Gamer's Manifesto: Thanks Ace Pace!

[Drooling Iguana]

Good to see someone else hating the insta-fail stealth levels in action games. This is the sole reason I never got to replaying Jedi Outcast. That stupid level with the Alarm buttons of doom.

Seconded. I had to cheat my way past the 'Forest' level in RtCW just to continue playing. Seriously, why do they do that!?

They've been doing stuff like that for decades. Remember ice levels in side-scrollers? Were any of those ever fun? Yet there was at least one of them in pretty much every game ever made from 1987 to 1996. Developers somehow just get it in their heads that there's certain "features" that every game must have, even though none of us actually want them.

[Uraniun235]

I found the ice level in Super Mario 2 to be rather fun.

I don't mind failing when you break stealth, but it should be in a fun way; instead of just fading out with "lol you lose" they should just start sending hordes of enemies at you. Yeah, maybe you'll manage to fight your way past them, or maybe you'll just get shot up by a few dozen guys.

EDIT: After reading the article...

It's the same cookie-cutter "wahh fuck evolution, we want revolutionary games every time we go to the store, I will never be satisfied bullshit" rant that a lot of people make. Look, to be quite blunt, it's the same damn thing as crying about how every story is the same because there's only a couple of hundred unique plot lines in existence. Nobody cares, and it doesn't diminish from the experience; we get our jollies from the execution of the story.

Along the same lines, there are only so many game types to be had, and this is especially limited by hardware and programming limitations; yeah, a recreation of the entire world would be pretty sweet, but who the fuck's going to program it, and who's going to have the hardware to make it work well?

Video games must be an art form by now, because we clearly have no shortage of intelligentsia bullshitters telling us everything we enjoy is mindless drivel and that only the most cutting-edge abstract games are any good.

Here's my take on the Manifesto:

1. A.I. sucks wahh why don't they make it better?

Oh, gee, and that couldn't possibly be restricted by hardware and programming limitations.

4. Walmart is evil!



Who the hell would go to Walmart to buy a game with prominently featured nipples? That's like going to Walmart looking to buy hardcore pornography or sex toys.

5. Women are ignored by the publishers! (OR; my girlfriend made me put this in here!)

This point has been addressed earlier in the thread.

6. Quicksave couldn't possibly be viewed as a gameplay feature!

Oh yes it could. And clearly there are developers who see it as such.

7. I want instant gratification! Hardware is so advanced that loading is total bullshit! Obviously it's just money-grubbing copy protection schemes!



8. John Madden wahh

So... with a limited amount of RAM... you want to be able to have a huge library of Madden commentary sounds... but you don't want any loading time so that precludes copying it all out to the hard drive when you start the game...

Fuck you.

9, 10, 11 - OMG immersion ++good

...but you just bitched earlier about how huge worlds would require huge budgets to develop and stifle creativity...

Fuck you.

12. Artificial difficulty

I actually agree with the Instafail stealth levels (only insofar as that "fade to black, lol game over" is lame; I don't have a problem with the game throwing more guys at you than you can handle.), and the speed cheating.

The rest... well, the RPG bitching just shows that this guy's playing the wrong games.

As for the FPS bitching - what, mazes are suddenly no longer fun?

14. lol crates are dumb and watch me make an invalid comparison between FPS level design and Katamari Damacy

Gee, and yet you can suggest nothing better.

15. Patents are evil...

This is not a games industry issue. This is a United States law issue. For fuck sake, just because it's a manifesto doesn't mean you have to ramble on about every damn thing that pisses you off. Stay on the fucking topic and keep it relevent.

...licenses are evil...

I don't see how this is anything but good for EA. Oh wait, capitalism is evil! D'oh!

... and crappy knockoffs are evil, and people will someday stop buying them.

Someone apparently does not see how much money Hollywood makes on pumping out bullshit by the metric fuckton.

16. omg if they patch my console games I'm so returning my console and swearing off games.

OH SHIT INTERNET TOUGH GUY WATCH OUT

...oh, wait, except you won't, because you like the sweet sweet gaming too much to let it go, and because you haven't already in protest of the fact that Xbox games have already been patched.



17. consoles are better am i rite?

Speak for yourself.

18. wahh the rich kids always had the cool toys it isn't fair

Cry me a fucking river.

19. I hate jumping puzzles in FPS games

Cry me a fucking river.

20. lol vertical consoles lol am i rite

I can't tell if he's trying to be sarcastic or what's going on. But I thought choice was a good thing...

I didn't find it a particularly good read.

[Silver Paladin]

1. A.I. sucks wahh why don't they make it better?

Oh, gee, and that couldn't possibly be restricted by hardware and programming limitations.

The PS3 is supposed to be running at 2 TFlops.

Now according to http://www.hoise.com/primeur/00/article ... 00-41.html, the 12.3 TFLOP ASCI White by IBM is 1000X more powerful than the Deep Blue that beat Gary Kasparov. If that is an accurate statement, then Deep Blue runs at a measly 12.3 Gigaflops, or 162X less powerful than the PS3. Of course that's not accurate, and if I had a straight number for Deep Blue, it would definitely make my point more clear.

How much you wanna bet the games for the PS3 won't have a AI that comes remotely close to Deep Blue despite the huge operation/second advantage the PS3 has over Deep Blue?

The problem isn't AI being restricted by programming limitations or hardware. The problem is developers wanting that 5000 poly model instead of the 2500 poly model and the crazy physics engine that can draw every shrapnel off a grenade instead of a AI that can do something else besides the "run at you in a Chinese Army Swarm" tactic.

