a few words, the differences between the "I just killed a potential threat to the galaxy" quest resolution, and the "I just let a potential threat to the galaxy loose" resolution are nearly identical is ridiculous when supposedly "The role you choose to play in Mass Effect will have tremendous consequences on the galaxy around you. You will face moral dilemmas in which the decision you ultimately make will significantly alter the fate of civilized life in the galaxy.")

You do know that it's the first game in a trilogy, right, and your character and his decisions are going to be carried over into the sequels? I'll hold Bioware to that, but as it is, the Rachni Queen being loosed and saying that she'd remake the Rachni race (kinder, gentler, yadda yadda) should have no reasonable bearing on the immediate timeframe of the game at all apart from what happens.

I'm not talking about random joe crim. or jane police officer, I'm talking about the people who seriously come up to you and say "Oh hey! I've heard a lot about you Specter Sheppard. I'm a crime lord/asari diplomat and need you to yadda yadda." when you've either been a massive tool or dickhead (whichever they don't want).

When does this happen? There's one crimelord who you encounter before you've even left the Citadel for the first time - what kind of rep would you have built up then, and how would they know about it? The asari diplomat is the exact same story.

The specific paragon/renegade quest option is from Adm Hackett, who is pretty much the only guy in a position to know what you're actually like most of the time, apart from the Council - hence his sending you to "negotiate" with the bandit lord, fully expecting you to simply kill him (i.e. the renegade quest).

[Stark]

Missing the point:-

I've noticed this a lot - the assumption that everyone knows what you're like. Errr - how? Some people in the game don't even know you're a fucking Spectre (the guy on Feros, for example) until you tell them, what makes anyone think that everyone who fronts up to you knows every single thing you've ever done? That's retarded. You're not a pro-wrestler.

Just because you're recognized (on the Citadel, and the Citadel alone) as the first human Spectre does not mean that everyone knows every thing you've done in the whole game, which is the main retarded assumption. In fact, the only people to know what you do on each planet are your ship's crew, the Alliance military, the Citadel council, and whoever you interact with on the respective planets. That's it.

Sure, not everyone's going to know - but you visit like 3 colonies in the whole damn game, one of which has been destroyed. My point would be that quests are locked/unlocked by your silly bars, which means people DO know , but the dialogue doesn't reflect this at all. If the game actually allowed you to do 'bad' things and then cover it up simply by killing everyone, that'd be great and fantastic, but it doesn't - people either do or don't know eveyrthing about you as required by the plot, and regardless of whether it makes their request more or less absurd. It's actually really funny when you do a renegade run and they tell you 'you're off the case', as if your record gives them reason to think you're going to listen to them. In a better game, they'd throw you in prison because you're OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO THEIR STUPID ORDERS BECAUSE YOU NEVER, EVER HAVE. I even love how Bishop is such a little bitch of an Admiral - no matter how many times you fuck him in the ass, he keeps giving you missions and asking you to help out with terrorists etc. It's quite a parody.

The Rachni queen is a good example - regardless of if you let it go, why the fuck would you even tell the Council about? Either way you're arguably better off not telling them, unless you kill it and expect a medal for saving the universe. Letting it go and telling the Council is stupid, and actually having to cover it up would have been cool. Instead it's basically irrelevant. In my first playthrough, by coincidence the next planets I went to were the 'zomg Rachni everywhere' planets, and I thought 'hey this is cool, consequences'. Of course that's actually a mission line that LEADS to Noveria, not the reverse, and your decision never actually affects anything besides giving you some red points to buff your magic 'Rude Orders' spell.

[Isil`Zha]

Also, those "magic" options didn't always work. In some cases, the "magic" paragon dialog option actually gets you renegade points.

Sorry, when the glowy blue option makes terrorists give up and people destroy their whole race and shit like that, it's not 'choose the best option to navigate this complex negotiation', it's I USE MY PARAGON-6 TO WIN THE CONVO.

First, good job completely ignoring what I actually said.

Second, I agree that it shouldn't be a "no-lose" option. (Like I said, it doesn't always work, but you never "lose" the goal via one of the "magic" options either.) It should help you achieve your goal. It should, as you say, do more than just "give a stern talking to." He should go further to "convince" the other person.

All that being said, it doesn't really detract much from the game for me/make it any less fun.

All the more reason why not being able to just blast your way through the Noveria corporate enclave is retarded. Rules? Fuck your rules, I'm saving the universe! Oh no, that'd break scripted encounters... quick, railroad the player!

I haven't tried to do that, but yeah, you should be able to blast your way through that if you wanted. Heck, there's a lot of places where you take the Paragon option and you end up having to blast your way through them.

[Stark]

First, good job completely ignoring what I actually said.

Also, those "magic" options didn't always work.

