Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Starglider »

DaveJB wrote:Microsoft really have no reason not to go balls-to-the-wall in terms of specs
I'd like to think so, but the most credible sources currently have them significantly behind Sony on GPU power and memory bandwidth.
What really seems odd is that the CPU Sony have chosen is essentially an 8-core version of the chip AMD makes for tablets and netbooks, given that games generally seem to prefer CPUs with strong single-thread performance
This setup has a significantly higher MIPS/power ratio which is critical when the CPU is essentially stuffed onto a GPU die as an afterthought. Contemporary PC games prefer strong single-thread performance mostly because the vast majority of devs suck at writing good multi-threaded engines. To be fair, that's partly because threading for 8 cores is wasted effort on all the cheap 4-core PCs and netbook/legacy dual core junk. PS3 devs have been dealing with the insane Cell setup for years though, they shouldn't have any significant problems using 8 symmetric sensibly designed cores.
Though I suppose they could have one of the core clusters clocked really fast to handle the main game engine, and a bunch of slower ones to handle ancillary tasks.
Not worth the hassle. Speaking of which, will be interesting to see if Microsoft ditch backward compatibility, given that Sony just did.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Will buy when the first Super Robot Wars game comes to it in 6+ years.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Sony's silly Cell made PS3 the most difficult/expensive platform to develop for - so much so that lots of people just never bothered. I guess a stock AMD multi core can't be that bad. :lol:
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Why are people so anti-PlayStation? I've never had anything but good experiences with my PS3, and only bad ones with XBoxes, not to mention I just prefer the games for the former (Uncharted, et al).
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Stark »

They're probably thinking about more than their own tiny sample size. XBL is better than PSN, Xbox media is better than the zero Sony has, cheaper platform, etc. I'm interested that Sony repeats it's mistakes with the last two consoles by focusing on 'gimmicks' they hope will be the next big thing instead of focusing making the useful platform to make money from. Unless the Xbox is significantly weaker hardware wise as Starglider suggests, I don't see any reason to even think about buying a PS4.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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I've enjoyed some of Sony's exclusives such as Disgea, the Ratchet and Clank series, Infamous, even Metal Gear: The Movie; and the Bluray player is a nice feature, but I really wish Sony would start taking cues from Microsoft when it comes to creating an online network.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Jub wrote:I've enjoyed some of Sony's exclusives such as Disgea, the Ratchet and Clank series, Infamous, even Metal Gear: The Movie; and the Bluray player is a nice feature, but I really wish Sony would start taking cues from Microsoft when it comes to creating an online network.
One of the main reasons I bought a PS3 was because it was considered one of the best BD players on the market. It still is. Unfortunately, the games never really appealed to me outside of a few exclusives (Uncharted, Metal Gear), and games that could be had on the 360 as well. The new XBOX will likely have BD playback, so that can't be a reason to fall back on.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Ziggy Stardust wrote:Why are people so anti-PlayStation? I've never had anything but good experiences with my PS3, and only bad ones with XBoxes, not to mention I just prefer the games for the former (Uncharted, et al).
The hardware is a disgusting mix of thrown-together-at-the-last-minute awfulness (the GPU, the split memory architecture) and carefully manufactured pure horror (the Cell). Sony was and mostly still is horrible at developer relations. PSN had and mostly still has awful security and poor functionality.

However the PS1 & 2 were pretty good and I'm optimistic the PS4 will be a return to form. Sony does seem able and willing to focus on non-casual gaming. Microsoft OTOH did very well with Kinect, but in the next gen they'll no doubt push their Metro crap and sideline games even more, in favour of ever more advertisting, video, phone-style apps and fake-social bullshit. On a software level they seem to be ditching the things that actually worked well on the X360 (e.g. XNA) - the people now in charge seem to be the same ones who screwed up every single mobile initiative they've made (from Zune to Surface RT through every version of Windows Phone).
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Jub »