And you know why? "Good AI" isn't a byline that will get you a platinum title. People want breasts that are 500 polys each and have the correct Havok physics engine bounce with every step they take. You can sell that in a screenshot. You can't sell "enemy will make strategic use of the smoke bomb in his inventory to order his second squad to flank you while calling in artillery support to cut off your retreat".

THAT my friend is the problem. That and a senior AI programmer will probably draw in the neighborhood for 300K a year while you can find get modellers on a "buy 1 get 1 free" sale.

[Praxis]

1. A.I. sucks wahh why don't they make it better?

Oh, gee, and that couldn't possibly be restricted by hardware and programming limitations.

The PS3 is supposed to be running at 2 TFlops.

Now according to http://www.hoise.com/primeur/00/article ... 00-41.html, the 12.3 TFLOP ASCI White by IBM is 1000X more powerful than the Deep Blue that beat Gary Kasparov. If that is an accurate statement, then Deep Blue runs at a measly 12.3 Gigaflops, or 162X less powerful than the PS3. Of course that's not accurate, and if I had a straight number for Deep Blue, it would definitely make my point more clear.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry bud, you've just been a victim of the Sony Hype Machine (tm).

In fact, 1.8 of those 2 teraflops are the GRAPHICS CARD. The actual processor is only 200 gigaflops, and that is the theoretical maximum (the 12.3 TFLOP figure for ASCI White is real world performance) which is WAY more than real world, *AND* its the floating point score of a processor with 8 subprocessors designed for the SOLE PURPOSE of doing floating point calculations. If you check what the PS3 does in terms if integer calculations its pretty dang bad.

Cell = great in floating point, terrible in integer, and when only floating point scores are cited it seems insane.

2 teraflops in the PS3 includes the graphics card which is hyperoptimized for the type of work it does.

[Uraniun235]

The PS3 is supposed to be running at 2 TFlops.

First, I'm not inclined to believe or care about marketroid wank numbers. Holy shit 2 teraflops! That must mean something!

Second, Deep Blue does one thing and one thing only; it plays chess. A whole team of people worked night and day for a long time for Deep Blue to play chess really well. And just because you can make a shit-hot chess AI doesn't mean you can turn around and make an "omg hot" FPS AI that can tactically out think you; IIRC, there are still games for which nobody has figured out how to code a decent AI for yet. (I think Go is one of them.)

And you know why? "Good AI" isn't a byline that will get you a platinum title.

O RLY?

Friend, you obviously do not remember the ads and reviews for Half-Life, which boasted of the "advanced" AI that the enemies used. Only, it wasn't really an elaborate AI, it was just a cleverly put together set of scripted actions that the enemies could use that looked like AI; they still operate by predictable patterns that can be taken advantage of.

You can sell it to the gamers. (You just can't sell it to management, which I'll concede to you.)

Also, like it or not, AI takes up CPU power, and despite what the self-masturbatory article author would like you to believe, there is a finite amount of processor power to contend with; the more complex the AI, the fewer enemies you can have on screen. Personally I'd rather be contending with sixteen well-scripted but effectively dumb opponents than with three hyper-intelligent opponents, but that's just me and my "let's mow shit down" tastes at work there.

Developers don't shun AI in favor of graphics purely because of "omg it's shiny"; they go for graphics because they know how to improve on graphics and they know they'll get bang for their buck when investing development hours into the graphics engine. AI is a much more nebulous and difficult area.

ALSO, thanks for pointing out another fucking conflict; this guy's pushing for greater immersion, and yet at the same time wants shit-hot AI which is going to (surprise!) suck up yet more CPU cycles. This asshat needs, above all else, to figure out his priorities.

e:f,b

[Silver Paladin]

That's what I was really getting at. AI sucks not because of programming/hardware limitations, but because of a conscious business decision by the devs and publishers to neglect AI in favor of superior physics/graphics.

I definitely there are certain games that can benefit from an increased AI. Obviously FPSes aren't really in this category, since a generic "crouch behind a crate" AI will work in 90% of the situations.

However, I would love to see a RTS/TBS that can use adaptive strategies to play against a player rather than falling into pre-scripted commands. You can definitely tell that most of the AIs in RTSes are pre-scripted; they have a very solid early game strategy as if they were following a build order (and they are), but as the game develops, they don't expand at the right time, they don't countertech the player, they don't hit and fade at expansions, etc.

I would LOVE to see a fighting game where the computer adjusts to you. Tekken 5 somewhat has that in they have fighting styles mimic'd off of real players, but they are still "anti-AI" moves you can do to counter them. MvC2 is ridiculously easy if you have a chip/trap strategy going because the AI can't adapt to the simple patterns of a Sentinel/Spiral sword trap

Same thing with sports games; there are "money plays" in every Madden made; once you find it, you can definitely abuse it for all it's worth. I would love to think after running the same strongside outside toss play for the first 6 plays, the AI would do something; maybe bring a lineback out strongside or pull up the strong safety to stuff the runner at the line of scrimmage.

For those games, I would definitely be willing to sacrifice graphical superiority for superior AI. Let's be honest, Tekken 5 looks pretty damned good; I don't think there's much more they can do to it graphically. Take some of the PS3 power and apply it to the AI, and I'll be a happy camper.

[HemlockGrey]

Despite some of the bitchy whining going on in this thread, I couldn't really disagree with the article. I'm not seeing how anyone could possibly make the argument that none of those changes would be improvements. Maybe not feasible, but they certainly would be improvements.

[Vendetta]

Quicksave anywhere isn't always an improvement.

Max Payne is a perfect example of why this is, it encourages lazy game and level design on the basis that people can quicksave before an encounter and keep reloading until it comes out the way they want.

