Quick vanilla R:TW question

[Chardok]

How do you get your assasins to work so well? I spawned like 10 of them, mostly 1-skill or 0-skills. After an extended assault against Germanic family members, one of them survived to get 3 skill only to be taken down in his next misson.

Try this with your assassins: You know those little brigand units that hang out near your captial near the beginning of the game which you wipe out oh-so-quickly? Likely with an evil chuckle or two as you grind their armies into the dirt?The captains of those armies are GREAT for assassin practice. That's all I use them for. Also, shitty diplomats and foreign spies are good practice as well. I ALWAYS keep an assassin or two in each city kill diplomats that are attempting to bribe my settlements/family members or spies that get rooted out. (At least, I THINK they're trying to bribe my settlements...) Whichever it is, I don't like them loitering about near my cities anyway.

[Stravo]

I see you say you use Nubian Spearmen against the Selucids. Nubian spearman are attrocious and godawful. You need to rapidly upgrade your barracks so you're pumping out higher grade spearmen, the higher the grade the more damage they can take and dish out as well as much better morale.

Nubian spearmen are best used to garrison out of the way cities if that. I tend to never recruit them once I have a good core force going and any leftovers are relegated to garrison duty or simply disbanded.

Egyptians are strong in archers and their scythed chariots are simply awesome for cutting up enemy cavalry and infantry formation. As the Egyptians I once used two units of scythed chariots to literally puree the massive Brutii cavalry then when their infantry began to break and run....oh how they died in droves.

Even their archers can be dangerous. I was taking on an Egyptian army in Palestine and my Greek Cavalry charged a formation of Pharoh's Archers and were almost decimated after the initial charge.

Use these strengths well. And the higher grade spearmen should be able to at least withstand enemy spearmen long enough for your cavalry and chariots to manuever for a rearward strike.

[Darth Wong]

I agree with Stravo; I had no idea you were relying on Nubian spearmen to be the backbone of your battle line. That's a bad idea; Nubian spearmen are shitty low-grade troops with no armour, and are little better than the crappy Roman Town Watch units in terms of their tactical usefulness. There are much better grades of Egyptian spearmen out there, although the Egyptians can't match the Seleucids for high-quality phalanx troops, especially at low cost.

[Darth Wong]

So I must ask again: why the fuck haven't you been building your own spearmen? Spearmen are the basic infantry unit of the Ptolemaic empire!

Like I said, I have been, but #1. they don't last long and #2. I'm not very good using them.

Use better-quality spearmen rather than the shirtless Nubians, and remember that the key to phalangite combat is to keep your battle line intact, with no holes in the middle. If you have trouble holding the flanks with your support troops, use a "refused flank" formation where one or more units on the end of the line are arranged to face outward at a 30 degree or 45 degree angle. That will buy you more time to maneuver your cavalry into position to hit the enemy battle line from the rear.

One of the problems you're having is clearly high morale on the part of the enemy spearmen, which is not surprising if they're encountering your Nubians and slaughtering them on the field. One of the reasons that the "pin them and hit them from behind" tactic works so well is that they are having trouble with the units in front of them, and their morale cracks when they are hit from behind as well. If the units in front of them are pussies and they're killing them easily. the morale effect of a flanking maneuver will be lessened.

And I don't even know what ptolemic means. (:P)

The Egyptian Empire after Alexander's death was ruled by one of his generals, named Ptolemy. Hence it was known as the Ptolemaic Empire.

[Darth Wong]

OK Chardok, this is what a typical formation might be, against a large enemy phalangite army (especially one which outnumbers yours, and would therefore have a longer battle line; this generally means they would be on the offensive, and you would be on the defensive):

Code: Select all

  PPPPPPPPPPP
 P    A A    P
P  CX  G  XC  P

P is a phalanx unit, A is an archer unit, X is a support unit such as peltasts or mercenary swordsmen (keep these guys in reserve to shore up any weaknesses that appear in your battle line or quickly rush to any areas where the enemy concentrates a large attack and threatens to collapse the phalanx), C is a cavalry or chariot unit, and of course, G is the general. Angle the phalanx units on the wings outward.

The idea is that he'll have a hard time flanking your battle line because of the refused flanks. If your phalanx troops are of high quality, they will be able to hold the enemy for quite some time: long enough to hopefully deal with his support troops and then hit his phalanx units where it hurts.

