is WOTC trying to rip you off?

[Edi]

I'll just add here that anybody interested in DQ can contact me and I'll see what I can do to point them in the right direction.

Edi

[Steven Snyder]

I heard they are coming out with a 3.5 and eventually a 4 of D&D soon, so you'll have to buy whole new rulebooks, are they trying to make it like magic and other CCG's where you have to keep up and get the new cards when they come out, wonder if people will start pirating them online soon, actually they already do, but to a greater extent.

Why the hell would you 'pirate' them?

The damned SRD is online and you can freely look at the rules anytime from the internet that you want. You can even download them on to your computer so you have them at your fingertips.

When 3.5 is released, so will the SRD, meaning you can just download them too. The only reason to buy the books is if you want to support the company and get some flavor text to it.

So again, why would someone pirate rules that are available to the general public?

http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html

[Kelly Antilles]

eh*shrugs* I like 3rd edition... More mage friendly

More munchkin gamer friendly, you mean. I've had several high level mages. It's not the system, but how you play the character that matters.

[Kelly Antilles]

WotC is a ripoff outfit, pure and simple, but if they hadn't bought T$R out, there would be no D&D of any kind anymore. TSR had fucked up everything that can be fucked up, and they had done it so well the mess was nearly unsalvageable in the first place. 1st Edition AD&D was pretty nice, and a 2nd Edition modified with a lot of stuff from the 1st (i.e. the stuff they cut out) was better.

I know that. I hold AD&D 2nd close to my heart. It's easy to play and understand. I just wish TSR hadn't folded.

[Typhonis 1]

Isd there any word on star Frontiers being relased again?

[Baron Mordo]

Wizards was built on errata. Without a 3.5 edition, how else would they fix some things while similtaneously messing up others? It all goes back to the days of Magic:The Gathering, when they had to reword every card so people wouldn't find loopholes. Case in point: Ice Caldron. Does anybody know how it works? I mean, really?

[Slartibartfast]

Bah, I always pirate these things anyway. Then I zip them, rar them, ace them, split into dozens of smaller files which then get lost in my hard disk.

[Edi]

Isd there any word on star Frontiers being relased again?

Not that I know of, there was some talk of it being released as a campaign setting for Alternity when that was still alive and kicking, but it never got off the ground as far as I know.

With a little modification and house rules, Star Frontiers is one of the best sci-fi RPGs out there, easy to play, and compact too. The Knight Hawks rules (space ships and space combat) we rewrote almost completely, there's a few skeleton rules from the box set we use, the rest of them have been expanded on till you almost don't recognize them anymore, but they're quick and easy and they work.

Ah, the memory of rolling up my character, it still bruings a warm glow 13 years later... we just decided that what the hell, d100 for all stats and that's the score you get, instead of using the normal rules where 70 was max starter score, and the results were as follows:
STR/STA: 95
DEX/RS: 100 (The tens die came up 0 first, and I was sure I'd have to reroll, wishing I'd gotten the 95 for this one, when, lo and behold, the ones came up 0 too. The GM's expression was one I so wish I had on camera...)
INT/LOG: 72 (+5 bonus for human went here)
PER/LDR: 89
We later added a physical appearance score, which came up 80.

That character was something of a superhuman, considering that most normal folks have an average of 45 to 55 stats...

Edi

[Iceberg]

I heard they are coming out with a 3.5 and eventually a 4 of D&D soon, so you'll have to buy whole new rulebooks, are they trying to make it like magic and other CCG's where you have to keep up and get the new cards when they come out, wonder if people will start pirating them online soon, actually they already do, but to a greater extent.

OK:

1 - 3.5E is a major upgrade from 3E, from all visible signs. It actually probably should be called "4th Edition," because there are as many changes from 3E-3.5E as there were from AD&D Classic to AD&D 2nd Edition.

2 - It's been FOUR YEARS since the release of 3E. During that time, the rules have been adapted, expanded and altered. They've been clarified and balance changes have been made. Would you rather they go the 1st Edition "publish the changes in sourcebooks and force everybody to buy every sourcebook" route, or just publish three nice updated books with all the changes incorporated? I know which I prefer.

3 - The 3E cover art has *not* aged well.

4 - If you don't want to buy up to 3.5E, the changes will be going into the SRD, and you can download the relevant changes, for free, from wizards.com.

How exactly are they ripping you off, now? Keep in mind that nobody's FORCING you to buy the new books - new sourcebooks will be backwards compatible with extant d20 System rulebooks.

[Typhonis 1]

hmmm where are these rules for Star Frontiers at sounds interesting specially the Knight Hawks fluff (( need a skill of 6 in beam weapons just to learn ship beam weapons ???))

[Alyrium Denryle]

eh*shrugs* I like 3rd edition... More mage friendly

More munchkin gamer friendly, you mean. I've had several high level mages. It's not the system, but how you play the character that matters.

Now I dont usually do the uber muchkin thng... I know HOW, but dont usually..

I say it is more mage friendly, because you get bonus spells based in intelligence, and you have as little as 14 intelligene(if it is that low though, you sould pick another class if you want to survive) you will eventually be able to cast level 9 spells

[Kelly Antilles]

Now I dont usually do the uber muchkin thng... I know HOW, but dont usually..

I say it is more mage friendly, because you get bonus spells based in intelligence, and you have as little as 14 intelligene(if it is that low though, you sould pick another class if you want to survive) you will eventually be able to cast level 9 spells

Well, I do have to agree that the cleric spellcasting aability way for mages is nice. I just have only met munchkin playes who play d20. That's the main reason I despise it so.

