Another free MMO suggestions thread

[TheFeniX]

Yes, every main class (the 8 standard, not advanced classes. Like, Jedi Knights split and go either Guardian (single-saber) or Sentinel (dual-sabers), but there is only a Jedi-Knight story) has their own story line they advance on their way to 50. You have to do it if you want to do endgame content. As part of this, there are also "Planet Quests" per each world that follow a set path. Also, side-quests. Planet and Side-quests are optional and when I was playing, you barely had to do any to outlevel a planet and move on. Like, the Story Quest + maybe half the planet quest had you moving on to the next area.

As said, the Jedi Knight story is KOTOR3. You are the captain of the galactic football team and the story-line facilitates that. Prepare to be the billy-badass who deals with a lot of over-the-top monologues with the trademark "WAAAAH JEDI!"

YMMV on this: The Jedi Knight and Empire mirror class (Guardians especially) is likely the highest skill-ceiling class in the game. But it is extremely rewarding to play. This is why I really don't want to go back. I had 28 binds and I still had to click med-packs and swap abilities into my rotation. I need more than two action bars to maximize my class. But when you get going, you are literally flying around the battlefield with force leap, Zealous Leap (if you've specced into it), and guardian leap and you feel like a badass. They were Hell on wheels in PvP too when I played. Early rankings had them just above Snipers, up until the playerbase figured them out. Then everyone was claiming we all had 31/31/31 builds and were tanks who could throw 7K crit Force Sweeps. Ah man, I miss the tears on the PvP forums.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Hmm, it sounds like I will enjoy sticking with Imperial Agent more than checking out Jedi or Sith. I'm already annoyed that I can't fit all my abilities onto one tab and I like how I can be evil without being cartoony, but more like a self-absorbed sociopath who does not value life (aka evil people in real life). It's impressive that a free-to-play game has so much story content of such high quality.

[TheFeniX]

Hmm, it sounds like I will enjoy sticking with Imperial Agent more than checking out Jedi or Sith. I'm already annoyed that I can't fit all my abilities onto one tab and I like how I can be evil without being cartoony, but more like a self-absorbed sociopath who does not value life (aka evil people in real life).

If you want to try Jedi Knight, Sentinel might be more your speed. Their burst DPS is what I would consider "insane." A viable tactic at early game is to run with your DPS pet (Kira Carson) and straight burn Story Bosses and you've got the DPS to do it if you keep up on gear. By the time you get Doc (your healer) you're speccing into the abilities which make them murder machines. They also require a lot less keybinds as the Tanking and other utility Guardians bring to the table is not needed.

They lack(ed) sustainability in longer engagements, even in PvE, but I used to run PvP matches with a Sent guildy. Normally, they get chewed up immediately before they could get more than 1 person down. But, I'd guard then peel for him with Guardian Leaps, and help lock down focus targets with leaps. The amount of hate we got was comical as he ripped through players 1-by-1 and could survive being focused by multiple players due to my Guardians utility. Some of the most fun PvP I've ever had.

Alternatively, you could roll a Trooper/Bounty Hunter and be a 4-button wrecking machine in both PvE and PvP. You really only die if you get lazy and pull too much.

It's impressive that a free-to-play game has so much story content of such high quality.

Well, the game wasn't designed to be F2P. They spent 100s of millions of dollars developing the storyline and voice-acting. The big problem was the game fell apart at 50. "Roll alts because we didn't spend any time or money on endgame" doesn't keep people paying $15 a month for your game.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

What Fenix is saying is mostly accurate, but I wanted to point out a few up-to-date clarifications as the game has changed significantly in some areas:

You unlock an out-of-combat sprint at 15 or so. T7 will likely be replaced by Kira as she is all around more useful and is voiced by Laura Bailey with all her trade-mark snark. You don't unlock your healer till late in the game, so you may be forced to run a straight DPS build, like vigilance or whatever Sentinals get because they have huge upfront damage abilities in their early 20s.

They completely overhauled and replaced the previous level up system. Abilities are gained in a totally new order and class balance doesn't even begin to resemble what it used to as a result. There's some new abilities, some removed, and some now get "upgraded" depending on spec. For example, Vigilance Guardians now get a "Vigilant Thrust" ability which is superior in every way to Force Sweep and on the same cooldown, thereby effectively replacing Force Sweep entirely if you're Vig spec.