A balance needs to be struck between saving so that you can go do something else and not being reduced to reload and hope.

[McNum]

I don't mind failing when you break stealth, but it should be in a fun way; instead of just fading out with "lol you lose" they should just start sending hordes of enemies at you. Yeah, maybe you'll manage to fight your way past them, or maybe you'll just get shot up by a few dozen guys.

This is exactly why I pick out Jedi Oucast for an example. I mean I just killed over half the Stormtroopers stationed in the base. Why exactly should I fear the other half? So the alarm goes off and troops come running. Good. Saves me the time to go looking.

But no... Alarm = Game Over. Just doesn't make sense. I mean getting Luke killed I can see the reason for a Game Over. But this one is just a weak excuse.

[Uraniun235]

I would love to think after running the same strongside outside toss play for the first 6 plays, the AI would do something; maybe bring a lineback out strongside or pull up the strong safety to stuff the runner at the line of scrimmage.

This right here is the problem; computers do not have initiative. They can only do what they're programmed to do. I really think you're underestimating the difficulty of programming (and implementing) a powerful game AI.

Despite some of the bitchy whining going on in this thread, I couldn't really disagree with the article.

The problem is that the article is itself bitchy whining, mostly because the asshat who wrote it often doesn't know what he's talking about. It's like some shithead complaining about how nice it would be if those Detroit fat cats would get off their asses and finally make us an ultra-high-performance sports car that will get the gas mileage of his four-cylinder hybrid econobox, the traction of a pickup truck, and fellates/cunnelates you at every stop light. Yeah, that would be nice, but it's not happening any time soon, and it's not because of those Detroit fat cats.

[SAMAS]

Quicksave anywhere isn't always an improvement.

Max Payne is a perfect example of why this is, it encourages lazy game and level design on the basis that people can quicksave before an encounter and keep reloading until it comes out the way they want.

A balance needs to be struck between saving so that you can go do something else and not being reduced to reload and hope.

I think God of War struck a good balance between the two. It had save points, but at the same time used a Checkpoint system that was generally set up to put you right back before the point you got yourself killed.

[Hobot]

I saw this on Slashdot a few days ago and I found this comment by a game developer to be an interesting response:

A game developer's response... (Score:5, Insightful)
by daVinci1980 (73174) on Monday May 30, @12:33PM (#12676998)
(http://www.lexical-ambiguity.com/)
(I've developed several titles, including the top selling PC game a few years ago. And no, not the Sims.)

1. Give us A.I. that will actually outsmart us now and then.
Actually, this is the point of the cell processor. The cell is meant to allow lots of pipelined tasks to happen with little additional overhead. This means that the difference between a "simple" AI and a complex "AI" (in terms of performance) is little different. And the cell is actually seperate from the RSX, which is the graphics chip from NVIDIA.

2. Give us a genre of game we've never seen before. Something that's not an FPS or an RPG or Madden NFL or...

The fallacy of this statement is laughable. Games don't simply exist. The reason that a particlar game genre is produced again and again is become you asshats keep buying them. Again and again and again. Want more games like Katamari Damacy? Then buy the game. No, pirating a copy doesn't count. Want games of alternative genres? They're out there. They're just not advertised and they're not always available at your local Best Buy. They will often be at your smaller game store, or available online. So get off your lazy ass and go vote with your dollars.

3. Don't bullshit me about your graphics
We wouldn't have to, except that by the logic in argument 2 this seems to be the #1 thing that people care about. You vote with your dollars. Your mouth is saying "graphics don't matter" but your wallet says "grapihcs are all that I care about. Shit in the box as long as the graphics are top notch." Doom 3, Unreal 3, Half-life 2... All top sellers because of their stellar unrelated gameplay?

4. Nipples?
5. And on the opposite side of the nipple coin...
A game these day costs in the tens of millions of dollars to release. A company is simply not going to risk that kind of green (and possibly the fate of the company) on an analyst's hunch. There has to be something more than a gut feeling to release that kind of game. I mean, when's the last time you bought a Japanese dating simulation? (NSFW) [jlist.com]

6. All of the new consoles will have hard drives. Use them.
Agree.

7. Loading...
As soon as you come up with a mechanism to physically get 16 megs of data off a DVD rom faster than 1 second, I'll be all over improving load times. It's truly staggering how much data has to be loaded from disk and how frequently it has to be done. On the PC, fire up ye old task manager sometime and turn on the I/O stats for the process. Then be shocked as your game loads multiple gigs of data from disk over the run of the game. All in the name of that "immersion" you're looking for.

8. I understand that John Madden was raised by wild boars...
This hooks in with #7. Bottom line, consider the requirements of this. It's a simple M*N cost to have more sounds. (M events by N events per sound, assuming a flat distribution of sounds). Of course, one could argue (successfully) that an increase in all sounds isn't necessary, and just in the sounds that come up again and again. Of course, you could also forsake the Madden franchise in favor of a lesser known football series. (This would also have the side benefit of ceasing to support the EA cartel.)

9. Immersion and the invisible hand of God
Agree. This is generally just laziness (or a very tight schedule).

10. And while we're at it...
I sort of agree here, but I see the other side of the coin as well. I mean, if I let you get to areas that aren't important for gameplay, then I need to populate them with content. You also might become lost and frustrated, which is something I don't want to happen either.

11. And while we're still at it...
I agree, with the caveat that this is a genre-specific complaint. For example, I don't mind health bars imposed in an RTS, because I realize it's just a game that I'm playing. On the other hand, having numerous health bars on the screen in an MMO is quite the immersion breaker.

12. Don't bullshit us on the difficulty
13. Don't bullshit us on the game's features
14. Seriously, get rid of the crates
Agree.

