New Dungeon Keeper Game

[TheFeniX]

Sticky-jump, pipe to the face. Nearly a one-hit kill with a normal grenade, one-hit kill even with full overheal if it's a crit. Also, sticky-jumping has greater range, higher speed, and is more difficult to evade. The charging shields change the style of the ridiculously fast movement from "arc through the air" to "straight forward along the ground", but that's it.

If anything, that shows the gameplay changes rather than attacking my point.

The shield is the closest thing to a "gameplay change" and all it does is change the vector of the demoman's rapid movement ability (and guarantee a crit, instead of just hoping for one). Maybe put milk and jarate on that list too. Pretty much everything else is a little +/- or conditional marginal advantage/disadvantage, without significantly changing the class's role.

I don't think you understand what constitutes gameplay changes. For just one example: snipers have always been backstab bait, forcing them to either watch their own back (quite literally) or rely on a pyro/intelligent player to out spies. Now they have access to a back shield forcing hesitation from spies and for them to change their tactics.

This is because the gameplay system has changed. Previously, a sniper was a sniper: I'm going to stab him in the back. With the load-out system, I can't expect every sniper to have access to the same tools: that forces different gameplay decisions, hence changing the gameplay.

The way to get weapons is "play more", and they drop randomly.

So, I play at a disadvantage (having less options) than someone who has idled for hours in a server.

As for "progression", I think you're just trolling at this point. The unlockable weapons, in overwhelming proportion, aren't better*, they're different. You don't get "gold-plated grenade launchers" that are exactly the same as a regular grenade launcher except they do more damage. You don't progress from a flame thrower to a backburner, you choose one or the other because you like the benefits over the drawbacks more than the other. One variant may suit your playstyle more, but it's not better, just more suited to you/your team/the current situation.

Do they give you access to abilities that you don't have otherwise? Does the option to change your load-out give you more versatility as a player? That's progression. It doesn't have to be linear.

*If you play on no-random-crit servers, there are a few weapons that are a slight upgrade from stock, but they are few and far between, and generally only competitive servers run nocrit. If you're playing in a league, I'd expect you already have a wide array of weapons. And there are actually gold-plated grenade launchers, but they are strictly cosmetic, with zero gameplay impact.

There mere fact that leagues ban certain items shoots your "different, not better" idea in the foot.

[Terralthra]

The shield is the closest thing to a "gameplay change" and all it does is change the vector of the demoman's rapid movement ability (and guarantee a crit, instead of just hoping for one). Maybe put milk and jarate on that list too. Pretty much everything else is a little +/- or conditional marginal advantage/disadvantage, without significantly changing the class's role.

I don't think you understand what constitutes gameplay changes. For just one example: snipers have always been backstab bait, forcing them to either watch their own back (quite literally) or rely on a pyro/intelligent player to out spies. Now they have access to a back shield forcing hesitation from spies and for them to change their tactics.

This is because the gameplay system has changed. Previously, a sniper was a sniper: I'm going to stab him in the back. With the load-out system, I can't expect every sniper to have access to the same tools: that forces different gameplay decisions, hence changing the gameplay.

A lone sniper is still spy-bait, because you have a pistol. A sniper who isn't watching their back and paying attention to their surroundings is easy meat to a spy, razorback or no. The "gameplay change" is that you, what, hit "1" instead of "2" before mindlessly killing the sniper?

The way to get weapons is "play more", and they drop randomly.

So, I play at a disadvantage (having less options) than someone who has idled for hours in a server.

Valve has more or less disabled the ability to get weapons from idling. The more you talk about TF2, the more it's clear you haven't played in years, yet still you think of yourself as an expert.

*If you play on no-random-crit servers, there are a few weapons that are a slight upgrade from stock, but they are few and far between, and generally only competitive servers run nocrit. If you're playing in a league, I'd expect you already have a wide array of weapons. And there are actually gold-plated grenade launchers, but they are strictly cosmetic, with zero gameplay impact.

There mere fact that leagues ban certain items shoots your "different, not better" idea in the foot.

