[360] Tropico 3 kills PC gaming

[Oskuro]

And here I am agreeing with Stark.

Really, the problem I've always seen with console controls is when they try to emulate schemes that work better with another device (mouse usually), instead of adapting the gameplay to the gamepad, as seems to have been the case with Tropico. Really, if in an RTS you get to order troops around competently, there's nothing sacred about how you select them or activate special functions, same with other gametypes.

As for MMOs, those who have played Champions Online might have noticed there is a distinct lack of point-and-click powers, and a simplistic control scheme. Guess why? Surprise! Cryptic designed the game so it could be released both on PC and the Xbox! Unfortunately the idea of making both platforms share the same servers was shot down by Microsoft (not sure if it was due to technological constraints, but since I'm apparently a MS-Hater, I'll blame it on them wanting to alienate players or something).

And, by the way, the control scheme on CO is pretty nifty, and I could totally see myself playing it with a gamepad.

[Stark]

Sadly, there are probably those who see features introduced on console games (like Sacred 2's 'pick up everything within 10 feet' button) as 'simplfying' the game for 'console babies'. Turns out pick up by area removes 20% of the clicking in a Diablo game, and using face buttons with trigger alternates removes all the combat clicking.

What's best is that the games that are really hard on console (multi-button MMOs, flight sims, micro-heavy RTS) have a whole industry of specialised controllers to support them. If MS let you use those WOW customised keyboards on 360 you could be playing WoW on console tomorrow; same with $200 HOTAS sets and such.

[Vendetta]

What's best is that the games that are really hard on console (multi-button MMOs, flight sims, micro-heavy RTS) have a whole industry of specialised controllers to support them. If MS let you use those WOW customised keyboards on 360 you could be playing WoW on console tomorrow; same with $200 HOTAS sets and such.

There are actually a couple of proper flightsticks for the Xbox, but there are a limited number of games that use them. There's a variant of the Saitek X45 and the Saitek AV8R has an Xbox compatible version.

The Ace Edge (X45) was horrifically expensive though (a fair chunk more than the PC version), and barely available outside of Japan, and the AV8R only really works with HAWX and IL-2. (that said, the version of IL-2 on the consoles is pretty much a full on nerdy combat flight sim, and even works pretty well with a pad).

[Stark]

it may be force of habit but I need the proper interface, the ability to sit down properly and be able to tweak and mod the game.

I'm not sure the loss of modding is really a big deal.

Also at the risk of sounding like a snob any RTS that plays on a console will have too many compromises in interface and design to be of any real interest to me. (Supcom2 I am looking at you)

If it hadn't been canned by the economy exploding, WiC would have worked just fine on console. It wouldn't need any compromises. You demonstrate why PC gamers are generally not people with useful ideas about UI development for consoles.

BTW, replacing menus with wheels in Tropico = strategy game works fine. Oops. Any game with less than a dozen units can replace the unit build area with a wheel and ... it works now.

[General Zod]

BTW, replacing menus with wheels in Tropico = strategy game works fine. Oops. Any game with less than a dozen units can replace the unit build area with a wheel and ... it works now.

They sort of did that with Brutal Legend's design. If they'd used the trigger or shoulder buttons for extra unit types they could've easily included dozens, but it more or less worked fine control-wise. (The gameplay itself is a separate matter of course).

[Stark]

That's what Sacred 2 did with powers; four face buttons for 4 powers/weapons, with each trigger giving you four more. A similar system was used in Dragon Age; buttons are good for powers that need exactness and speed, but wheels are fine for slower-paced stuff like unit queuing. Ironically PC RTS games have also moved toward 'unified' UI instead of 'go to each factory individually' which makes them more console-friendly.

[Thanas]

it may be force of habit but I need the proper interface, the ability to sit down properly and be able to tweak and mod the game.

I'm not sure the loss of modding is really a big deal.

With Tropico 3, no. With other PC games, it sure is. There are some games that will not work with mods or that are much enhanced by high quality mods.

[Stark]

Are you talking about huge TCs for broken-ass games like Silent Hunter, Total War, Bethesda games, etc? On console they'd either sell content or actually finish their games. Modding for gametypes or including other IPs (the most common type for RTS) isn't a big deal, and certainly the developers/publishers don't care. If Creative Assembly are kept away from consoles because they know their QA sucks and modders can't fix their games, that's actually a good thing.

[General Zod]

it may be force of habit but I need the proper interface, the ability to sit down properly and be able to tweak and mod the game.

I'm not sure the loss of modding is really a big deal.

With Tropico 3, no. With other PC games, it sure is. There are some games that will not work with mods or that are much enhanced by high quality mods.

If it won't work without mods why bother with the game in the first place?

[Thanas]

Are you talking about huge TCs for broken-ass games like Silent Hunter, Total War, Bethesda games, etc? On console they'd either sell content or actually finish their games. Modding for gametypes or including other IPs (the most common type for RTS) isn't a big deal, and certainly the developers/publishers don't care. If Creative Assembly are kept away from consoles because they know their QA sucks and modders can't fix their games, that's actually a good thing.

Yeah, those TCs and damage control is what I meant, but there are also a lot of excellent mods for games that had no such problems.

For example, BGII, which is still kept alive and fresh due to mods and little tweaks. Or a great mod like BGTutu, which vastly improved the graphics of BG1 and allows to function it on newer machines.

