The Big Thread of Board Games

[Zinegata]

It takes about 4-6 jumps for the humans to win in BSG, with around 5 or more event cards per jump. You should probably get at least a few cycles wherein a Cylon fleet shows up (in my play experience you should get at least 2 jumps that involves the Cylon fleet), but odd "peaceful" games do happen once in a while.

The bigger issue I would say is that the Cylon fleet may come out at the wrong times. If the humans are very far into the jump track, chances are good that they can make the jump before the Cylon ships become an issue at all.

I would also note that Pilots aren't gimped by not having Cylons to fight. There are plenty of challenges that require red cards in order to pass.

======

I think the bigger issue in the original game is that very experienced players will know what to do to win as the humans, making it difficult for the Cylons to pretend that they're human without giving themselves away. The Cylons are thus forced to reveal themselves early (which tends to weaken them), or they are forced to help the humans to maintain their cover.

I once played a game wherein as a human wherein we simply locked up anyone who showed any signs of incompetence (to the point that we had 4 players in jail, and only 2 running the fleet), and the humans won by a pretty big landslide.

You really need subtle tricks in order to maintain your innocence. Slipping in cards to ruin a challenge is simply too obvious. If it was a green card that ruined the challenge for instance, it's usually not hard to trace down who added it.

One thing I've seen our more experienced Cylon players do is to use up the cards in their hand by a huge margin (i.e. using 6 cards when we only need to hit a Challenge rating of 9) so that they can claim they are out of cards to help people later on. A more brillant play is to use the ship space which lets you draw any color of card, and then use it to frame someone else during a critical challenge.

[CaptainChewbacca]

A cylon admiral can really fuck things over, but other than that there's not a lot to do early on.

[DPDarkPrimus]

There can be some slow lulls in the base game, but with Exodus' Cylon Fleet option that gets replaced by an impending sense of doom - but even with just the Exodus expansion, going to New Caprica instead of just calling it a win after traveling 8 distance makes it all the more difficult to coast to a victory as human.

[madd0ct0r]

we ended up adding a houserule 'loneliness of command'

Only the player who has to may make the decision. No advice may be offered (people kept voting, which kind screwed the cylons)

[DPDarkPrimus]

Of course the person who is choosing is the only one who can make the decision.

Having people do a popular vote on which action to take is completely contrary to the game, both in spirit and rules.

Not allowing anyone to give any advice, however, removes much of the wonderful meta-game where people argue back and forth about which terrible outcome isn't as terrible as the other, and whoever is supporting the other thing is obviously a Cylon.

[madd0ct0r]

no, instead we got a subtle version where people had to try and nudge the decision their way by talking about something else entirely. It tended to get a bit cold war...

[DPDarkPrimus]

Everyone being too clever for their own good, eh?

[wautd]

I got to play Thunderstone for the first time and I kinda liked it over Dominion as deck building games go. Sure, there's less player interaction but I preferred its theme, the levelling up of your heroes and defeating monsters. I'll probably end up adding it to my collection but I wonder if Thunderstone: advance is worth the extra bucks.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I saw this on Kickstarter today, The Doom that Came to Atlantic City is an interesting fusion of Lovecraft and Monopoly. I look forward to buying it when it comes out.

[Zinegata]

I got to play Thunderstone for the first time and I kinda liked it over Dominion as deck building games go. Sure, there's less player interaction but I preferred its theme, the levelling up of your heroes and defeating monsters. I'll probably end up adding it to my collection but I wonder if Thunderstone: advance is worth the extra bucks.

The theme is superior, and the expansions generally increase the difficulty level so that it's not just a monster massacre.

Haven't played TS Advance, but I heard the base set is more interesting but it doesn't exactly have expansions yet.

[cadbrowser]

I've got an idea for a game, and I got some fairly good positive and constructive feedback from another forum I frequent and thought I'd share it with everyone here to see what opinions you all may have.

This is what I have so far:

A Munchkin/Risk hybrid type board/card game where players assume the roles of extinct hominids in order to beat out each other and the game antagonist, H. Sapian, to become the only surviving species of Homo. Each player will begin by selecting a Species card which defines some factoids as well as attributes and their "territory".

I think some good information regarding evolution and some of its mechanisms can be taught this way.