The fact that no two leagues have the same banlist shoots your idea of "better" weapons in the foot. Hell, some leagues ban cosmetic items, for the flimsiest of reasons, but allow weapons that other leagues consider "overpowered." Almost makes you think that the advantages v. disadvantages conferred by a weapon are subjective and dependent entirely on situational factors...

[InsaneTD]

Probably more to do with the guy running the league's pet hates, things he can never work out how to over come. There is always that one class/combo/ability that always ruins your day cause it is so counter to your play style you can't counter it easily.

[TheFeniX]

A lone sniper is still spy-bait, because you have a pistol. A sniper who isn't watching their back and paying attention to their surroundings is easy meat to a spy, razorback or no. The "gameplay change" is that you, what, hit "1" instead of "2" before mindlessly killing the sniper?

In what fantasy land is a one-hit kill melee attack the same as a possible 1-hit kill, usually 2+ shot? Do bullets not make noise in the new TF2? Do you not have to aim the guns? Is there not a better chance to miss your headshot if the Sniper is moving while aiming? This isn't different gamplay than "click, stab, dead?" Hell, I used to pop snipers with my revolver from stealth all the time, but that decision was based on the situation. Now it must be based on the situation, my current load-out, and my opponent's current load out.

That's just one example of new choices that have to be made in TF2, among many, that did not exist when the game first came out. But I guess that's not "gameplay" changes because somehow, even though the gameplay is different from when it came out, it's still the same. Somehow.

Valve has more or less disabled the ability to get weapons from idling. The more you talk about TF2, the more it's clear you haven't played in years, yet still you think of yourself as an expert.

Whatever. Time played. Quit dodging the fucking point: TF2 play is now based around who have played longer getting access to more tools. It's a huge gameplay shift over the original. It is not the same just because you still shoot other players.

The fact that no two leagues have the same banlist shoots your idea of "better" weapons in the foot. Hell, some leagues ban cosmetic items, for the flimsiest of reasons, but allow weapons that other leagues consider "overpowered." Almost makes you think that the advantages v. disadvantages conferred by a weapon are subjective and dependent entirely on situational factors...

The Wrangler allows the Engineer to take control of his Sentry Gun, determining what it fires, when it fires, and where it fires. In addition, it removes the maximum targeting range of the sentry allowing a much greater field of coverage for the sentry. The Wrangler is the most popular engineer secondary weapon in every league where it isn't banned. It can fire at an overall faster rate than normal, and shields the sentry from 2/3 of incoming damage. When it is switched out of being active, it will de-activate the sentry for 1 second, leaving it shielded for that time.

And you have to "give up" the engineer's pistol to get that. What a tough choice to make!

Not better, just different. Way different. Different in a "Why the fuck would you ever use anything else ever?" kind of way, but not better. Yea, not buying it.

Not even that having "Better" weapons is really a part of my point, it's that different can be better based on the situation, as valve intended. However, that wasn't the original gameplay decisions TF2 needed to play and now it is. Hence a major change to the gameplay.

[InsaneTD]

Probably got too many complaints that it wasn't "omg CoD z best/battlefield rulez" enough.

[Terralthra]

Well, you've crossed the line from "subjective opinion" to saying factually inaccurate things. In quotes, as if that makes it less factually inaccurate! So, I'm done. You don't like TF2 because "weapons". Enjoy not playing it.

[TheFeniX]

Probably got too many complaints that it wasn't "omg CoD z best/battlefield rulez" enough.

Vendetta did a good job explaining what TF2 does for valve. It isn't about making it a CoD clone (even though the game isn't that either way), it's about offering an entertaining and free diversion that forces you to use Steam. Like how valve was able to jump start the platform years back by forcing Counter-Strike and all other HL mods to beta test it.

By having random and achievement based drops in the game, you also pull in an entirely different type of gamer.

Well, you've crossed the line from "subjective opinion" to saying factually inaccurate things. In quotes, as if that makes it less factually inaccurate! So, I'm done. You don't like TF2 because "weapons".