So, the general level up experience of most of the classes is completely different now (and generally better in most cases). You get good abilities very early on, with some of the more niche abilities closer to level 50, and the new heavy duty fancy-schmancy abilities 51-60.

Does the story take you all the way to lvl 50? I'm enjoying the Imperial Agent arc (lvl 11 so far), but I don't know if it will grip me that long, and I'd like to check out Jedi Knight at some point, too.

Each class story has a prologue taking you through your starter planet and faction capital up to about level 16 or so, Chapter 1 takes you through the next 4 planets to about level 30, Chapter 2 takes you to 40, and Chapter 3 resolves at level 50 at/during your time on Corellia. The class stories then take a back seat to general faction/galaxy story, starting with level 50 Flashpoints and Operations, then going into Hutt Cartel content on Makeb through level 55, a series of Flashpoints introducing some new characters, and then the new 56-60 story on Rishi and Yavin 4 (which includes a brief interlude specific to your class).

Of course, you can switch characters and play other stories at any time. I still haven't completed most of the class stories because I jump around so many different alts. So, if you're tired of Agent, there's nothing stopping you from doing your Jedi Knight for awhile before going back to Agent.

Alternatively, you could roll a Trooper/Bounty Hunter and be a 4-button wrecking machine in both PvE and PvP. You really only die if you get lazy and pull too much.

Sadly, they (rightfully) nerfed Vanguard/Powertech several times. I was amazed at how ludicrously tough/destructive my Vanguard was in PvP for such a long time without anyone noticing. It's still a good class and I still like being Shield spec, but it doesn't have the disgusting damage output it used to.

[TheFeniX]

They completely overhauled and replaced the previous level up system. Abilities are gained in a totally new order and class balance doesn't even begin to resemble what it used to as a result. There's some new abilities, some removed, and some now get "upgraded" depending on spec. For example, Vigilance Guardians now get a "Vigilant Thrust" ability which is superior in every way to Force Sweep and on the same cooldown, thereby effectively replacing Force Sweep entirely if you're Vig spec.

That's good because speccing defense Guardian at release was an atrociously bad leveling experience as Jedi Knight. Juggernauts had it much easier since you got your healer very early on, like level 20, so you could just slow burn your way through the story, at least what I played. Also, the Defense tanking tree being flat-out broken (in a bad way) did not help one bit. Vig/Def was superior in every way.

Sadly, they (rightfully) nerfed Vanguard/Powertech several times. I was amazed at how ludicrously tough/destructive my Vanguard was in PvP for such a long time without anyone noticing. It's still a good class and I still like being Shield spec, but it doesn't have the disgusting damage output it used to.

Could be because everyone was crying about Seeker Missile/Grav Round spam and Vaguards were kind of forgotten about because Commandos were freaking everywhere. Anyone who knew anything knew Vanguards were absurdly powerful in PvP and PvE. But they weren't a burst class, outside of a few moments. I could line up enough burst windows to make it interesting though, and I was only level 30. They were a "slow and steady, I'll murder you all no matter how long it takes" class. But there also just weren't that many of them in PvP because everyone wants their big numbers, which Vanguards could put up, but not like Smash Bombers and other one-trick pony builds.

And don't get me started on how much better PvE tanks they were. If you had enough braincells to manage your resources, rather than just smash buttons, pfft....

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I don't know much about those classes, but Imperial Agent / Sniper seems to have some pretty high damage numbers. I start out with Ambush for 500-600 damage, then immediately follow up with poison dart for DoT, then Suppressive fire for another 650-700, which usually gets them below 30% so I can hit them with Takedown for another ~400. That's over 2K damage at level 12 in less than 10 seconds without even counting my companion. Maybe other classes can do that too, but it's about 4-5 times as much as I could pump out before I selected Sniper -> Marksmanship.

[TheFeniX]

Gauis knows better than I do about the current game, but Snipers had some of the best sustained DPS when I played, if not the best, in PvE when left alone. When forced to move, their DPS drops considerably. The Rancor fight was hell on our Sniper and our Sentinel could not only keep his DPS up for longer, he had much more burst (and some great defensives for a pure DPS class). On tank and spank fights, snipers most definitely pulled ahead, even without a recount programs, as we used to have "who could burn the mob the fastest" tests. If the Sniper could stay in cover, he'd win by a decent margin. They also lacked the heavier armor of the other turret class (Commando) and even Commandos had options for DPSing on the move.