JLTucker wrote:
Jub wrote:I've enjoyed some of Sony's exclusives such as Disgea, the Ratchet and Clank series, Infamous, even Metal Gear: The Movie; and the Bluray player is a nice feature, but I really wish Sony would start taking cues from Microsoft when it comes to creating an online network.
One of the main reasons I bought a PS3 was because it was considered one of the best BD players on the market. It still is. Unfortunately, the games never really appealed to me outside of a few exclusives (Uncharted, Metal Gear), and games that could be had on the 360 as well. The new XBOX will likely have BD playback, so that can't be a reason to fall back on.
I should have phrased that better, those are all reasons that I liked the PS3 and why I have hope that I'll be able to enjoy the PS4. In the end, once prices come down, I'll likely end up picking up both consoles at some point in the next console cycle.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Stark wrote:They're probably thinking about more than their own tiny sample size.
All anyone had said in this thread before I asked was, "LOL PS sucks", so you can shove that smug comment. Maybe I phrased my post poorly, as I didn't mean it as a whining defense for the PlayStation, more as an honest question as to why people disliked it so much, as I personally haven't noticed major deficiencies.

Starglider wrote: The hardware is a disgusting mix of thrown-together-at-the-last-minute awfulness (the GPU, the split memory architecture) and carefully manufactured pure horror (the Cell). Sony was and mostly still is horrible at developer relations. PSN had and mostly still has awful security and poor functionality.

However the PS1 & 2 were pretty good and I'm optimistic the PS4 will be a return to form. Sony does seem able and willing to focus on non-casual gaming. Microsoft OTOH did very well with Kinect, but in the next gen they'll no doubt push their Metro crap and sideline games even more, in favour of ever more advertisting, video, phone-style apps and fake-social bullshit. On a software level they seem to be ditching the things that actually worked well on the X360 (e.g. XNA) - the people now in charge seem to be the same ones who screwed up every single mobile initiative they've made (from Zune to Surface RT through every version of Windows Phone).
I don't like playing console games online, so I can't really say much about the PSN.

Why exactly is the hardware so horrible on the PS3? I mean, do they just use shitty components or what?

I'm just curious because I always hear more "hardcore" gamers talk about how they prefer the XBox to the PlayStation, but from personal experience I've been unable to figure out why. I guess since I'm more of a casual gamer a lot of the issues might be ones that don't effect me (like playing online ... I'm still a proponent of split-screen multiplayer for FPS over online).
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Stark »

Their retarded processor and architecture (compared to Xbox and of) means more time and money was required. If I can talk to vendetta I can mention a few games that actually died in development during the 'game finished, now make ps3 version' phase. All their supercomputer bullshit did was fuck them up. If the next lot were all of the shelf stuff, it'd be better for gaming overall. It looks like the money is moving toward media and casual stuff anyway.

It's p funny to see the excuses people come up with. :v
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Ziggy Stardust wrote:Why exactly is the hardware so horrible on the PS3? I mean, do they just use shitty components or what?
On paper, the PS3 should be cranking out cross-platform games that put the 360 to shame in every area. However, cross-plats tend to not only look better on the 360, but also have better performance. The PS3 generally only beats out the 360 on load times and sheer amounts of content (read: 9 hours worth the cutscenes) and that's only due to mandatory installs.

Making your system easy to develop for is part deciding what hardware to use.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Flagg »

It's hilarious to me that GTA4 looked markedly better on 360 than PS3.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Supposedly the Cell was supposed to be like the custom AMD chip they're using in the PS4 - a single-chip solution that would handle both the CPU and GPU functions, providing a fast exchange of data between the two sections and keeping costs down at the same time. Unfortunately the Cell didn't have anywhere near the power to do that (and cross-platform porting would have been next to impossible too), so Sony had to resort to grabbing a stock GeForce chip and slapping it into the system. And while the PS3's graphics chip wasn't really bad per se, it lacks both the raw power of the 360's GPU and a number of features which the 360 and even the Wii had to facilitate console development.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Ziggy Stardust wrote:Why exactly is the hardware so horrible on the PS3? I mean, do they just use shitty components or what?
The GPU on the Xbox360 was bleeding edge when designed (in 2004). It was one of the very first mass market unified shader designs, based on the first iteration of the very successful ATI VLIW5 architecture (that was used in the Radeon 2xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx, 5xxx and 6xxxx series). Unified shaders are easier to program and ensure that you can always use all of the GPU power for any task. The Kinect was only possible because forward-looking GPU design allowed GPGPU gesture processing. The unified memory again makes programming much easier, as there is no static partition between GPU-accessible and CPU-accessible RAM or (for non-XNA games) slow transfers betweeen the two. The embedded DRAM daughter die was a very smart way to greatly increase effective GPU power (for typical late 2000s game engines) at low cost, by unloading framebuffer access from the main RAM interface and z-cull/blending from the main GPU. The GPU even has a tesselator, six years ahead of general adoption of tesselation in PC games, although it was only used in a few exclusives. The CPU was somewhat less innovative but still pretty decent; triple core at a time when dual core was just starting to appear in consumer PCs, the high-clocked PowerPC cores had a better MIPS/transistor ratio than x86, were still relatively easy to program and had a fast but straightforward vector instruction set.