Cry more why don't you. I don't care if you like TF2. What I find hilarious is that you think dozens if not hundreds of gameplay changes, not just including weapons, are somehow not gameplay changes and TF2 gameplay hasn't changed much even though I've gone back to it a few times over the years and said gameplay changes are immediately apparent.

And if the TF2 wiki is factually incorrect about the Wrangler, that's not my problem because even if I cared to reinstall TF2, I couldn't find out if it was accurate unless I was willing to grind achievements. Which just further hammers home the point that TF2 has changed over the years.

Enjoy not playing it.

Did they ever give players a reason to not use the Ubersaw over the stock Medic melee weapon? That was when I quit. I realized I was running around with my melee weapon out like a fucking moron on public servers to whore stupid achievements so I could perform better as my go to class. I was grinding in an FPS and even worse than what you would do in CoD. At least in CoD, you shoot dudez with dude-killing weapon #7 to get attachment #1,2,3,4 for said weapon. TF2 has you doing inane shit like getting kills as a medic. The irony of that realization hit me and I knew the game was going in a direction I wasn't going to like.

See, if they had just given me the fucking weapon in a game I already owned, I wouldn't have had an issue with it. But this was the same bullshit EA started pulling back in Battlefield 2, but valve gets a pass. valve used early adopters to beta test their platform and progression system and at the end of it all, valve said "Thanks for the help, here's a hat. BTW you can't rollback any of the changes we've made because Steam and just unlocking the weapons would be unfair or something... fuck you, that's why."

Long story short, I have never regretted putting down TF2. The game was a textbook case of a developer pulling the rug out from under those stupid enough to be loyal to a brand (like I was), in order to pander to a completely different type of gamer. It's actually a very smart business choice, but it also makes you an asshole.

[Terralthra]

The hilarious thing is that you don't even realize how full of shit and hypocritical you are. It's almost sad.

[TheFeniX]

The hilarious thing is that you don't even realize how full of shit and hypocritical you are. It's almost sad.

I'm sure you're the popular one on the TF2 official forums.

EA has released an official comment on their review scamming:

“We're always looking at new ways to gather player feedback so that we can continue to improve our games. The 'rate this app' feature in the Google Play version of ‘Dungeon Keeper’ was designed to help us collect valuable feedback from players who don't feel the game is worth a top rating. We wanted to make it easier for more players to send us feedback directly from the game if they weren't having the best experience. Players can always continue to leave any rating they want on the Google Play Store.”

Pretty standard BS. It's not like they could have read reviews on the app store or anything.

I don't know how ibtimes feels about direct linking, but the following snapshot shows how EA tomfoolery has worked out for them:

Molyneux is crying as well:

"I felt myself turning round saying, 'What? This is ridiculous. I just want to make a dungeon. I don't want to schedule it on my alarm clock for six days to come back for a block to be chipped,'" he told the BBC.

Mr Molyneux said some of the criticism came from fans of the original who simply wanted an updated version of the game they fondly remembered.

He added: "I don't think they got it quite right, the balance between keeping it familiar to the fans that were out there but fresh enough and understandable enough for this much bigger mobile audience."

Molyneux's a jerk-off, but it's funny to see him surprised when there's no reason for him to be.

[Terralthra]

The hilarious thing is that you don't even realize how full of shit and hypocritical you are. It's almost sad.

I'm sure you're the popular one on the TF2 official forums.

Dude, you talked about getting headshots with a Spy revolver while simultaneously, in the same post, bitching about how any unlockable weapon is "changing gameplay" and therefore bad. It's simply so ludicrously doublethink that the only explanation is that you don't even realize how hypocritical you are. Also, it shows that your little parable about how you quit because of the Ubersaw and medic achievements is also an entertaining fiction, but only to someone who can read and use a calendar, so I guess you thought you'd be able to sneak it by.

[TheFeniX]

Dude, you talked about getting headshots with a Spy revolver while simultaneously, in the same post, bitching about how any unlockable weapon is "changing gameplay" and therefore bad.