NOTE: this information was garnered from players in my raid group as I never played either Sniper nor Commando. Our raid setup was 2 Guardian Tanks, 2 Consular Healers, 1 Sentinel, 1 Shadow, 1 Commando, and 1 Sniper. Honestly, I did so much damage as a Vig/Def hybrid OT, it's hard to count me as a tank, even though I was main taking after our other tank quit the game and we went to a 1 tank team, pugging our 8th slot, usually selling it because we could easily 7 man the highest tier of raid content with the exception of Soa Nightmare.

In PvP they were low on the ranking list for a few reasons. One was that a considerable portion of their damage was "white damage" which meant, as a Tank in DPS gear, I could effectively ignore them since my passive mitigation meant they did a pittance of damage to me, even if I couldn't leap to them while they were in cover. Two of them could shoot me all day and I could ignore them with no problems. "Yellow Damage" was the stuff you generally wanted in PvP as it was much harder for any class to mitigate it without active % damage reduction cooldowns. Left to their own devices, they would mow down your healers, except all said healer had to do was move out of range and/or Line-of-sight them.

Since many Battlegrounds also didn't have stationary points to set up shop, they spent a lot of time moving around trying to reposition. They weren't even effective as a point defense class because a single Shadow or Agent could stealth open on them, ignoring most all of their cover bonuses, and wreck them. Even when I quit, they were the worst spec for PvP and needed a serious revamp.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Snipers can be great in PvP. Yeah, sometimes you'll get a combination of a bad team with a ton of Ops/Scoundrels and Shadows/Assassins on the other team all with a hard-on for stealth-murdering you, but that sucks no matter what class you're playing. With decent teams on both sides a Sniper can do a lot. They've got one of the most spammable area attacks to keep objectives clear, and can absolutely demolish almost anyone at range. If you can get off Snipe/Ambush/Followthrough/Snipe/Takedown (roughly in that order) without being interrupted (which isn't hard, given you can pop Entrench and be immune to CC and interrupt), whatever your target is is basically guaranteed to die.

[biostem]

If this is too off-topic, please disregard it, but why do so many MMOs make having a means of quickly traveling around gated to such a degree? Is it just a matter of fast travel making the gameworld smaller, and thus cutting down on the feeling of being in a big imposing world, or is it just a way of stretching out the gameplay experience?

Taking the SWTOR example, Luke, some backwater farm boy, had his own speeder, yet you gotta pay to rent the things for fixed routes in SWTOR, until you unlock your own bike later, (I'm just using SWTOR as an example here - NW makes you wait till level 20 to get a mount, and most other MMOs don't start you off w/ any sort of on-demand fast travel where you are 100% in control).

Anyway, great feedback about this from everyone! Thanks!

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

A legacy holdover from MMOs' heritage as actual persistent worlds. I could get into a huge thing about the persistent world/sandbox model versus the themepark model, but the short version is that modern themepark MMOs like SWTOR and WoW are directly descended from Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and other MMOs of yesteryear where getting from point A to point B was a non-trivial task in and of itself. As a Level 1 Peasant in Cotswold Village and its environs, it would be madness to even think of journeying into the dangerous realms of Avalon Marsh! These were real worlds (or as "real" as video games circa 2000 were, anyway), and wandering off the beaten path was likely to get your Level 1 Peasant murdered by a Level 50 Goblin Supercommando; not because the game didn't necessarily want you to go there, but because that's just where Level 50 Goblin Supercommandos happen to live. The world was harsher and (despite the otherwise more primitive game mechanics) less gamey, and the availability of travel factored into that.

So we have these modern themepark MMOs still carrying a lot of baggage from yesteryear's persistent worlds. It's painfully lazy design, but in many cases they really have done nothing more than slap up-to-date or modern-feeling mechanics, useability, and gameplay philosophy onto 15-20 year old fundamental architecture. For the most part I enjoy SWTOR, but underneath the fancy stories and solid execution of the game in a more superficial sense are glaring reminders that way too many people in the MMO business are unwilling or unable to address the inherent stupidities of marrying the old MMO architecture with WoW-inspired design philosophy (WoW being particularly guilty of this, albeit perhaps less blameworthy on account of innovating many of those new philosophies in the first place).