15. Stop the Short-Sighted Business Bullshit
Agree and disagree. I agree that frivolous or baseless patents are not good for the game industry. But if a company comes up with something truly revolutionary, I think that they should get to reap some reward from that (I know, /. blasphemy). On the other hand, the exclusive deals that EA has inked with football is utterly deplorable and should be called what it is: a monopoly tactic. But the solution is an easy one. Don't buy and Madden games. Simply boycott, and make the entire 42 million dollar investment a complete loss. Stick it to the man.

16. Don't use the online capability as an excuse to release broken games
I agree, but then don't be upset every time the game you've been waiting for is delayed another couple of months. Do you think we actually sit around and play games all day? We don't. We have crunch times that would make most people shudder and run for mommy. We're professionals and we're trying to deliver a quality product in a ridiculuously short time line. You try to go from 0 to a man on the moon in 18 months and see how easy it is.

17. Don't let other features distract from gaming
Agree. I can already play DVDs on my toaster, I don't need yet another machine to do that.

18. Don't use online play as an excuse to bleed us dry
I agree and disagree, depending on execution. The idea of the episodic content (as it was pitched to me, anyways), was that the episodic content would be sold at a substantial decrease to the cost of a single game. So for example, you might have a game with 10 2-hour long episodes, each of which sells for $10-20. Wouldn't this really be preferable if they were released every 3 months or so?

19. NO MORE JUMPING PUZZLES IN FPS GAMES
I'll take this one step further and argue that jumping puzzles aren't fun *anywhere*.

---

The bottom line from a game developer's standpoint is that we're not satisfied with the state of the industry in a lot of ways either. I don't want to have to work on a commercial blockbuster in order to get anyone to actually play my games. But based on all of the successful games in today's market, it's obvious that graphics *are* actually the dominant factor in determining what game you're going to spend your hard earned dough on. Because of the burden this places on the artwork, this necessitates a $25M+ budget for a title to have a hope of being truly successful. As soon as people stop rushing out to by the next Halo or the next Half-life or the next Doom, or Quake (or Unreal), (or a game based on one of those engines), then I'll have a little more faith that I can make a game with a more modest and reasonable budget that will be successful.

So as long as you continue to buy crap in a box, I will continue have a diet high in fiber.

[SAMAS]

1. A.I. sucks wahh why don't they make it better?

Oh, gee, and that couldn't possibly be restricted by hardware and programming limitations.

I actually see his point. As cool as the graphics look, I think they're going to hit a wall in this next generation. I've found myself becoming less and less impressed with graphics in games with the exception of scenes that are made to look cool. Like for this one scene for a PS3 FPS-style game, I was more impressed by the part where the "player" shoots the glass bridge out from under two guys than in anything else they showed for it.

IOW: I don't care that much how pretty it is anymore, show me what you can do with it!

7. I want instant gratification! Hardware is so advanced that loading is total bullshit! Obviously it's just money-grubbing copy protection schemes!

Seriously, it's starting to get less and less. You can count the number of load pauses in some games like God of War on one hand.

8. John Madden wahh

So... with a limited amount of RAM... you want to be able to have a huge library of Madden commentary sounds... but you don't want any loading time so that precludes copying it all out to the hard drive when you start the game...

Fuck you.

He's not talking about start-time loads, he means in-game.

And yes, a small number of repeated phrases is annoying to everybody.

9, 10, 11 - OMG immersion ++good

...but you just bitched earlier about how huge worlds would require huge budgets to develop and stifle creativity...

Fuck you.

Note he wasn't talking about huge levels. He means all those small, sudden halts to gameplay that take you out of the experiencs, such as invisible walls and other obviously artificial barriers that just scream out "YOU CAN"T GO HERE IN THIS GAME!!".

The Athens levels in God of War are a good example of how to get around that. Shattered bridges, debris barriers, and collapsed tunnels cut off the off-limits areas as effectively as an invisible wall, but at the same time, they don't feel artificial.

IOW: If you don't want somebody to go somewhere, don't make it look like they can/should.

12. Artificial difficulty

I actually agree with the Instafail stealth levels (only insofar as that "fade to black, lol game over" is lame; I don't have a problem with the game throwing more guys at you than you can handle.), and the speed cheating.

The rest... well, the RPG bitching just shows that this guy's playing the wrong games.

As for the FPS bitching - what, mazes are suddenly no longer fun?

Ever read a review of the Metroid Prime games?

14. lol crates are dumb and watch me make an invalid comparison between FPS level design and Katamari Damacy

Gee, and yet you can suggest nothing better.

No, he's got a point there. FPS games are starting to look all the same. As pretty as Half-Life 2 may be, as good as it's storyline or gameplay may be, I saw that scenery a hundred games ago. And let's nto forget the double-wide assload of WWII FPS games that have come out in the past three or four years. Could you tell them apart without playing them? Or even after that?

The few times I feel the need to get an FPS fix, I usually pick up my copy of Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal. Unlike 90% of the true FPS games out there, it actually has an original personality.

15. Patents are evil...

This is not a games industry issue. This is a United States law issue. For fuck sake, just because it's a manifesto doesn't mean you have to ramble on about every damn thing that pisses you off. Stay on the fucking topic and keep it relevent.

All the same, it's effecting the industry. So it's on-topic.

...licenses are evil...

I don't see how this is anything but good for EA. Oh wait, capitalism is evil! D'oh!

For EA? Sure. The NFL? Remains to be seen. Everbody else? He has his doubts.

... and crappy knockoffs are evil, and people will someday stop buying them.