That reminds me of one thing I wish RTW had: a custom formation generator. The canned formations are usually inadequate for my purposes, although they are helpful for quickly arranging my troops into a formation which I can then manually modify by moving men around a little bit.

[Stark]

In vanilla, I find

PPPPPPPP
xA Ax CCG

works very well: I move the cav around before the lines meet, and the poor AI decides to turn some of his line to attack the cav. This breaks up the line, causes traffice jams, and buys you time to neutralise the enemy cavalry before you charge in and rout everyone.

It only works if you have enough troops to form a long enough line, of course.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

While we're talking formations, I've actually had surprising success with slightly modified actual Roman set-ups, even with non-Romans (such as Greece).

Code: Select all

H H H H
 H H H
H H H

That was the traditional legion formation after the reforms of Marius, H being historically a cohort and in RTW, a century (80 men on Large unit scale). In RTW, most of my prebattle set-ups would look something like:

Code: Select all

A A A A
 H H H
H H H
C  G  C

With archers or additional cavalry tacked on as the case may be, and with A being auxilia.

The advantages of this are many, and translate quite well from history (in that respect, I'm pretty impressed). Auxilia are pretty hard infantry in their own right and can also plow cavalry into dust, making a great front line to deter heavy cavalry. On the defensive, the rear two tiers can throw their pila in support, as well as forming extremely versatile reserves: I can charge forward a tier to bolter the front line if necessary (and 3 units of legionaries will ruin just about anything in RTW), spread them out onto the flanks to enlarge the battle line or cover flanks, about-face to guard the rear from enemy reinforcements as a fully-functional second front line, and just act as plain old general-purpose reserve units, to be committed wherever necessary. This also preserves the more-expensive and harder to train legionaries while on campaign, in addition to being a relatively maneuverable block of men, compared to an unwieldy mass or battle line.

With a little innovation, it can be applied to most "civilized" non-Roman armies too.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I have tested the spearmen/cavalry balance changes more. My original hypothesis was correct: it's friggin' ridiculous. It seems to affect phalanxes more than standard spearmen: charging an engaged barbarian warband in the rear whilst engaged with infantry only killed off one pre-Marius general's bodyguard. However, charging a fully engaged unit of Macedonian phalanx pikemen, its full attention on the hastati engaging them, instantly killed my veteran general himself, in addition to a fair amount of the bodyguard. Allow me to stress instantly. I ordered the charge on their utterly vulnerable rear, and before I had time to react, it cut to the cutscene, "Your general is dead!" from the annoying 15-year-old, etc.

[Alferd Packer]

Rather than make a new thread, I thought we could use this to share faction-specific tips. As a lark, I decided to start up an Armenian game.

Financially, you're in so-so shape. No big deal, though! You start out with several units of horse archers and a cataphract unit. First thing's first: Armenian infantry suuuuuucks. You need to be able to expertly flank and strike with cavalry to win battles.

First, take your horse archers and cataphract east and take Phraaspa before the Parthians get it. Bring along your diplomat and ally with the Parthians to help get the money flowing. In the mean time, you should make diplomats and send them west and south, allying and offering map info for tribute to whomever you meet in Asia Minor.

For the early game, your target should be Seleucia. Their provinces make a ton of money, and they are good practice for the inevitable fight against the Egyptians. In my first fight against them, I was able to crush a 1300-man Seleuclid army with a scant 600 men. Here's how the battle went.

I sent out my horse archers to immediately begin harrassing the masses of phalanxes slowly marching toward me. The best tactic seems to be this: use a unit of horse archers to peel off a phalanx. When they expose their flank, have a second unit of horse archers rip into them. Once you've set this up, you can basically leave them alone; they'll skirmish away from advancing units. As long as they don't get pincered or attacked by cavalry, they're basically invincible.

So the horse archers had enaged about four hundred men, leaving the rest for my crappy infantry and cataphract unit. To win, I swarmed the phalanxes with two or three infantry units. Then charged from the rear with the cataphracts or my Bedouin cavalry. The cataphracts (and I say this without hyperbole) FUCKING RULE! I basically routed units one at a time with a single cataphract charge. Then I'd grab my infantry, glomb on to another phalanx, and repeat. Pretty soon, the whole army was routing, and my cavalry mopped the battlefield with them.

Now, I must wonder: what do I do against cavalry? Should I try to absorb a charge with my shitty, shitty infantry and use my own cavalry to take them out? Should I harass them with horse archers? Is there a third option?

Also, any recommendations for specific factions to try are much appreciated.