[RogueIce]

For the most part I enjoy SWTOR, but underneath the fancy stories and solid execution of the game in a more superficial sense are glaring reminders that way too many people in the MMO business are unwilling or unable to address the inherent stupidities of marrying the old MMO architecture with WoW-inspired design philosophy (WoW being particularly guilty of this, albeit perhaps less blameworthy on account of innovating many of those new philosophies in the first place).

Another way SWTOR manifests this is with the Trooper class, or specifically what pissed me off most about it: the "armored shirt" you're forced to wear until somewhere around Taris IIRC (You got pieces of the Stormtrooper-esque armor on Coruscant, but not a full set until Taris, if I remember right). Here you are, member of the Republic's most elite commando squad, all of whom are rocking the badass armor...and you run around in a shirt and pants with some pads. Fucking NPCs got the armor, but not you. Even worse was when you pick up Jorgan as your companion, and that motherfucker gets the armor (as unique gear to him so you can't steal it) but you're still in a shirt and pants with slightly more padding.

It was maddening.

So how does this relate? Well, in your typical 'fantasy' MMO, starting off with the shitty armor makes sense. You're just a Level 1 nobody. Even chainmail is more than you can probably afford. The badass plate armor is way the fuck out of your reach. But as you adventure, gain fame and skill, and get richer and richer, well now you can afford the best of the best, and now that Legendary Dwarven Blacksmith will at least acknowledge your existence because your heroic deeds speak for themselves. So it made sense you had to 'earn' your Epic Shoulders of Physics Defying Glory.

But it didn't make sense in SWTOR where the fucking Republic should have issued you that armor a long time ago, or at least when they promoted you to leading said Elite Commando Squad instead of several game-hours later where you have to pick it up as you go. It was absurd. But that's the way WoW and the other MMOs did it, even though it failed to make sense in this context, so that's the way SWTOR did it.

[Elheru Aran]

Well, I made it to Coruscant. What do I do now? Suggestions? Recommendations? Level 9 Jedi...

[TheFeniX]

Did you get your advanced class? I think you have to be level 10 for it. You'll definitely want to do that ASAP, even if you have to do a few quests on Corsucant first, then go back to the fleet. That is unless things have changed in the past year or so. Pick up the Planet Quest and do those at the same time as your Class/Story quest. SWTOR is generally broken up into "zones" for a given planet. As you advance the quest, you'll move on to the next zone. So if your Story quest is taking you to another zone away from your Planet quest, you'll likely want to catch the Planet quest up to your Class quest and vice versa.

Other than that, your first flashpoint/dungeon should open up at level.... 11 I think. Most of the early dungeons are fun and offer gear well above and beyond what you would get from questing, aside from "Heroic" quests, which also (usually) require a group. Keep questing and/or doing PvP and fight for freedom from tyranny!

EDIT: I should add. When I played, the were "planet commendations" for doing certain quests. These can be redeemed at certain vendors for pretty slick gear, useful for filling out gaps in your gear. When last I played, as you are running towards the Corsucant capital building, cut a left and go underground instead. There's vendors spaced all-around (I think this is also where the class trainers are) and a vendor there will have a list of gear you can buy with planet commendations.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Yeah, make sure you're level 10.

The first FP (Esseles) is made available when you're going from fleet to Coruscant. I recommend it, but it's a group thing and some folks like to stay solo.

There is a group quest (a Heroic) on Tython which is actually very soloable once you have a companion, so if you're not 10 yet that's a good way to get there.

Once you're level 10 and have chosen your advanced class (Guardian or Sentinel for Jedi Knight. I recommend Guardian, it's a more versatile and useful class), you can continue on with Coruscant quests as normal. This should take you to level 16-18 where you will get your own ship and complete the prologue.

[RogueIce]

The first FP (Esseles) is made available when you're going from fleet to Coruscant. I recommend it, but it's a group thing and some folks like to stay solo.

Also, if it's anything like when I did it, a lot of people want to speed run it (mostly for the Social XP IIRC) which means skipping cutscenes and certain mobs, etc. So make sure you let the group know you're a newbie lest you be bombarded with "SPACEBARSPACEBARSPACEBAR" in every cutscene. Assuming you care about the cutscenes yourself.