No, it's just bad when done like it is in TF2.

It's simply so ludicrously doublethink that the only explanation is that you don't even realize how hypocritical you are. Also, it shows that your little parable about how you quit because of the Ubersaw and medic achievements is also an entertaining fiction, but only to someone who can read and use a calendar, so I guess you thought you'd be able to sneak it by.

I honestly don't know what you're on about. The Ubersaw was released as part of the medic update and was a straight upgrade from the stock saw. It required a metric shit-ton of achievements to unlock:"The Übersaw was previously unlocked after earning all 39 Medic achievements. This has since been reduced, due to difficulty."

If you're calling me a liar, back it up hatfucker.

[Terralthra]

Dude, you talked about getting headshots with a Spy revolver while simultaneously, in the same post, bitching about how any unlockable weapon is "changing gameplay" and therefore bad.

No, it's just bad when done like it is in TF2.

It's simply so ludicrously doublethink that the only explanation is that you don't even realize how hypocritical you are. Also, it shows that your little parable about how you quit because of the Ubersaw and medic achievements is also an entertaining fiction, but only to someone who can read and use a calendar, so I guess you thought you'd be able to sneak it by.

I honestly don't know what you're on about. The Ubersaw was released as part of the medic update and was a straight upgrade from the stock saw. It required a metric shit-ton of achievements to unlock:"The Übersaw was previously unlocked after earning all 39 Medic achievements. This has since been reduced, due to difficulty."

If you're calling me a liar, back it up hatfucker.

Sure. You mentioned as an element of why the Razorback changed spy gameplay so much, that the sniper moving around would make headshotting him with the revolver harder. Getting headshots with a spy's default revolver is impossible. The default spy pistol doesn't headshot, and at the time of the Gold Rush update (April, 2008), the only weapon in the game that could headshot was a sniper rifle. The spy's ability to get a headshot was added in May, 2009, with the Sniper v. Spy update, with the unlockable Ambassador pistol for the spy. If you're talking about the difficulty of getting headshots as spy, you a) played until at least the Sniper v. Spy update over a year after the Gold Rush update and b) don't mind unlockable weapons changing gameplay.

If you had actually quit TF2 over the Ubersaw and medic achievements, even months later, there's no way you'd care about headshots as a spy.

Also, the Ubersaw is not a "straight upgrade" to the Bonesaw, it has a major gameplay penalty. You could say "attack speed doesn't matter", but it does. There is a "straight upgrade" to the Bonesaw, the Solemn Vow, but it offers a relatively minor gameplay advantage (seeing opponent health and ubercharge status).

[TheFeniX]

Sure. You mentioned as an element of why the Razorback changed spy gameplay so much, that the sniper moving around would make headshotting him with the revolver harder. Getting headshots with a spy's default revolver is impossible. The default spy pistol doesn't headshot, and at the time of the Gold Rush update (April, 2008), the only weapon in the game that could headshot was a sniper rifle. The spy's ability to get a headshot was added in May, 2009, with the Sniper v. Spy update, with the unlockable Ambassador pistol for the spy. If you're talking about the difficulty of getting headshots as spy, you a) played until at least the Sniper v. Spy update over a year after the Gold Rush update and b) don't mind unlockable weapons changing gameplay.

You actually got me here because I was dumb enough to misremember that headshots didn't matter in TF2 aside from Snipers. I spent most of my time as Engineer, Demoman, or Medic, so it was a fairly moot point to me.

If you had actually quit TF2 over the Ubersaw and medic achievements, even months later, there's no way you'd care about headshots as a spy.

You could have just left it there instead of trying and failing to go all Sherlock on my ass. People actually do forget shit about games they haven't played much at all in 6 years or so. So, I'm either so bad from my limited playing over the years I couldn't even make progress on a single-achievement, or I haven't been around since they were released. Either way, it still doesn't address my point about changes in the gameplay.