Someone apparently does not see how much money Hollywood makes on pumping out bullshit by the metric fuckton.

...and?

16. omg if they patch my console games I'm so returning my console and swearing off games.

OH SHIT INTERNET TOUGH GUY WATCH OUT

...oh, wait, except you won't, because you like the sweet sweet gaming too much to let it go, and because you haven't already in protest of the fact that Xbox games have already been patched.

He's got a point there, though. Even now, few console games need patches the way PC games have. Makers had to do a lot more testing to make sure they got it right(if not at least somewhat good) because they only had one shot at it.

17. consoles are better am i rite?

Speak for yourself.

Again, you missed the point. You buy a console for one reason, more often than not(the PS2 in Japan was a special case): The games. And most people already have a PC for all the other stuff Microsoft wants the 360 to be.

18. wahh the rich kids always had the cool toys it isn't fair

Cry me a fucking river.

Fine then. You go ahead and pay 120 bucks for a game. I'll stick with the usual 40-50$, thank you very much.

19. I hate jumping puzzles in FPS games

Cry me a fucking river.

Oh shut up. If the guy doesn't like it, he doesn't like it.

[Silver Paladin]

I would love to think after running the same strongside outside toss play for the first 6 plays, the AI would do something; maybe bring a lineback out strongside or pull up the strong safety to stuff the runner at the line of scrimmage.

This right here is the problem; computers do not have initiative. They can only do what they're programmed to do. I really think you're underestimating the difficulty of programming (and implementing) a powerful game AI.

The problem here can be solved without powerful AI especially since it's reactionary rather that the computer showing initiative. For example, Madden runs a profile. It would be very easy to keep a database of the plays I call on certain situations. For example, 90% of the time, I call a outside run on first and 10. I would say I run 80% of the time on 2nd and 5, and on 3rd and short, I playaction about 80% of the time. You can keep track of this data and have the computer adjust. For example, on first down, bring in 4 lineman and 4 linebackers. This isn't even AI, so much as just having a solid statistics engine.

The same can be said for a fighting game. For example, I almost always (>95%) begin an attack pattern with a dashing crouching short kick. A good player will see that dash and immediately block low. I'll get the computer 50% of the time as he guesses high/low on what seems like a random basis.

With RTSes, it's a little more difficult since there is a lot more factors involved. What I would LOVE to see is an RTS that passes my "Tower of Doom Test". Basically I build enough towers around my base such that a normal attack is doomed to fail. Then I see if the AI is stupid enough to attack without siege units. I have yet to meet an RTS that doesn't try to slam it's units against your towers on a consistant basis without siege support. Occasionally they get lucky and get out a catapult, but that's the exception not the rule.

It's little things like that which don't really require AI to implement; (if tower >= 5); construct catapults.

I can forgive some of the more complex decisions like when to expand since even good players have problems with that, but simple decisions like building counter units when appropriate (Calvary against a archer masser, Siege versus towers, etc.) is a very basic logic puzzle the computer should be able to deal with.

And especially with patches, I would love to see them patch in "build orders" from the top players. But that's a whole other story.

[Vendetta]

Again, you missed the point. You buy a console for one reason, more often than not(the PS2 in Japan was a special case): The games. And most people already have a PC for all the other stuff Microsoft wants the 360 to be.

True, but PCs have a shorter upgrade cycle than consoles, and for a fair number of light PC users they have a good chance of being able to hook them into buying an Xbox for $300 instead of a dog end PC for $500, because it does all their low end web use and personal communication and also plays games better than a $500 PC can dream of.

[Uraniun235]

Seriously, it's starting to get less and less. You can count the number of load pauses in some games like God of War on one hand.

Yeah, but his argument is total bullshit. "OMG my old NES didn't have this loading crap!"

Also, some games are better suited for less hits on the disk than others.

He's not talking about start-time loads, he means in-game.

How are those voices going to be played in-game? Gee, they're going to have to be... loaded at some point! And when will that loading occur? Maybe... while you're loading the rest of that media? Hmm, maybe all that data will add up, and the system won't be able to do it all instantly. Maybe that'll contribute to... waiting for the game to load!

The very thing he was bitching about earlier!

No, he's got a point there. FPS games are starting to look all the same. As pretty as Half-Life 2 may be, as good as it's storyline or gameplay may be, I saw that scenery a hundred games ago. And let's nto forget the double-wide assload of WWII FPS games that have come out in the past three or four years. Could you tell them apart without playing them? Or even after that?

The few times I feel the need to get an FPS fix, I usually pick up my copy of Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal. Unlike 90% of the true FPS games out there, it actually has an original personality.

Except... there's a limited number of environments with regard to FPS games. You've got spaceships, urban environments, the outdoors, alien planetscapes, the military base, sewers... have I missed anything? Is there anywhere else to go?

Look, maybe not now, but eventually we're going to hit the same wall that fiction has; there are only a couple hundred unique plots in existence. Everything beyond that is a reiteration with different characters, settings, and other details.

Similarly, there are only so many places you can go with an FPS. Personally, I like playing through the same concept with different details, if the details are done right; this is why I could enjoy playing through Return to Castle Wolfenstein and also enjoy playing Call of Duty multiplayer and Battlefield 1942 multiplayer.

The genre is not going to be suddenly destroyed once we hit the wall of "we've been everywhere".

Ever read a review of the Metroid Prime games?

I know they're pretty well-regarded. I haven't actually played through any of them.

I don't see the problem he's bitching about because I actually have a memory and a sense of direction.

All the same, it's effecting the industry. So it's on-topic.

But the industry can't do anything about it. Please tell me how id or Valve or EA is going to do anything about this.

This is just more bitching.