Also don't do group content if you're anal about being "pure light/dark side" unless you confirm with said group to do a LS/DS only run. Because the choices are decided by the RNG, so you can wind up with points toward an alignment you may not care for.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Even if the group chooses a LS or DS choice, you still get only the points for your own personal choice. i.e. if you vote for a LS choice but someone else's DS vote gets chosen, you still get your LS points and do not gain any DS points even though you're doing the DS story path with your group.

[Simon_Jester]

An MMO that's going to start your character out half-naked and armed with a pointy stick (or the science fiction equivalent) really should tweak the plot justified this.

I think Star Trek: Online handled this adequately because your character starts out at low rank- as in, considerably below the rank of "captain-" and is not a member of any special super-elite organizations. Thus, it's at least plausible that they're flying an archaic clunker of a ship- and probably a refugee from some boneyard only pulled out because of the desperate multisided wars everyone's embroiled in.

This sort of parallels, say, Napoleonic Britain, where the command of random little dinky ships was routinely available to officers who would just be Junior Assistant Watchstander on a full-sized capital ship.

[TheFeniX]

From what I remember of STO, most of the command crew is killed during the borg attack and you're given command of the ship due to circumstances of "senior officer took over after everyone died, did ok for him/herself, let them keep the ship" even though you don't actually attain the rank of captain until near endgame. The Federation is in a bad way and basically needs anyone competent and willing to command a vessel.

Either way, FFXIV does a good job explaining this. You're a starting nobody that happens to have the Echo and it's only discovered later on and you join the Scions. Except, they can't exactly deck you out in awesome-sauce because their resources are limited (up until Assinaud shows up), and as a neutral agency they can't become too bound to any particular city-state. Too many donations might make them biased. Your loyalty to your grand-company is limited at best, you are still first and formost a Scion and the GCs make you earn your gear anyways.

This extends into a lot of the game. The guilds were basically made as a way to deal with the homeless population (not the best idea, but whatever), so joining them doesn't present you with awesome gear and fame just for showing up..... you get that because the player is just better than everyone else.

[RogueIce]

An MMO that's going to start your character out half-naked and armed with a pointy stick (or the science fiction equivalent) really should tweak the plot justified this.

I think Star Trek: Online handled this adequately because your character starts out at low rank- as in, considerably below the rank of "captain-" and is not a member of any special super-elite organizations. Thus, it's at least plausible that they're flying an archaic clunker of a ship- and probably a refugee from some boneyard only pulled out because of the desperate multisided wars everyone's embroiled in.

This sort of parallels, say, Napoleonic Britain, where the command of random little dinky ships was routinely available to officers who would just be Junior Assistant Watchstander on a full-sized capital ship.

Pretty much. It is a pretty archaic ship: a Miranda class in the year 2409. But then it was being used as a training vessel for graduating Starfleet cadets and was assigned to go to Vulcan, not exactly the stuff of heroes. But then, well, Shit Happened.

From what I remember of STO, most of the command crew is killed during the borg attack and you're given command of the ship due to circumstances of "senior officer took over after everyone died, did ok for him/herself, let them keep the ship" even though you don't actually attain the rank of captain until near endgame. The Federation is in a bad way and basically needs anyone competent and willing to command a vessel.

They completely redid it.

What happens now, as I said above, is you're a graduating Cadet going on their Final Training Cruise or whatever. Because you were already pretty awesomesauce with leadership and all that jazz, you were assigned as Acting First Officer.

But then you get a fake distress call and Suddenly Klingons. They board the ship, the Captain (and possibly whatever other officers were aboard) ends up dead and you basically take command because you have the position of AFO, and well, there's nobody else to do it. Kind of like what happened to the USS Valiant back during the Dominion War.

Except when fighting the Klingon ship that ambushed you, you get some backup in the form of a Sovereign class cruiser. And, in an interesting subversion, they do not just go, "Great job, the ship is yours!" In fact, it's pretty clear what the priority is: get this ship "commanded" by a Cadet and staffed by Cadets the fuck back to Earth Spacedock. They acknowledge your command insofar as it happened, but it seems like they only intend for it to last until you return to ESD and they get the situation sorted. This is reinforced because the Klingon ship that ambushed you, captained by the dude who attacked a Federation starship deep in Federation territory, and then boarded, kidnapped and murdered her Captain, is still out there. And when the PC points this out, the rescuing ship's CO basically says if he shows up again Starfleet will deal with him, but you and I are going back to Earth, right now.