Also, the Ubersaw is not a "straight upgrade" to the Bonesaw, it has a major gameplay penalty. You could say "attack speed doesn't matter", but it does. There is a "straight upgrade" to the Bonesaw, the Solemn Vow, but it offers a relatively minor gameplay advantage (seeing opponent health and ubercharge status).

4 hits to get a full uber is such a massive advantage over a lower melee rate. Your stretching the definition of "penalty" to it's breaking point. Looking at it's equip stats, both the competitive and general community are pretty much in sync that it's worth taking over the stock saw in all cases, unless you don't have it.

[Zaune]

GOG.com stick their oar in.

[TheFeniX]

I was going to post this, but noticed Darth Tanner has done so in the "Bargain Bin" thread. Also of note, DK2 is 75% off and I plan on purchasing it as well when I get home as I never got the chance to play it.

[TheFeniX]

Major necro, but this really doesn't seem worth it's own thread as they haven't done anything note-worthy (at least on a positive note) in a decade and this is likely related as Dungeon Keeper was their last title:

EA has shut-down Mythic Entertainment:

EA has shut down Mythic Entertainment, the longtime video game studio most recently responsible for Warhammer Online and the Dungeon Keeper reboot for mobile platforms.

When reached by Kotaku, EA sent over the following statement:

We are closing the EA Mythic location in Fairfax, Virginia, as we concentrate mobile development in our other studio locations. We are working with all impacted employees to provide assistance in finding new opportunities, either within EA or with other companies via an upcoming job fair.

Founded in 1995, Mythic also developed Dark Age of Camelot and a number of other online games including the popular MUD Dragon's Gate. Their most recent release, a microtransaction-heavy remake of the classic strategy game Dungeon Keeper, was received poorly by many gamers.

Yea, because it really matters who you get to crank out your AAA shovelware. That's not fair, at least shovelware gives you 100% of the content for the list price. This is a whole new class of game that's hard to label, but I can try. I figure "a box of shit you sprinkle money onto in hopes it doesn't taste as bad" would be a good start.

[Grumman]

Any time people want to stop buying EA games would be great, guys. No money, no buying respected studios and running them into the fucking ground.

[bilateralrope]

Two developments on Dungeon Keeper.

The first is that calling it free to play is misleading advertising.

Dungeon Keeper Ads Misleading, Concludes UK Advertising Watchdog
Marla Desat | 4 July 2014 8:45 am
30

The UK's Advertising Standards Authority has ruled that EA's marketing for the free-to-play title failed to make clear how timing mechanics severely limited gameplay without in-app purchases.

A complaint against Electronics Arts over its advertising for the free-to-play Dungeon Keeper mobile game has been upheld by the UK's independent advertising regulator, the Advertising Standards Authority. The complaint argued that an email marketing campaign that advertised the free game was misleading because it did not make clear that "gameplay was severely limited unless in-app purchases were made." The ASA has ruled that in future advertisements, EA must make clear the limits put on free gameplay and the role of in-app purchases in the game, particularly when it comes to speeding up gameplay.

EA argued against the complaint, stating that players were not required to purchase the in-app currency Gems in order to progress, and that all players could earn Gems through in-game events. The ruling says, "[EA] stated that the average player would expect a free-to-play title to be monetised with countdown timers and premium currency [...] [EA] stated their belief that the mechanics of Dungeon Keeper were well within the average length and frequency for the market and that players of combat simulators would therefore reasonably expect them." EA also argued that the timers provided a sense of progression and resource management, and that even without the monetisation, the game will still have a timing mechanism. In the ruling, the ASA concludes, "The nature of the timer frequency and length in Dungeon Keeper, in combination with the way it was monetised, was likely to create a game experience for non-spenders that did not reflect their reasonable expectations from the content of the ad. Because the game had the potential to restrict gameplay beyond that which would be expected by consumers and the ad did not make this aspect of the role of in-app purchasing clear, we concluded that it was misleading." The contested ad described the game as free, but did not mention in-app purchases.