The Cell on the other had is worthless crap, one decent CPU core and six extremely limited and hard to program ones (one core was dead for manufacturing yield reasons and one reserved for the OS). The whole SPU concept was a stupid compromise between CPU and GPU that did neither well, and was completely eclipsed by fully programmable GPUs. The PS3 was originally supposed to have two Cells, but when it became obvious that performance would be laughable Sony grabbed whatever they could get cheap and integrate quickly from Nvidia and shoved it in as a GPU. That turned out to be a pre-obsolete G70, at the tail end of the development of the classic partially programmable split vertex/pixel shader architecture (about to be replaced by an all new integrated design in the GeForce 8xxx series). Sony were too rushed and/or incompetent to implement an integrated memory architecture, so the console was left with a PC-style split system RAM / VRAM. That's fine on PCs because they have several times more total memory than a console, on the PS3 it severely restricted texture size and deferred rendering techniques.

So in short using bleeding edge tech and making custom hardware can be very beneficial if you do it well (e.g. X360 GPU choice and eDRAM setup), bad if you screw up (Cell, PS3 GPU choice).
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Having owned both a Playstation 3 and Xbox 360. I enjoyed both of them. The playstation store could have a wider selection of games, but the graphics worked fine, the games I was able to play on them (Sly 4, Arkham City, Uncharted, Assassins Creed 3, the collection of Ico and Shadow of the Collossus, and God of War 3) were extremely fun to play. All in all, the hatred against the PS3 just seems petty and stupid.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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You mean that hatred you made up? People talking about the structural flaws and poor business decisions shouldn't make you feel bad.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Everyone should now discount Yan as a yammering PS fanboy. Carry on.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

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Who actually wants to watch me play COD with a 0.3 K/D ratio? I can't see that feature taking off.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by CaptHawkeye »

So if I understood Starglider, what he basically said was that the Xbox 360 used a good combination of relatively new hardware with a big emphasis on compatibility with future or theory software. So one day the 360 would be able to take easier advantage of potential developments in Xbox Live and games or even really paper theory stuff (at the time) like motion sensing. While Sony took a brute force approach with the PS3 and basically just stuffed as much high-power hardware into the case as they practically could. This meant the PS3 would have a short term lead because of raw performance/number crunching. It also meant the system was not terribly flexible because it's design was so heavily focused around its hardware and not the software potential.
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Re: Sony Playstation 4 Event in NY

Post by Starglider »

CaptHawkeye wrote:the Xbox 360 used a good combination of relatively new hardware with a big emphasis on compatibility with future software. While Sony took a brute force approach with the PS3 and basically just stuffed as much high-power hardware into the case as they practically could.
Both companies tried to be forward looking and future-proof. When the Cell started development, GPUs were fixed-function rendering pipelines with relatively limited compute power. The trend throughout computing had been fairly rapid folding of special-function hardware back into the CPU, it wasn't obvious that GPUs would become massively more powerful and more programmable, eclipsing the CPU for games programming. Microsoft were being forward-looking with three cores, but Sony thought they were being even more forward-looking with nine cores (later reduced to six usable). Sony's failure with IBM Cell was similar to HP (and others) jumping onto the Intel Itanium bandwagon in the late 90s / early 2000s, most of the analysts said it was 'the future', only a few experienced and cynical hardware experts saw that it would be a technical failure.

The 'stuff whatever we can find in there' phase only came later, when it was obvious that Microsoft would beat Sony to the market by a year and Sony were getting desperate. For whatever reason they felt they couldn't use AMD, and they weren't prepared to wait for the decently programmable Nvidia parts to come out. They weren't even prepared to spend the design time to integrate the memory heirarchy, time-to-market was critical so it had to be an off-the-shelf PC GPU.
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