[Chardok]

Spearman pwnage update:

Thanks for the advice, all, especially Mike. The refused flank idea works great, and gives plenty of time to wheel around my cavalry units while the enemies are engaged with my spearmen!

Additionally, I have learned that spearmen are EXCELLENT for defending cities. I mean, I've never seen such carnage and kill ratios before, I feel invincible! The idea is: Let em blow a hole in the wall with their rams or onagers. I prefer that, It channels the enemy into a nice, tight area where they meet up with Mr. Phalanx. Hell, even nubian spearmen are able to deny a force many times their size access into the city. I especially like it when they bash down a gate in a city with a large wall. Boiling oil is a great morale breaker, and with speamen keeping them locked up right underneath...well...let's just say it never rains but it pours.

I'm not quite as adept at open-air battles as I would like to be, but things re getting better. I've learned the value of missile cavalry, and how to safely advance into battle without splitting my front in an attempt to flank. Chariots have suddenly become useful as shock troops as well. enemies hate running into a wall of spears and THEN getting mowed down by chariots. The Trick I've learned is to not order the chariot unit to directly attack one unit, but to have them advance TOWARDS said unit, then have them run to a point on the other side of the enemy formation. They cut down lots of enemies that way.

Update on my empire:

The assault from Salamis was successful. I have managed to retake Sidon, Damascus, Jerusalem, and Alexandria, and successfully defend them against multiple attacks. A defensive war is definately easier to fight than an offensive one. I plan on shoring up Sidon for an assault on Tarsus, and Damascus for the push east into Parthian territory. Wish me luck!

[Captain Cyran]

A defensive war is definately easier to fight than an offensive one.

I cannot state the number of times as the Seleucid going up against, well, anyone, where I would set up my army in a strategic location right infront of the enemy and then let them attack me. I always decimated the enemy.

[Alferd Packer]

Need some advice for my aforementioned Armenian campaign, specifically, how to deal with Egypt.

Right now, I have basically taken over the Seleuclid Empire. They only have Damascus right now. Egypt is, however, unrelenting. Every ten turns or so Antioch is being hit with with full stack army. Luckily for me I have stone walls, so the sieges are pretty easy. Nonetheless, it's getting annoying. I've taken Sidon, and I have my eyes on Jerusalem. After that, though, I don't know where to go. I'm thinking Salamis to get some more phat income, then launch a seaborne invasion of Egypt proper, with a simultaneous march from Jerusalem for garrion/reinforcments. If I can grab Alexandria, Memphis, and Thebes, I feel that I'll have broken the Egyptians' back, and can mop up their remaining provinces at my leisure.

Think that's sound? Or should I just bum rush them and take Egypt ASAP?

[Darth Wong]

Naval invasion of Alexandria. That really fucks them up. Drop a full-stack army on the shores right next to Alexandria, and then take the city in the next turn. The city is highly defensible once you have possession, and geographically, this virtually splits their empire in two.

[Admiral Valdemar]

What size force are we talking for pulling off such an invasion?

[Darth Wong]

What size force are we talking for pulling off such an invasion?

I've done it with a general and a handful of mercenary units, but it really depends on how big his garrison is, and whether you get attacked during the 1 turn that you must besiege his city in order to get siege weapons. An operation like that requires a bit of daring unless you have a huge full-stack army. You normally want to do it shortly after he's built a huge army and sent it toward your territory, making sure it's far enough away that it can't double back and attack you in the next turn. Spies are useful here; you want reconaissance before landing your troops.

[Surlethe]

I'm having trouble getting my cities to pull a profit. I'm playing as the Brutii, and I just crushed Thrace, so I've several turns of breathing room before I go to war again. How best can I use them to start making some money?

[Fire Fly]

There's no such thing as a city not pulling in money. When you see a city that is "making" -1051 denari, most likely means:

1. Its a large city.

2. Because its a larger city, its going to be paying a larger share for the cost of your empire.

Larger cities will have the burden of maintaining the costs of your empire where as smaller cities don't. But in order to maximize the financial output of each city, you need governors with good management skills. A governor with 5 scrolls can pull in an extra 500 denari. In my RTW: BI game right now, my governor in Rome has 10 scrolls and that alone is pulling in an extra 1200 denari.

In addition, building and upgrading ports is the easiest way to get more money, especially if you control Greece in RTW. If you control the Aegean Sea area, you are set. That is the real money maker of the Mediterranean. To make more money, also, cut back on units that are not necessary; you don't need 6 legionaries in your cities when 6 town watches or 6 peasant units works just as well. And keeping your people happy will mean you can set the tax levels at the highest.