There will also be a fate card deck which dishes out various circumstances that are either benefitial or harmful to the player that drew it. Some examples of benefitial cards could be tied to discoveries, tool making, natural immunizations, varying levels of agriculture and etcetera. Some examples of harmful cards could be predators, natural disasters, diseases, and of course the advancement of the antagonist H. Sapiens.

A few rules I have come up with brainstorming with friends so far:

If you pull up a fate card with a disease and it is in the same location as your species, you are automatically immune. Otherwise you have ways of fighting it with either your medicinal attribute value (beating it's infection value) or you spend rounds attempting to develop a cure by increasing your medicinal attribute value. Depending on the mortality rating of that disease you have a specified number of rounds before your species goes exinct.

Two players can join forces and interbreed to develop another species wherin their attributes are shared and merged (will figure out how to do this) via - Conquest: One player can take over another player's territory and force co-habitation and interbreeding by making the other species their slave. Mutuality: Players agree to join together for the benefit of each other.

Also players can choose to eliminate the competition via war and perform a complete eradication.

So...that is the basis; I am wanting to develop this as a fun, exciting, and intense game as well as sneak in some good information regarding variant aspects of evolution. One of the tricks will be to represent the ideas and theories in a way that is informative and accurate; but so that the layman gets it.

Here is the list of H. Species I am looking at:

• Homo Sapien
  Denisova Hominin
  Homo Neanderthalensis
  Homo Habilis
  Homo Gautengensis
  Homo Erectus
  Homo Ergaster
  Homo Floresiensis
  Homo Heidelbergenisis
  Homo Rhodesiensis
  Homo Rudolfensis
  Homo Antecessor
  Homo Cepranensis

Based on this information gleamed from HERE; I found it difficult to arrange these species in appropriate territories (I'm just not that educated with it). Would also like to get some opinions from any palaeontologists or related field to rationalize what these other species might be like had they the opportunity to all live up to the 100,000 B.C. mark.

So, if anyone would want to help me with ideas and such, I would be very greatful. Plus I am very interrested in a lot of feedback. I'm scrounging around the house to see what board games I have and can borrow from to create a playtest version of this to see how people like it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think an interesting victory condition might be 'Monument', where the H. Sapiens are spending the game trying to do something that starts their civilization (a pyramid, etc) but if your species manages to do it FIRST, your civilization gets a huge point bonus to the point of it almost being impossible to go extinct.

Your game sounds a bit like 'Small World', you might want to take a look at that.

[cadbrowser]

Nice Chewie...I like that idea.

Never heard of 'Small World'. I will google it.

Any other criticisms?

[Uraniun235]

Also players can choose to eliminate the competition via war and perform a complete eradication.

This might come off as a bit snobbish, but you should consider carefully whether you want to incorporate player elimination in your game. A lot of board games developed in recent years eschew player elimination, in substantial part because it can lead to the problem of eliminated players having nothing to do while the game goes on and finishes.

It's your call, and it's certainly still possible to have a good and fun game where players can be knocked off, but it does deserve consideration. Chewie brought up Small World; a mechanic of being able to start up and play a new species after your previous one has become untenable might be just what you need.

[Zinegata]

Euros generally eschew player elimination; but most American boardgames do not. It really depends on what kind of market you're trying to sell the game to, with the former generally appreciating games based on the mechanics; whereas the latter is strong on theme.

Cadbrowser->

Also, since I just bought it, you may want to look at Bios Megafauna, which is kind of like what you're thinking except that it involves the struggle between mammals and dinosaurs.

[wautd]

Pandemic is an awesome co-op game. We ended up playing 4 games in a row and only managed to beat the game once.

[cadbrowser]

Also players can choose to eliminate the competition via war and perform a complete eradication.

This might come off as a bit snobbish, but you should consider carefully whether you want to incorporate player elimination in your game. A lot of board games developed in recent years eschew player elimination, in substantial part because it can lead to the problem of eliminated players having nothing to do while the game goes on and finishes.

It's your call, and it's certainly still possible to have a good and fun game where players can be knocked off, but it does deserve consideration. Chewie brought up Small World; a mechanic of being able to start up and play a new species after your previous one has become untenable might be just what you need.

Not snobbish at all...in fact I welcome all healthy criticisms.

To answer your question, I am actually hoping to find a mechanic that allows eliminated players to affect game play...just haven't quite figured out what that is yet as most of the mechanics still need to be figured out. Right now just gathering info and ideas and testing interest.