Yes, they do; if you have high enought Magic Charm Spell points - in either version, it doesn't matter - you will always positively resolve the situation. You can either be rude to the terrorists/Wrex or be calm with them - but they do what you want if it was a glowing option. I didn't even notice that situations required more or less of one or the other, ie that some situations were more easily resolvable with magical rudeness than magical calm. It's basically 'auto resolve', and no matter how stupid it might seem to the player to be being nice or rude in the given situation, selecting the blue/red option always means you 'win'.

[Peptuck]

What I always found amusing was that it takes less magic talky points to convince Saren to shoot himself or Wrex to back down than it takes to convince Jong he shouldn't point a gun as a heavily armed soldier who just waltzed through a geth base and has a fireteam of heavily armed havoc right behind him.

[Stark]

Oh man that was fucking awesome.

'You're being controlled!'

'No I'm not, you're stupid'

'Saren, you really are!'

*BLAM*

How fucking lame! It wasn't even a well-reasoned appeal or anything, it was just 'reiterate again and this time he kills himself'.

[Vendetta]

It's basically 'auto resolve', and no matter how stupid it might seem to the player to be being nice or rude in the given situation, selecting the blue/red option always means you 'win'.

This kind of stats based convo option is always "Auto resolve" though, (outside of D20 games, where it's "Roll a dice to see if your auto resolve wins")

Even in games like Planescape Torment, usually held up as the shining example of the trope, if you have a high enough Wisdom or Charisma a "Win" option will show up.

Really, it's hard to have meaningful stat effects on conversations without it turning into a win button for that conversation, unless the requirements for having that conversation option work are hidden from the player or there's a chance element even when you have the stats (and then people will just save and reload until they win anyway)

[Chardok]

One thing that annoyed me about ME was that oftentimes, the response chosen did not match the spoken dialogue.

It went something like this:

NPC: Hey! You've got aliens with you! What are you, some kind of alien lover?!

Response options:

1. You're pathetic (bad guy)
2. No. (neutral)
3. Where are you from? (the obligatory nonsensical inquiry)
4. We need to work together. (good guy)
5. Balls. (middle left option)

<select 1>

PC: Hey, I see you're wearing an outfit made by an Asari designer. Doesn't that make you an alien lover as well? *snarky grin*

[Vendetta]

The rationalisation behind that was that you're choosing the attitude of the reply, not the actual wording.

The real reason is that it cuts down on interface clutter not having to have the full dialogue on every one of the five possible responses.

[Chardok]

The rationalisation behind that was that you're choosing the attitude of the reply, not the actual wording.

The real reason is that it cuts down on interface clutter not having to have the full dialogue on every one of the five possible responses.

That's cool, but if I select you're pathetic, I want my goddamned guy to throw "you're pathetic" in the goddamned dialogue somewhere. But honestly, I picked the boyscout option more often than not on my first playthrough just because the other options we're idiotic. like

NPC: My wife and kids were all killed by <this or that> I'm all that's left of my church camping trip and I'm bleeding and poisoned! Please get me out of here!

responses:

1. Okay.
2. Don't be a wuss

<select 2>

Shepard: Okay, let's get some defenses set up. You there, bleeding and poisoned man, go dig me a latrine.

[Isil`Zha]

It's basically 'auto resolve', and no matter how stupid it might seem to the player to be being nice or rude in the given situation, selecting the blue/red option always means you 'win'.

This kind of stats based convo option is always "Auto resolve" though, (outside of D20 games, where it's "Roll a dice to see if your auto resolve wins")

Even in games like Planescape Torment, usually held up as the shining example of the trope, if you have a high enough Wisdom or Charisma a "Win" option will show up.

Really, it's hard to have meaningful stat effects on conversations without it turning into a win button for that conversation, unless the requirements for having that conversation option work are hidden from the player or there's a chance element even when you have the stats (and then people will just save and reload until they win anyway)

Like I was saying, instead of a single, no-lose option, it should help you, but not be mindless.

IE: Instead of one "magic" response, open up several new responses, that lead the dialog elsewhere with yet more options - half of them being ones you had to "unlock."

Then, that may end up being way too complicated for the design of the game. If you double the dialog paths that way, that adds a lot more writing and voice-over stuff that you need.

[Zixinus]

IE: Instead of one "magic" response, open up several new responses, that lead the dialog elsewhere with yet more options - half of them being ones you had to "unlock."

Or in another way, you could get a semi-minigame where you have to make an argument. Based on some kind of observational metre or something, you would have to present your arguments the right way so the other half is convinced.

This can be done both boyscout Jesus-wannabe style of Darth Wong style "you are wrong and stupid and I'll tell you why and once I'm done, you better think fast" style of berating.

Diplomacy would be appealing to the target's ego, their honour, emotions and finally rational thought.

And of course intimidation would be telling them that they are no position to make demands, how you will kick their ass, general berating them, etc.

[Isil`Zha]

IE: Instead of one "magic" response, open up several new responses, that lead the dialog elsewhere with yet more options - half of them being ones you had to "unlock."

Or in another way, you could get a semi-minigame where you have to make an argument. Based on some kind of observational metre or something, you would have to present your arguments the right way so the other half is convinced.