So, you need good governors with influence and management and you need the right economic buildings.

[Alferd Packer]

Naval invasion of Alexandria. That really fucks them up. Drop a full-stack army on the shores right next to Alexandria, and then take the city in the next turn. The city is highly defensible once you have possession, and geographically, this virtually splits their empire in two.

Wow, did this ever break Egypt's back! Sidon and Antioch were constantly under siege, and I was losing money rapidly, so I took my faction leader's army and zipped on over to Alexandria. I was in luck, as it was weakly garrisoned and only had wooden walls! I built a ram and attacked the next turn, easily taking it and slaughtering the population to get back in the black. Simultaneously, I repelled two massive invasions at Sidon and Antioch, so I was relatively secure, for the moment.

Two turns later, Egypt lost Jerusalem to to revolt. The next turn, they lost Seleucia. Damascus is currently rioting and will go at any time. They've gone from an offensive to a defensive game, re-garrisoning their cities to keep them from rebelling. In the mean time, once I've built a solid garrison for Alexandira, I plan on nabbing Memphis and Thebes, and the game will be mine.

Let this be a lesson to those fighting the Egyptians: take Alexandria and you'll really have them by the balls.

[Darth Wong]

Good to hear that it worked out well for you. As you can see now, my suggestion was based on experience

[Agent Fisher]

Question. Just bought R:TW, some of my cites are constanly losing money, no matter what I do, those cities keep sucking up my money. Oh, and I took out Gaul, that was fun. Oh, and what does full stack/ half stack mean?

[Duckie]

Question. Just bought R:TW, some of my cites are constanly losing money, no matter what I do, those cities keep sucking up my money. Oh, and I took out Gaul, that was fun. Oh, and what does full stack/ half stack mean?

Patch up to the highest version if you haven't. Build structures like Roads, Markets, and Ports in cities for trade. (I prefer to go Generalist so that I can have equally mediocre cities throughout my empire and I can't lose a war by losing a city, but many find it useful to have military cities (or even cavalry and infantry cities) and economic cities)

Check your garrisons- peasants or town watch (I prefer to latter so I can kill Brigands with them instead of diverting a whole campaign or raising a new army) are just as good as Hastati and the like for guarding.

Micromanage your taxes- Many cities can have extreme happiness at Very High until Squalor takes them out. That will help your profits. Yellow face for happiness is good enough.

I assume Full Stack/Half Stack means how much of the Army Slots are full (I believe there are 20). Barbarian Hordes in the Expansion Pack will often fill them, naturally.

[Surlethe]

Question. Just bought R:TW, some of my cites are constanly losing money, no matter what I do, those cities keep sucking up my money. Oh, and I took out Gaul, that was fun. Oh, and what does full stack/ half stack mean?

You'll note your armies have banners. The amount of that banner which is the solid color of your faction is the "stack" of the army; a full-stack army is an army which has a nearly solid banner; a half-stack is half full. You get the idea.

[Alferd Packer]

Question. Just bought R:TW, some of my cites are constanly losing money, no matter what I do, those cities keep sucking up my money. Oh, and I took out Gaul, that was fun. Oh, and what does full stack/ half stack mean?

1. You're not getting good trade synergies going. You need to take your diplomat and get trade rights with every faction that you're not currently fighting. Ports are absolutely essential to making good money, as are roads. You need to make sure that neither are blocked by enemy armies/navies. Also, Gaul isn't particularly rich, or so I've found out. Also, to save money, you should garrison interior cities with peasants only. Save your fighting units for frontier cities and actual fighting.

2. "Stack" refers to that flag above the army's head on the campaign map. Full-stack means rougly an 18-20 unit army, half-stack means roughly 9-12.

[Surlethe]

1. You're not getting good trade synergies going. You need to take your diplomat and get trade rights with every faction that you're not currently fighting. Ports are absolutely essential to making good money, as are roads. You need to make sure that neither are blocked by enemy armies/navies. Also, Gaul isn't particularly rich, or so I've found out. Also, to save money, you should garrison interior cities with peasants only. Save your fighting units for frontier cities and actual fighting.

Will rival navies sitting on trade routes hamper trade?

[Alferd Packer]

Will rival navies sitting on trade routes hamper trade?

No, I believe they must actually blockade ports.