I will consider a similar mechanic that Chewie brought up. I can see this working if there are many more species to select from than there are players; but once they are all eliminated then that's it; otherwise, it defeats the whole purpose of the game (which is become the last surviving Homo).

The only other problem I see with bringing in this mechanic tho is I would hate to create a board game that draws out to infinity (like monopoly can...or seem so anyway).

Euros generally eschew player elimination; but most American boardgames do not. It really depends on what kind of market you're trying to sell the game to, with the former generally appreciating games based on the mechanics; whereas the latter is strong on theme.

Cadbrowser->

Also, since I just bought it, you may want to look at Bios Megafauna, which is kind of like what you're thinking except that it involves the struggle between mammals and dinosaurs.

True as far as the second part of your first sentence...as I am unfamiliar what is status quo in the European market then I will take your word.

I would imagine that i would start with the US as far as market goes; simply because I am in the US. But, there are many here who are so hung up on the idea that Evolution is of the devil ( ) that it may not fair that well). I was hoping that this could partially be loaded with interresting facts about evolution and it's mechanics towhere it can be geared towards the layperson so that they can learn something too. But, that would require a balance between fluff and fact.

I'll check out Bios Megafauna too...my list of games to look at is getting bigger and bigger by the day!

Pandemic is an awesome co-op game. We ended up playing 4 games in a row and only managed to beat the game once.

Cool! Is it anything like the flash game they came out with a while back ago? I'll look into this as well.

---

Curious thought:

To wautd, Zinegata, Chewie

With these games that I have been given reference to check out...for those that have played them; what is the average time spent for these games to play out?

[Spoonist]

@cadbrowser
You really should have a mod split this to its own topic instead of cluttering up this one.
For instance, wautd's pandemic reference was not in response to you. That game resembles nothing of the elements you wish to play out.

Also isn't it very counterproductive to have a game about evolution where the goal would be to "counter" evolution by having a less "fit" hominid "win"?
You should definately look up Small World, but more importantly you should look up the game "Brittania" which Small World has refined the concept from. This because if you want accuracy or facts then that setup will be much better. Brittania is a game of historical britain, with different civilizations and tribes coming in one after the other (a player will play several ones). This means that you will mostly play out history as it indeed did happen, but you can also alter it slightly. Perfect for your setup.
However, realistic games like Brittania would only be for hardcore gamers, so you have a mismatch in goals. Do you really want to teach evulotion, or do you want to create a good game?

[cadbrowser]

@cadbrowser
You really should have a mod split this to its own topic instead of cluttering up this one.

If a mod so desires, I don't have a problem with it. I just thought (by the title) that this was the forum to post it on...I mean; there are 11 pages of different games and stuff so I'm confused with your "clutter" comment.

EDIT: Adding this:

This is a thread to talk about different board games. Favorites, ones you like, looking for suggestions on new ones, gifts, and so on.

This what the reason I put it in here. But...if a mod wants to move it; so be it.

END EDIT!

For instance, wautd's pandemic reference was not in response to you. That game resembles nothing of the elements you wish to play out.

Oh, my bad with regards to Pandemic and wautd. I checked it out anyway. I could see a few elements that might interject their way in.

Also isn't it very counterproductive to have a game about evolution where the goal would be to "counter" evolution by having a less "fit" hominid "win"?

I don't think so. It's called hypothetical. I made that pretty clear in my initial post on this. Not sure why the negative nitpick. I don't see it any different than any of these other games suggested. Take Bios: Megafauna for example...according to their blurb on it you can create flying dolphins and other such things.

If a person learns how to utilize the mechanisms of evolution in the game the really who cares what species it's being used on?

You should definately look up Small World, but more importantly you should look up the game "Brittania" which Small World has refined the concept from. This because if you want accuracy or facts then that setup will be much better. Brittania is a game of historical britain, with different civilizations and tribes coming in one after the other (a player will play several ones). This means that you will mostly play out history as it indeed did happen, but you can also alter it slightly. Perfect for your setup.

I'll check into it.

However, realistic games like Brittania would only be for hardcore gamers, so you have a mismatch in goals. Do you really want to teach evulotion, or do you want to create a good game?

Hmmm...Ok...how 'bout if I word it this way:

I would like to create a good game that utilizes the concepts of evolution whereby players can learn.

I don't see how there are few that seem this to be a mutually exclusive goal. It boggles me. Just because it is factual doesn't mean it has to be boring.