I suppose this opens up a what-if on what would have happened had the rest of the tutorial not gone the way it did (spoilers: Borg attack, you demonstrate balls of fucking steel taking a ship full of Cadets up against the Borg and surviving so at that point they decide you pretty much deserve to command this ship). Would you still get a command of your own, or "merely" a juicy posting like Tactical Officer on a Defiant or whatever?

Anyway, that's a tangent. But yeah, I think STO justifies the ship thing nicely.

[Elheru Aran]

I did notice the weirdness of getting to select your character and he's all decked out in fancy gear... and then you start out in pajamas with a stick. They should make the character selection a little more bare-bones and be more direct about where you're starting-- "Hi Elheru, you're a Padawan. Great things are in store for you, but for now, take this stick and beat up the Flesh Raiders with it. Try not to get shot. Good luck!"

Is it me or are most of the vendor items overpriced for their level and value? You can get better in the drops and rewards... but then that sounds a lot like LOTRO again, so.

[TheFeniX]

They completely redid it.

Lame. I liked the intro quests. Out of any other MMO, it got me into the action immediately. Unlike SWTOR, which was boring. Hilarious considering Star Wars mastered the whole in media res bit decades ago: STO felt more like a Star Wars game than SWTOR.

I did notice the weirdness of getting to select your character and he's all decked out in fancy gear... and then you start out in pajamas with a stick. They should make the character selection a little more bare-bones and be more direct about where you're starting-- "Hi Elheru, you're a Padawan. Great things are in store for you, but for now, take this stick and beat up the Flesh Raiders with it. Try not to get shot. Good luck!"

To be fair, this is a popular way to get you on the gear run. You start out seeing what you will look like. WoW did it, FFXIV did it. But at least they showed you what you were starting out with. I don't recall SWTOR doing this. SWTOR was also shitty in that, the Jedi Battle Armor featured EVERYWHERE before release and even in the game was nothing more than a random world drop from specific mobs. And it wasn't until a few weeks before I quit you could pull armor mods out of gear, so it was worthless at endgame. That game desperately needed/needs a separate equip-set of gear that is visible like what Rift had. Hell, all MMOs need that. Transmog is a lazy gold dump.

Is it me or are most of the vendor items overpriced for their level and value? You can get better in the drops and rewards... but then that sounds a lot like LOTRO again, so.

They still are? Damn. Yea, the game is heavily gated behind credits. I spent most of my leveling money just buying skills. Riding took 3 days of grinding credits. If it's anything like when I played: grinding at/near level flashpoints is the way to go, but I leveled with 3 people: full party setup, 1 Tank, 1 Heals, 2 DPS. So we had it easy.

Before I quit, they also gutted the Flashpoint and PvP Money rewards: so grind on.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

They removed credit training costs entirely (which was the main money sink for leveling up). Training everything, including the ridiculously expensive speeder bikes is 100% free now.

And you could always swap mods in orange gear. It's just that a lot of gear wasn't orange back around launch, and at the time set bonuses didn't transfer for endgame gear that was orange. Now, most gear is orange/adaptive (meaning any class can wear it and it will turn into light/medium/heavy as appropriate), and set bonuses are tied to the mods, so you can wear basically anything. PvP looks hilarious sometimes, with Sith Warriors wearing Imperial uniforms, Troopers wearing Exar Kun's armor, and Agents in full Jedi Temple Guardian regalia.

[TheFeniX]

They removed credit training costs entirely (which was the main money sink for leveling up). Training everything, including the ridiculously expensive speeder bikes is 100% free now.

That's good. They had to do something with all the gimped credit earning. I had to funnel money from my main to my alts just to get them skills.

And you could always swap mods in orange gear. It's just that a lot of gear wasn't orange back around launch, and at the time set bonuses didn't transfer for endgame gear that was orange.

Pretty sure you couldn't swap armor mods on the PvP and PvE endgame stuff, that came later. I know some people were getting mileage out of farming PvP gear (both the armor itself and the mods) for use in PvE, but I can't remember if the expertise was tied to the armor mod or the secondary mods. I know if I had bothered to farm up to War Leader, I could have forewent begging Gharj to drop my BiS mods, of which I needed 4 and only ever got 1.