For EA? Sure. The NFL? Remains to be seen. Everbody else? He has his doubts.

When did I mention "everyone else"? I said it was going to be good for EA. The NFL has the right to determine who may use it's name and intellectual property (logos, etc.) for profit. EA has the right to sign contracts with the NFL and vice versa.

Should we change this so that trademarks and copyrights are no longer valid? Should I be allowed to stamp the NFL logo on some trashy hardcore pornography I made in the backyard?

Or is this just more limp-wristed whining with no basis in reality?

...and?

This asshat says that people will wise up and stop buying whatever shit the publishers pump out. I say that people buy up shit pumped out from Hollywood producers all the time and continue to do so relentlessly. Why would it be any different with gaming?

He's got a point there, though. Even now, few console games need patches the way PC games have. Makers had to do a lot more testing to make sure they got it right(if not at least somewhat good) because they only had one shot at it.

"The first time we hear the word "patch" in relation to a PS3 or XBox 360 game, we're taking the console back to the store. Filled with our shit."

It's bullshit Internet tough guy posturing. Console games have already had patches put out; why isn't he bitching about those?

Again, you missed the point. You buy a console for one reason, more often than not(the PS2 in Japan was a special case): The games. And most people already have a PC for all the other stuff Microsoft wants the 360 to be.

*snort* I've seen several people with Xboxes modded to double as media players and emulators. Asshat himself admits that Nintendo's "gaming only" stance has cost them sales.

Asshat also speaks of the designer as a singular entity, when in fact it's going to be a team of people. A team of people that will probably have people specializing in different parts of the console. So they'd probably have a team of people specializing on the non-game aspects of the console. This team, I would speculate, probably does not have the same experience in game development and hardware optimization as the rest of the team; they're likely there to just cobble together a software suite that will play CDs, DVDs, and (probably) MP3s. A suite that doesn't need to be terribly optimized because all those apps were doable on decent hardware from 1998.

Asshat again does not know what he's talking about.

Fine then. You go ahead and pay 120 bucks for a game. I'll stick with the usual 40-50$, thank you very much.

Or, I'll refuse to buy the $120 game, the $120 game fails because fewer people were willing to spend so much in a single shot for a game, and the publishers learn not to release games for such high prices.

Besides which, his bitching was aimed at massive multiplayer role playing, where people already blow massive amounts of money of their own volition.

Boiled down, his whine really is "wahh rich kids get the nice toys it's not fair".

Oh shut up.

no u

[Uraniun235]

And especially with patches, I would love to see them patch in "build orders" from the top players. But that's a whole other story.

Personally, I think that if there's an optimum build order established, that the next patch should include an option to start the game with the initial steps of that build order already completed, so as to get players into the action faster rather than mindlessly going through the same routine over and over again.

[SAMAS]

Seriously, it's starting to get less and less. You can count the number of load pauses in some games like God of War on one hand.

Yeah, but his argument is total bullshit. "OMG my old NES didn't have this loading crap!"

Also, some games are better suited for less hits on the disk than others.

More like better made for less hits.

He's not talking about start-time loads, he means in-game.

How are those voices going to be played in-game? Gee, they're going to have to be... loaded at some point! And when will that loading occur? Maybe... while you're loading the rest of that media? Hmm, maybe all that data will add up, and the system won't be able to do it all instantly. Maybe that'll contribute to... waiting for the game to load!

The very thing he was bitching about earlier!

Except when other game makers manage to do all that, without the long and scattered load times.

No, he's got a point there. FPS games are starting to look all the same. As pretty as Half-Life 2 may be, as good as it's storyline or gameplay may be, I saw that scenery a hundred games ago. And let's nto forget the double-wide assload of WWII FPS games that have come out in the past three or four years. Could you tell them apart without playing them? Or even after that?

The few times I feel the need to get an FPS fix, I usually pick up my copy of Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal. Unlike 90% of the true FPS games out there, it actually has an original personality.

Except... there's a limited number of environments with regard to FPS games. You've got spaceships, urban environments, the outdoors, alien planetscapes, the military base, sewers... have I missed anything? Is there anywhere else to go?

Crystal-strewn caves, monster/mutant infested suburban-style neighborhoods, Canyon-straddling bases where you have to pass from ne side to the other, Sunken ships(hell, sunken fleets!), Hopping from ship to ship in the middle of a point-blank space battle(See Battle of Endor), hell, more of anything underwater/in vacuum(and by this, I mean SCUBA/Spacesuit action, not just scenery!), In the middle of a volcanic cavern, in the belly of a huge bioship(that may not take kindly to being a battlefield, In the middle of a city during a huge disaster(earthquake, flood, tornados, riot, giant monster attack, chosen for the next stage in Katamari Damacy, etc...), in the middle of a zoo/menagerie(next time, don't camp next to the lion exibit, n00b!)

And it's not (just)a matter of location, but of presentation. Take, again, the Ratchet & Clank series, which has several stages that can take place in and around a city, but the only time any of the stages feel the same is when they take place in the same city. The designers at Insomniac use different art/architectural styles, colors, times of day, features, weather conditions, and level design to give each one a distinctive feel. Or take for example the planets Aridia and Barlow from the series. Both of them feature three desert stages between the two of them, but the first is a run through a factory over a mud pit, the second is a crawl through a cave coupled with a hang-gliding sequence over a lava flow and a scavenger hunt over open dunes, and the third is a series of mission-based runs to defend a base and take out the enemy(think Unreal Tournament 2004 here). Only the first and third actively resemble each other, and that's because they're on the same planet.