[Spoonist]

Fuck fuck fuck. Was writing a huge ass reply and lost it in a browser glitch. Fuck.
So a short summary instead.
Don't take feedback personally, take it from me. I've made 100+ boardgames of with 95% were crap and only one was ever published commercially. Feedback is your friend. So don't defend against it unless you have really understod it.

Pandemic is available online - search boardgamegeek for links. So you can try it out before buying. There is also a game which copies the game mechanics but is in a fantasy setting instead which I think is more fun.

Regarding brittania - check this out, pay attention between 3;23 and 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMR25tnmC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zsjxsFk-o
This concept but simplified would be my suggestion for a hominid history setting.

Megafauna is a perfect example how NOT to teach evolution.
1) Its too heavy
2) It takes too long time to play through 3-8h
3) evolution doesn't have intent, so this teaches the most common misconception of evolution, not actual evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYbMIsdWsU

Questions:
Hobby or commercial?
Distribution?
Target audience?
Gameplay length?
Needed wanted game mechanisms?
Cost? (your risk+munchkin is a worst case scenario of maximum cost, ie big board AND counters AND cards)
Weight/difficulty?
etc
Give us a short explanation on the business model? (Hobby for distribution over net, print yourself etc???)

Sorry for the shortness, but fuck I lost that long reply and gotta go to bed...

[Zinegata]

I would imagine that i would start with the US as far as market goes; simply because I am in the US. But, there are many here who are so hung up on the idea that Evolution is of the devil ( ) that it may not fair that well). I was hoping that this could partially be loaded with interresting facts about evolution and it's mechanics towhere it can be geared towards the layperson so that they can learn something too. But, that would require a balance between fluff and fact.

Boardgames of this nature both in the US and Europe tend to be specialty games, with print runs in the thousands rather than the millions. I would not expect the Bible Thumper crowd to be an issue. Bios Megafauna for instance is a US game made for the US market.

With these games that I have been given reference to check out...for those that have played them; what is the average time spent for these games to play out?

Most games nowadays average between 1-2 hours. A heavier game goes up to 4 hours. Any bigger and it's a a monster game that can take anywhere from 8 hours to 10 years to play.

[Zinegata]

Regarding brittania - check this out, pay attention between 3;23 and 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMR25tnmC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zsjxsFk-o
This concept but simplified would be my suggestion for a hominid history setting.

There's a version of this game on ancient China that's much better. It includes things like the Three Kingdoms period, every dynasty ever, and even Mao vs Chiang Kai Shek.

Megafauna is a perfect example how NOT to teach evolution.
1) Its too heavy
2) It takes too long time to play through 3-8h
3) evolution doesn't have intent, so this teaches the most common misconception of evolution, not actual evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYbMIsdWsU

It's an Eklund game. It's an acquired taste.

[Spoonist]

Megafauna is a perfect example how NOT to teach evolution.
1) Its too heavy
2) It takes too long time to play through 3-8h
3) evolution doesn't have intent, so this teaches the most common misconception of evolution, not actual evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYbMIsdWsU

It's an Eklund game. It's an acquired taste.

Oh I like complex games, but this just doesn't seem to be worth it. Some game concepts/mechanics are better on the computer and this is definately one of them.

I did one game that took a week or two to play through, but the 'rewards' to the player was instant so it was more of a "just another turn" feel.
In Megafauna the disasters are disasters for the game - after all of your careful planning and hours to pick and chose a correct strategy or optimum way - and its still down to too few lucky draws by disasters.
Its akin to playing diplomacy for 10hours and then just before end game all roll 2d6 and have to remove that many units. Sure the leader have a greater chance of winning but why the lucky draw?
If he had made disasters more frequent with smaller effects they would have been part of the game, but now...

[Zinegata]

In Megafauna the disasters are disasters for the game - after all of your careful planning and hours to pick and chose a correct strategy or optimum way - and its still down to too few lucky draws by disasters.

Well, that does sound like standard Phil Eklund design, hence me saying it's an acquired taste. We've had disasters in High Frontier that resulted in some players losing the game because their space craft blew up four times in a row while still waiting for launch at the pad, and this is exactly the sort of hijinks we expect.

(And then there's the time when we had someone's NASA team getting trapped on Mars for 27 years due to a minor fuel calculation error... and it took a concerted effort from the Chinese and Japanese space agencies plus Ed Harris to bring them back home .)