[Steven Snyder]

Well, I do have to agree that the cleric spellcasting aability way for mages is nice. I just have only met munchkin playes who play d20. That's the main reason I despise it so.

I am sorry you have had a bad experience with D20.

When it came out I was an immediate convert, at last I had a nice, organized, orderly system that made sense. I didn't have to pull out a chart for my abilities, I didn't have to roll percentiles and then consult a chart for skills, I didn't have to wonder why a spell is easier to resist if it came from a wand or a caster, and I didn't have to work with a counter-intuitive THAC0 system.

I really don't see it as a munchkin system, and any system can be min-maxed to death. I use it because it is an elegant system that appeals to my lawful nature.

[Dargos]

2nd Edition rocked.
I still have my Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Unearthed Arcainia, Monster Manual 1 & 2, Fiend Folio, Gods Dieties and Demi-gods, Oriental Adventers, and a few mods. Against the Giants 1-3, Decent into the Depths of the Earth and Queen of the Demon Web pits. Sigh..brings back memories....(wipes a tear from an eye)

Hell I still have my very first adventure Mod from my very first Box set of Basic DnD "Keep on the Borderlands" That was back in the year of our lord 1977. (some pages missing but still a great hack and slash mod.

Granted they are gathering dust but they are all still in very good condition.

[Dargos]

Edit above post...1st Edition...not 2nd

[Solauren]

Can I point something out to everyone?

Why the hell is the system resource document, basically a abreviated copy of the players handbook, DMG, Monster Manual and Psionics Handbook, avialable, for FREE if they are trying to milk you people?

Sure, the SRD is not as functional as the books, but you don't need the books if you have the SRD. I plan to, once I get the new rules (at the very least, so i have a frame of reference for backwards converting), and then download a copy of both the 3.0 and 3.5 SRD onto my laptop.

Also, they are releasing a FREE backwards compatiablity guide.

Please notice the FREE.

As far as I can tell (and I'll know for sure by Monday, as I have a copy of the 3.5 books on order that will arrive Friday at my gaming store.) conversion will be easy, as well reinserting stuff you like of 3.0 that they drop in 3.5

Also, remember, the rules are very modular. For example, I could decide that on my campaign work, all classes are favoured for humans, all spellcasting are favoured by elves, all combat by dwarves, etc, and the rules will still hand it nicely.

Stop complaining until you see the rules. This is as bas as when the D20 system came out, and it's been great. I have access to some much customization stuff I could make a character without even going near the classes and feats in the PHBK.

[Eleas]

I heard they are coming out with a 3.5 and eventually a 4 of D&D soon, so you'll have to buy whole new rulebooks, are they trying to make it like magic and other CCG's where you have to keep up and get the new cards when they come out, wonder if people will start pirating them online soon, actually they already do, but to a greater extent.

Obviously, they are indeed ripping people off. The solution to the problem is rather simple though - buy better games. In other words, about any other RPG on the market.

Why the hell is the system resource document, basically a abreviated copy of the players handbook, DMG, Monster Manual and Psionics Handbook, avialable, for FREE if they are trying to milk you people?

For the same reason Microsoft shipped all PCs with DOS back in the day. Purely out of the goodness of their hearts, in other words.

Also, remember, the rules are very modular. For example, I could decide that on my campaign work, all classes are favoured for humans, all spellcasting are favoured by elves, all combat by dwarves, etc, and the rules will still hand it nicely.

If that's your definition of modular... well, I find myself lacking the words to formulate a coherent analogy, but rest assured it would have been biting.

Stop complaining until you see the rules. This is as bas as when the D20 system came out, and it's been great. I have access to some much customization stuff I could make a character without even going near the classes and feats in the PHBK.

I saw d20 in the new Star Wars. Four worlds: Blight. Upon. The. Land.

[Eleas]

Dammit... I jumped into the thread in far too bad a mood. Sorry about this, guys. My opinions stand as my own, but I made them into an attack rather than a statement. This was excessive, and I apologize.

I still think, as a RPG designer and a longtime GM and player, that the d20 system is the most active barrier to true roleplaying on the market. I have my reasons. But cramming that down your throats in a borderline thread hijacking was stupid.

[Steven Snyder]

Can I point something out to everyone?

The fanatical legions of 3rd edition haters will not hear your arguments. I tried to tell them this earlier...

[Solauren]

heheheheh.

True about the legions

Problem is, some people hate change to the point even seeing they hate it would be change, and therefore do not see it.

I mean, I know people that bought a 286 computer with dos, and refuse to upgrade it thinking that all the computer stuff on the market was cheap and ready to make years ago, but they released 'new' components slowly to rip people off.


It also comes down to preference.

I know people that started out playing Rifts and refuse to play anything else, or even (good help us all) TMNT. With the above two examples, if they are not that specific genre, they will not play them, even though they are made by the same publisher and are fully intergratable (or 90% intergratable)

Here's my final to all the people out there that complain about stuff

It's a game. Get a brain cell.

You don't want to covert an adventure? Poor baby! Have you ever heard of 'on the fly?' just find a monster that is close to the one in the adventure, and sub it in.

You don't want to spend the money? That's legitamate, and I applaud that. It's your choice and I respect that.

You don't like the company? Again your choice, but if it's just for there business policy, don't bash, just don't support them.

I hope you'll at least admit something

WOTC is doing a much better job supporting D&D then TSR did. Granted, WOTC has the internet, but can you see the people that ran TSR into the ground giving so much free support on the Internet? Go check out the WOTC website and look under DND and check out the equal of a free sourcebook or more online