Andrew Wilson, CEO of EA, told Eurogamer in an interview in June that the company "misjudged the economy" of Dungeon Keeper. "For new players, it was kind of a cool game," Wilson said. "For people who'd grown up playing Dungeon Keeper there was a disconnect there. In that aspect we didn't walk that line as well as we could have. And that's a shame." Players didn't feel they were getting value for their money in Dungeon Keeper, and Wilson admitted that, going forward, "value has to exist" for any business model. After this ruling, we can expect to see disclaimers at the bottom of ads for new free-to-play games, warning players that gameplay progression may be slow without in-app purchases, right beside the little "wireless charges may apply" warning that was included in the original EA ad.

From what little I've seen of mobile 'free to play' titles, I can believe EA when they say that "that the mechanics of Dungeon Keeper were well within the average length and frequency for the market". Time will tell if other titles with similar free to wait mechanics will keep calling themselves free to play or not.


The second, that shows just how clueless EA are: They think Dungeon Keeper failed because the innovated too much.

EA: Dungeon Keeper Failed by "Innovating Too Much"
Ian Davis | 10 July 2014 5:30 am
176
Dungeon Keeper

People just weren't ready for the mobile game, according to EA exec.

EA's free-to-play reboot of the classic Dungeon Keeper could have gone better, to say the least. It used the beloved franchise as a skinsuit for a sleazy cash grab. Not only was it panned, but it also sank its developer, Mythic. Six months later, the company is still dealing with the fallout. While EA CEO Andrew WIlson recently apologized for the whole thing, saying it was wrong, Frank Gibeau, EA's head of mobile, has gone the other direction and speculated that audiences just weren't ready for it yet.

"Dungeon Keeper suffered from a few things," Gibeau told Games Industry. "I think we might have innovated too much or tried some different things that people just weren't ready for... I don't think we did a particularly good job marketing it or talking to fans about their expectations for what Dungeon Keeper was going to be or ultimately should be."

While Dungeon Keeper ended up killing veteran developer Mythic, EA will still maintain the game because of its commitment to players. As Gibeau said, "[W]hen you bring in a group of people to Dungeon Keeper and you serve them, create a live service, a relationship and a connection, you just can't pull the rug out from under them. That's just not fair."

It should be noted that EA can no longer legally market the game as free in Europe, due to its crazy amount of in-app purchases. At this point, it's likely best if EA just stops talking about Dungeon Keeper all together and moves on.

Does anyone know what parts of Dungeon Keeper showed any innovation ?

[Grumman]

The second, that shows just how clueless EA are: They think Dungeon Keeper failed because the innovated too much.

They're not clueless - they're pretending to be clueless because it lets them trick the gullible. It's like those poorly written spam emails - if you can see through it, you're not the target audience.

Alternatively, they actually do believe this. And they're right - if they'd just waited for their Matrix future, where customers barely survive on a diet of Soylent Green while spending their entire lives playing EA's games, their strategy of promising a "free" game before extracting the maximum dollars per hour would have worked far better.

[TheFeniX]

I'm inclined to believe they're clueless, at least in some sense: any fucking moron who though "Dungeon Keeper" was a selling point for a shitty cash-grab Tower Defense/simplified city builder and that fans of the series wouldn't (over) react to the blatant bullfuckery can't have two brain-cells to rub together. They could have named it anything else and they wouldn't have had the backlash.

The game still would have tanked because it's shitty shitty shitty and designed by people who hate video games and gamers, but at least it would have been instantly forgotten for what it was. But by labeling in Dungeon Keeper, all they did was give old fans with an axe to grind an outlet. Though I honestly wonder if this was a test to see if the "old hat" guys were so fucking jaded, they wouldn't have the energy to complain.

But reading about the development, it seems they honestly thought they were innovating and creating something worthwhile. EA would believe that because they are that creatively bankrupt as a company.

[NoXion]

The essentially cut-throat nature of capitalism means that this kind of bullshit will only become more frequent, especially as the "easily gulled casual gamer" market becomes increasingly saturated.

Remember, we're talking about the kind of amoral entities who would charge you for breathing if they thought they could get away with it.