Eklund's designs are generally shaky on the mechanics, with disasters leading to virtual player elimination (in the great tradition of Ameritrash) but we still play them from time to time because of the theme. Yeah, the evolution he portrays in Bios Megafauna isn't very realistic, but we want to see all kinds of funky creatures ending up dominating the world. It's a game that's played not to win, but to see what kind of story you can get out of it.

I fully agree though - The man really needs a good developer to shore up his mechanics

[cadbrowser]

Fuck fuck fuck. Was writing a huge ass reply and lost it in a browser glitch. Fuck.
So a short summary instead.
Don't take feedback personally, take it from me. I've made 100+ boardgames of with 95% were crap and only one was ever published commercially. Feedback is your friend. So don't defend against it unless you have really understod it.

Dang Spoonist...that sucks...sorry that happened.

I enjoy feedback...as long as it makes sense. Some of your feedback did, some of it didn't. No big deal.

Not sure what you are getting at with your last sentence...what haven't I understood?

Pandemic is available online - search boardgamegeek for links. So you can try it out before buying.

I have, and if it's the same one I'm thinking of then it was pretty badass.

There is also a game which copies the game mechanics but is in a fantasy setting instead which I think is more fun.

Oh really? Do you remember the name of it? Sounds like fun.

Regarding brittania - check this out, pay attention between 3;23 and 4:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMR25tnmC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zsjxsFk-o
This concept but simplified would be my suggestion for a hominid history setting.

I'll try to check this out at home. They don't like us streaming music/vids here at work and I have a "borrowed" internet connection at home...so I'll try to remember to check it out there. Thank you for the heads up! I'm very interrested.

Megafauna is a perfect example how NOT to teach evolution.
1) Its too heavy
2) It takes too long time to play through 3-8h
3) evolution doesn't have intent, so this teaches the most common misconception of evolution, not actual evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYbMIsdWsU

Well, if they're comming up with flying dolphins...then most definately...I'd agree with you. Seems to me this would be a good example of too much fluff and not enough fact.

Let me give you an idea of what I mean within my idea of the game for giving some facts regarding evolution:

Code: Select all

Player is "x" species of hominid in "y" territory.  Player draws a fate card and turns up an infection/disease caused by a virus.  Now, if this virus normally occurs within the same territory as this "x" species, then there is a very high probability that most...if not all of the population could be immune.  If the virus was brought in from another creature or species of hominid, then there is a good chance that a very small portion or none is immune.  So, I can have a rule that either assumes immunity if the card they drew has a origin the same as the player's species, or he would have to roll to see how much of his population dies.

Questions:

Hobby or commercial?
- Hopefully this'll be something I can distribute on my game site as a commercial product; but right now it is just a hobby as I am attempting to develop an RPG as well as find a few good people to write and etc.

Distribution?
- Hoping to sell off my webiste as well as get in some small game shops.

Target audience?
- Thirteen and up

Gameplay length?
- My goal would be no more than two hours

Needed wanted game mechanisms?
- Can you clarify? Not understanding this question.

Cost? (your risk+munchkin is a worst case scenario of maximum cost, ie big board AND counters AND cards)
- Not sure; Still scroungin for parts to get some ideas on how I want the board layout to look like and stuff. In the end; I am shooting for an MSRP similar to a Risk game or less.

Weight/difficulty?
- What do you mean by weight? Hoping to develop a system towhere it is very easy to learn and a lot of the cards you pick up explain themselves, and the curve to play is minimal without having a massive rule book.

Give us a short explanation on the business model? (Hobby for distribution over net, print yourself etc???)
- In the process of developing my own LLC as an umbrella company for RPGs, board games, card games, novels, and etcetera to sell mainly from my own website. I have a URL reserved, RPG and illustrator hired that is appx 65% complete (with a prequel/sequel themes wrote out), several other RPG ideas on the back burner, and this game so far. Plus, I have a full time job, contribute to an rpg forum (sharing ideas gathering feedback), and support my sister and her husband by attenting their shows (both are bassist for two different bands locally! In fact, my sis won Bassist of the Year award last week...I'm so proud). Sorry, got off track there...but essentially I am looking to turn this hobby into a full time deal.

Sorry for the shortness, but fuck I lost that long reply and gotta go to bed...

No worries. Very much appreciate all the feedback. You have me thinking harder now on how to make this work.