Look, maybe not now, but eventually we're going to hit the same wall that fiction has; there are only a couple hundred unique plots in existence. Everything beyond that is a reiteration with different characters, settings, and other details.

If you can't change the big things, change the little things. Enough empty or burned/bombed-out warehouses. Give me a fully-automated warehouse with robot workers that continue to work through the firefight. Enough european-style cities and american ghettos(Even on another planet, I'm looking at you, Killzone!). Let's see something like Xenosaga, or at the very least Time Crisis. Enough with the grim-n-gritty near future, I want some rayguns!

Similarly, there are only so many places you can go with an FPS. Personally, I like playing through the same concept with different details, if the details are done right; this is why I could enjoy playing through Return to Castle Wolfenstein and also enjoy playing Call of Duty multiplayer and Battlefield 1942 multiplayer.

The genre is not going to be suddenly destroyed once we hit the wall of "we've been everywhere".

Yeah, but the problem is not destruction, but stagnation.

Ever read a review of the Metroid Prime games?

I know they're pretty well-regarded. I haven't actually played through any of them.

I don't see the problem he's bitching about because I actually have a memory and a sense of direction.

One of the common(if few) gripes about the series is the amount of backtracking. Particularly with nothing much happening throughout it.

All the same, it's effecting the industry. So it's on-topic.

But the industry can't do anything about it. Please tell me how id or Valve or EA is going to do anything about this.[/quote]

By renegotiating for use of the patents, or contracting other manufacturers to find other or better ways. The problem was not in the use of patents, but of the whole trying to sue everybody after the use becomes widespread in order to squeeze more money out of the lawsuit. Or open-sourceing cheap alternatives that each company can build upon without having to start from scratch.

This is just more bitching.

For EA? Sure. The NFL? Remains to be seen. Everbody else? He has his doubts.

When did I mention "everyone else"?

That being the problem. He did.

I said it was going to be good for EA. The NFL has the right to determine who may use it's name and intellectual property (logos, etc.) for profit. EA has the right to sign contracts with the NFL and vice versa.

Question: Do you think it would be good for televised sports if ESPN got exclusive rights to broadcast NFL or NBA games?

Should we change this so that trademarks and copyrights are no longer valid? Should I be allowed to stamp the NFL logo on some trashy hardcore pornography I made in the backyard?

No, but was anything wrong with the previous setup? I personally thought the competition from SEGA was doing well for the industry and the gamers. Or is competition bad for the game?

...and?

This asshat says that people will wise up and stop buying whatever shit the publishers pump out. I say that people buy up shit pumped out from Hollywood producers all the time and continue to do so relentlessly. Why would it be any different with gaming?

The gaming industry isn't quite the same as the movie industry.

He's got a point there, though. Even now, few console games need patches the way PC games have. Makers had to do a lot more testing to make sure they got it right(if not at least somewhat good) because they only had one shot at it.

"The first time we hear the word "patch" in relation to a PS3 or XBox 360 game, we're taking the console back to the store. Filled with our shit."

It's bullshit Internet tough guy posturing. Console games have already had patches put out; why isn't he bitching about those?

Probably because he hasn't played them.

Again, you missed the point. You buy a console for one reason, more often than not(the PS2 in Japan was a special case): The games. And most people already have a PC for all the other stuff Microsoft wants the 360 to be.

*snort* I've seen several people with Xboxes modded to double as media players and emulators.

And for every one of those, I'll give you a thousand who don't.

Asshat himself admits that Nintendo's "gaming only" stance has cost them sales.

That would be more along the lines of the image they've gotten about being a "kiddie" system(See here), compared to the "hardcore" images of their competitors. Outside of the PS2 in Japan, you don't see most systems being bought for multimedia purposes over games.

Asshat also speaks of the designer as a singular entity, when in fact it's going to be a team of people. A team of people that will probably have people specializing in different parts of the console. So they'd probably have a team of people specializing on the non-game aspects of the console. This team, I would speculate, probably does not have the same experience in game development and hardware optimization as the rest of the team; they're likely there to just cobble together a software suite that will play CDs, DVDs, and (probably) MP3s. A suite that doesn't need to be terribly optimized because all those apps were doable on decent hardware from 1998.

Asshat again does not know what he's talking about.

Actually, I see him speaking in plural: "Game designers: we're really busy. Lots of us got kids now, and second jobs and mistresses on the side. You want to sell your console games to the millions of people who are lucky to get 30 uninterrupted minutes to play a game? Fix this first.
"

"Game makers: it doesn't have to be a jumping game for you to give the characters the basic ability to jump low obstacles that all humans have."

"This takes some of the pressure off programmers because in multiplayer, other humans supply their own A.I. Even the ones who are complete morons. "

Fine then. You go ahead and pay 120 bucks for a game. I'll stick with the usual 40-50$, thank you very much.

Or, I'll refuse to buy the $120 game, the $120 game fails because fewer people were willing to spend so much in a single shot for a game, and the publishers learn not to release games for such high prices.

Not all at once, but I mean over time for various items and upgrades and such. Hell, I'm still leery over the whole monthly charge thing.

Besides which, his bitching was aimed at massive multiplayer role playing, where people already blow massive amounts of money of their own volition.

And Microsoft is trying to expand that to other facets of gaming, too.

Oh shut up.

no u

[Mr Bean]

A note here, Crates are a tradition dating back to text games, to doom, to the first Quake, to Half-Life, Unreal and on to today's games like Doom 3, Farcry and of course HL2(Best crates ever! )

HL2 showed us the way though, Crates are not just tradition anymore, now they are handly objects to pummel your oppents to death with

So on that point I disagree strongly, crates are here to stay and I love that fact

[Stark]

People are whining about whining? Dear me.