[Stark]

While it's not relevant to the control issue, UT3 on PS3 actually does support modding. You have to cook the mod with slightly different settings to PC, but the PS3 UT3 mod scene is actually better than the PC one.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Sadly, there are probably those who see features introduced on console games (like Sacred 2's 'pick up everything within 10 feet' button) as 'simplfying' the game for 'console babies'. Turns out pick up by area removes 20% of the clicking in a Diablo game, and using face buttons with trigger alternates removes all the combat clicking.

What's best is that the games that are really hard on console (multi-button MMOs, flight sims, micro-heavy RTS) have a whole industry of specialised controllers to support them. If MS let you use those WOW customised keyboards on 360 you could be playing WoW on console tomorrow; same with $200 HOTAS sets and such.

Stark, you do realize the auto collect feature originated in Sacred, or one of its expansions, which was PC exclusive and not the sequel. Actually, I doubt Sacred was the first ARPG to have an auto collect feature for that matter.

[Stark]

So what? It's an example of a feature introduced to reduce mindless clicking, which makes a game a) more suited to console and b) less PC-specific. People who complain about console games lacking complexity (or whatever) are likely to be people who actually enjoy being forced to click on everything with their Real Ultimate Mouse rather than just collect shit and move on; complexity is confused with busywork.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Merely pointing out the first sentence was factually incorrect. Indeed, one of the largest problems with the RTS genre seems to be the focus on ability to perform many actions in a short timespan vs actual skill at commanding/strategy. Remember the controversy surrounding autocast unit abilities in Warcraft III? Then again, I still think Relic is the most blatant offender in directly promoting this view from the developer end of things. It's been so long since Blizzard released an RTS that I don't feel they can fairly be compared with more modern games in the genre, at least until Starcraft 2 is actually released then they can be criticized as needed.

[TC27]

Stark - you may have a point about most mainstream RTS games, they mostly have become (or always were) ultra competitive clickfest play by numbers exploitfests and are well suited to console gaming - I am sure that C&C/Starcraft et al will probaly be console only in a couple of generations....personally I wont miss them at all.

[Covenant]

We'll see. PC's are not a dead market, but I hope that RTS games make the leap towards consoles before they demand consoles get keypad/airtouch support.

It's not difficult to design a smart UI, but you need to do it bottom up, and I think that if players get a taste of a real streamlined RTS interface that makes army command easy... well, they'll never WANT to play starcraft-style micro again, except for a few holdout who claim it's "pro" to do it that way.

If that can happen then by the time hardware catches up with software needs, we'll have a clean RTS UI as standard and not simply more ways to handle a clumsy UI.

[Stark]

Merely pointing out the first sentence was factually incorrect. Indeed, one of the largest problems with the RTS genre seems to be the focus on ability to perform many actions in a short timespan vs actual skill at commanding/strategy. Remember the controversy surrounding autocast unit abilities in Warcraft III? Then again, I still think Relic is the most blatant offender in directly promoting this view from the developer end of things. It's been so long since Blizzard released an RTS that I don't feel they can fairly be compared with more modern games in the genre, at least until Starcraft 2 is actually released then they can be criticized as needed.

Well, it's a Sacred 2 thing, not anything from the original, so nyah. But yeah, the whole 'omg autocast' thing is terrible; in Relic games you have a fucking 'throw nade' button. If they'd gone the WiC route and made nades less devastating but more regularly used and had the nade power be 'everyone spam omg' people wouldn't have worried.

[Oskuro]

We'll see. PC's are not a dead market

Not at all, it is a perfectly viable market, the problem is that it is not as profitable for AAA devs as the consoles. I mean, there are tons of low budget games being made for the PC, some with interesting new twists on old genres, some pure crap, some amusing, the thing is that these titles won't be features in massive publicity stunts, not will they garner the massive attention that AAA gaming does.

Edit: Before I get flakk for this, I'm not saying consoles are AAA exclusive, we've already discussed this, they are a valid environment for small developers, I'm just saying that the ones making a massive migration are the big boys.


And it is perfectly understandable, really, if you pour that much money into your development, you want to make sure it'll be profitable, and move to the best market for it. As for players, if you're really into the sort of games being developed for the consoles, buy a console, if not, don't.


Now, about Diablo, fuck the constant clicking. I hated it from the first time I played Diablo 1. I know I'll get flak for mentioning HIM, but fuck it, go watch Yatzhee's ZP clip on Torchlight, that's exactly how I feel about that control scheme. No wait, I hate it even more. AAAARGH!

Did you know that the Diablo expansion (not made by Blizzard) added the Monk class whose class speacial spell was the ability to highligh items so you could pick them up easily? You know, the same function that was implemented as a basic funtionality in Diablo 2. Sacred was always meant to be a refinement of Diablo, and the "pick all" function was necessary, regardless of wich platform you play the game on, wich is, pretty much, what we are talking about, the UI needs to be fun to use, and making the game clunkier just to preserve some supposedly holy interface gimmick is retarded, wich of course explains why so many Wii titles deserve to burn in a furnace.

[Stark]

The gamepad controls for Sacred 2 basically make it a q diabl that plays like a normal game. The only way the console version suffered was in the placement of area attacks, but it worked fine and was worth it to get over thefifteen million clicks approach. I strongly prefer gamepad control fr q diabls.