This can be done both boyscout Jesus-wannabe style of Darth Wong style "you are wrong and stupid and I'll tell you why and once I'm done, you better think fast" style of berating.

Diplomacy would be appealing to the target's ego, their honour, emotions and finally rational thought.

And of course intimidation would be telling them that they are no position to make demands, how you will kick their ass, general berating them, etc.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what I was going for.

[Shogoki]

I found a few events gave giant piles of 'renegade' points; like killing the queen tyranid and such. The general 'be rude' stuff is a very slow cooker for renegade points.

It's pretty weird, like, if you tell the pregnant woman to get the treatment for the hereditary disease that killed her husband you get a bunch of renegade points. I couldn't help going "WTF! I JUST TOLD THE BITCH TO TAKE TAKE THE DAMN MEDICINE!" Murder doesn't usually give you that many renegade points.

That and the either you love everything or you are xenophobic tendencies makes me think most of the script was written by one of those politically correct new age airheads.

[Vendetta]

It's pretty weird, like, if you tell the pregnant woman to get the treatment for the hereditary disease that killed her husband you get a bunch of renegade points. I couldn't help going "WTF! I JUST TOLD THE BITCH TO TAKE TAKE THE DAMN MEDICINE!" Murder doesn't usually give you that many renegade points.

If you scare her into it using Intimidate you get renegade points, if you Charm her into doing it you get paragon points. Same quest outcome, different approaches.

[Stark]

You raise a good point, Vendetta; in a game context with this kind of 'super charm' you're always going to be moving towards the 'magic option' from ME, but the combination in this game of having bright glowing options (so the player KNOWS they're using their silly magic) and really bad writing (so selecting it just makes Shepard say 'plz shot ur head kkk?') make it stand out more than it had to. A well-written or designed game could use the same concepts without being so hilariously jarring and retarded.


*burst into room with 20+ biotics on your tail*

'Sup terrorist?'

'OMG teh badz are got implantz and they fuck ur brain! They gon pay nigz!'

'Nah'

'Okay take us in, officer.'

LOL

[Noble Ire]

Now, I only played through the game twice, and I guess I might have missed a few missions, but I think you might be exaggerating a wee bit, Stark. There were a few "charm" or "intimidate" moments that were somewht jarring, but most of them at least bore the signs of a bit of consideration, and plenty seemed perfectly reasonable. The system could have been handled better, namely by not highlighting the appropriate, situation-resolving responses and expanding upon the Saren and Wrex dialogue trees, but all in all, I'm not sure why you find it so aggravating.

[Vympel]

Now, I only played through the game twice, and I guess I might have missed a few missions, but I think you might be exaggerating a wee bit, Stark. There were a few "charm" or "intimidate" moments that were somewht jarring, but most of them at least bore the signs of a bit of consideration, and plenty seemed perfectly reasonable. The system could have been handled better, namely by not highlighting the appropriate, situation-resolving responses and expanding upon the Saren and Wrex dialogue trees, but all in all, I'm not sure why you find it so aggravating.

Dude it's Stark.

[Stark]

Now, I only played through the game twice, and I guess I might have missed a few missions, but I think you might be exaggerating a wee bit, Stark. There were a few "charm" or "intimidate" moments that were somewht jarring, but most of them at least bore the signs of a bit of consideration, and plenty seemed perfectly reasonable. The system could have been handled better, namely by not highlighting the appropriate, situation-resolving responses and expanding upon the Saren and Wrex dialogue trees, but all in all, I'm not sure why you find it so aggravating.

Oh please. You're defending the bad writing by saying it was only bad 'sometimes'? You convince a guy to kill himself by saying the same thing over and over (I believe there's two 'normal' statements before the 'blue' one), and you're basically Jedi mind-tricking people in sidequests (like the angry biotic terrorists I just mentioned). If you're happy with that, then whatever, but the system is weak and the writing is poor. None of this would be relevant if ME hadn't been hyped out the ass with all of the ridiculous statements about these features, and I hate that shit.

Oh and you're probably right on your implication- I played the game six fucking times and I never want to even see it again. This may... somewhat... have coloured by dislike of the game's flaws in it's hyped 'brilliant writing' and 'new alignment system of win'.

[Graeme Dice]

Oh and you're probably right on your implication- I played the game six fucking times and I never want to even see it again.

If you played the game six times, which must have taken hundreds of hours (180 if an average playthrough is 30 hours), then how on Earth can you complain that there was anything seriously wrong with it? It was obviously good enough for you to get enjoyment out of the game for 4.5 weeks worth of a full time job.

[Chardok]

Oh and you're probably right on your implication- I played the game six fucking times and I never want to even see it again.

If you played the game six times, which must have taken hundreds of hours (180 if an average playthrough is 30 hours), then how on Earth can you complain that there was anything seriously wrong with it? It was obviously good enough for you to get enjoyment out of the game for 4.5 weeks worth of a full time job.

No, it's Stark. He gets bored.