Anyway, I agree with all the points on lazy game mechanics. Starting with a pistol (when you're an uber soldier-cyber-nano-lord), hallways that go nowhere, level maps that are 80% open space and hallway, with four rooms, doors that go nowhere, jumping puzzles, bad cameras, CPU-player cheating (in all it's forms: Burnout 3 was retarded in this respect), shoddy AI, crates with stuff in them, etc. I'm not as concerned about UNIMAGINIVE games as I am about RESTRICTIVE or POORLY DESIGNED games. Somethings you can overlook - System Shock 2s level design made no sense, for instance - but SC2-style 'Sam Fisher blocked by rickety pine fence' is garbage.

I'd like to say something about AI. Some of my friends are AI majors, and one of my friends is some wierdass researcher. The laugh at game AI. They describe game 'AI' as a perversion, a decades-old piece of crap that has barely changed. The low number of states required, and the small number of stimuli, makes coding 'soldier' AI fucking easy. They simply don't hire AI coders, they hire normal, gaming fanboi coders, who say 'w00t this one has a rocket launcher' instead of 'soldiers utilise fire and movement, contest the battlefield and advance, hold or retreat as necessary'.

I'd like to add something - I hate games where you're a super-magic-soldier-lord-cyber-king-nano-genius. Games where you have 10 times the durability, weapon flexibility, better accuracy etc. Like... oh... EVERY RPG AND FPS EVER except games like R6 and SWAT and INF. Crippling the badguys is bad, but basing the whole game on 'you are invincible, and the enemy should resort to tanks, airstrikes or missiles' is dumb.

[Silver Paladin]

I'd like to say something about AI. Some of my friends are AI majors, and one of my friends is some wierdass researcher. The laugh at game AI. They describe game 'AI' as a perversion, a decades-old piece of crap that has barely changed. The low number of states required, and the small number of stimuli, makes coding 'soldier' AI fucking easy. They simply don't hire AI coders, they hire normal, gaming fanboi coders, who say 'w00t this one has a rocket launcher' instead of 'soldiers utilise fire and movement, contest the battlefield and advance, hold or retreat as necessary'.

Possibly the only position harder to fill than a AI programmer in the game industry would be a core/engine programmer. So not only are those positions hard to come by, you end up forking out a truckload of money to them. Core/engine programmers are required for a game. AI programmer is nice, but not really required. Hence, they get neglected.

It's much cheaper to get some extra texture artists/modellers. Hell, you hit the local art institutes, you have a ton of the fanboys that you can hire for under 40K a year. Plus it looks good on a screenshot!

[SirNitram]

I'm not sure how folks can take this seriously on any sort of visible timescale.

Let's see. He wants immersion, super-AI, no loading times, no bugs to be patched, an unknown sized, but presumably huge, quote database, and, of course, he wants new genres.

Right. Well, since we aren't the Culture, you have to take your lumps in a few places there. Quite a few, actually. All of those will suck resources like a black hole; any of them could probably bring a home console to it's knees and start crying like a Hentai schoolgirl presented with a tentacle demon.

The Slashdot reply said it best: Folks vote with their dollars. Stop making Halo 3 a bestseller and maybe someone will stop masturbating to 'We can make everything have a sheen like chrome!'

The genre crap just annoys me. Extract your head from your ass, please. The Greeks figured this one out; there's a finite number of plots. We can shuffle quite alot around, but you'll have to shut up and deal. Don't want to? Great, go out, make something better. How do you think we got the Ultima series?

Uranium covered the rest pretty well. Sure, Instafail stealth sucks.. But it's also slowly dying out. Most of this stuff is just infantile stamping of feet and wanting a game that couldn't exist on any platform yet envisioned, and would cost a few grand anyway.

[SAMAS]

I'm not sure how folks can take this seriously on any sort of visible timescale.

Let's see. He wants immersion, super-AI, no loading times, no bugs to be patched, an unknown sized, but presumably huge, quote database, and, of course, he wants new genres.

Right. Well, since we aren't the Culture, you have to take your lumps in a few places there. Quite a few, actually. All of those will suck resources like a black hole; any of them could probably bring a home console to it's knees and start crying like a Hentai schoolgirl presented with a tentacle demon.

The Slashdot reply said it best: Folks vote with their dollars. Stop making Halo 3 a bestseller and maybe someone will stop masturbating to 'We can make everything have a sheen like chrome!'

The genre crap just annoys me. Extract your head from your ass, please. The Greeks figured this one out; there's a finite number of plots. We can shuffle quite alot around, but you'll have to shut up and deal. Don't want to? Great, go out, make something better. How do you think we got the Ultima series?

Uranium covered the rest pretty well. Sure, Instafail stealth sucks.. But it's also slowly dying out. Most of this stuff is just infantile stamping of feet and wanting a game that couldn't exist on any platform yet envisioned, and would cost a few grand anyway.

Well, if you read the manifesto, he also estimates how the chances of any of the stuff he wants will get.

Yeah, it's a bit extensive(understatement), but that doesn't mean people aren't getting tired of it all the same.

[SirNitram]

Well, if you read the manifesto, he also estimates how the chances of any of the stuff he wants will get.

Yeah, it's a bit extensive(understatement), but that doesn't mean people aren't getting tired of it all the same.

Whoopie, then. He's not just an idiotic internet tough guy, he's aware he's utterly irrelevent and shouts anyway.

[Vendetta]

It should be pointed out that, say, Fable was never going to achieve everything it set out to do, it would never reach it's own ambitions, but it gave a better impression of trying than most.

If developers don't push themselves to do the impossible, they'll only ever achieve the mediocre.