Space Empires Gold B5 Game (The Second)

Tobor · Post by **Tobor** » 2006-10-19 01:33pm

I'm not quite sure what you mean GS. As far as i'm concerned i came back to find that all that had happened to my empire. THe fact that i'd been incommunicado for the last two weeks doesnt change that at all. Its not waffling on, as you put it, to relay surprise at an unforseen turn of events so much as - wow, this was unexpected, i think i'll voice my surprise at it in a method that meshes RL with SL.

ANyway, its pretty much irrelivent since you explained it all earlier and just why it had occured.

Tobor · Post by **Tobor** » 2006-10-27 02:12am

If you're on arthur would you mind delaying the turn a few hours because kojiro isn't home yet and he forgot to submit his turn.

Thanks

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-27 02:15am

Great timing Tobor you posted one minute before the turn automatically executed

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Anyway I stayed up all night for it. It's too bad that PBW doesn't keep a track of .plr files so when we roll back we don't have to get everybody to redo 2 days worth of turns. I am not redoing last turn unless it is absolutely the end of the universe, because it took me nine hundred clicks in the message window and thousands more clicks for all my yards to get set up!

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Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-10-27 04:30pm

Wouldn't have helped anyway, as I had already gone to bed when this message was posted.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-10-27 09:59pm

Er, is there going to be a rollback or not?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-27 10:05pm

If there is, it's going to be a bitch of a rollback because I renamed hundreds of yards, set eight hundred queues on repeat build and sent a message worth nine hundred clicks. Overall you're asking me to do three hours all over.

But I guess it's up to Tux. Personally I don't really care since it'll let me redo some things and now that I know U235's dumping me, I can get started on my crash rearmadment program sooner

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Kojiro I noticed your empire's not set on "Do not make changes during a simultaneous game." The option's under Ministers.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-10-27 11:08pm

Can you not simply resubmit the same turn file again?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-27 11:14pm

Kojiro wrote:Can you not simply resubmit the same turn file again?

Oh yeah, maybe, but now I know things. Like EA leaving me to fend for myself (the motherfucker, remember kids treaties with the EA are worth less than the paper they're written on!) so I have to remilitarize.

Too bad for the galaxy. When I have 300 planet killer again I'll be one big giant pimple in everybody's face. All I wanted to do was build fighters and sell them for lots of money but nooooo people have to bring in ships to want to kill me.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-10-27 11:20pm

Yeah, why are you attacking the Corporates, anyway? Really, the motive for this one escapes me.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-27 11:42pm

Trogdor wrote:Yeah, why are you attacking the Corporates, anyway? Really, the motive for this one escapes me.

The Vorlons work in mysterious ways. Actually he hasn't technically attacked me yet. Only moved one hundred ships on top of Yolu Prime

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But the shit is given the Ancients broken range advantage and if U235 wanted to protect me he had to fight on a warp point so I made a big fuss about it (and he bailed the yellow livered scum!). I've got over eight hundred ramming ships that move 20+ in combat so that might not matter much... it takes 2-3 Tomahawks to kill one of Kojiro's battleships and 5-6 to kill one of his super dreads. Maybe 10-15 to kill a planet killer but he doesn't have too many thankfully, yet. So I'm not entirely defenseless but I have to make a big decision this turn, whether or not to break my treaty with the Vorlons so my gates are clean and I get first shot. Even without first shot I can probably hold off over two hundred ships so I'm okay. Just seven can kill a Sharlin or a Valen'tha

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Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-10-28 02:54am

That's kinda the thing Trogs, Neph and I decided not to go after the Corporates, just the League. It was decided long ago to leave them alone. The only reason my ships are there is for RP. Suddenly declaring 'we're Shadow free' shouldn't convince anyone, and certainly not the Vorlons. It's the Corporate posturing that creates the illusion of an attack.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-28 07:46am

The Shadows never worked overtly, and the Yolu+Hurr+Corporate breakaway colonies never declared their allegiance to the Shadows. Most of the money from those colonies was used to maintain the League's rather large fleet, and the League only had twenty to thirty Shadow vessels by the time the Vorlons and Minbari arrived and over three hundred and fifty other kinds. So it's not like the Shadows couldn't have kept everything hidden. The Corporates are convinced the Shadows are gone (some don't even believe the Shadows were there in force in the first place), and the game mechanics say the Shadows are gone. In fact the Shadows only stayed in Hurr space, and the Yolu and the Corporate breakaways in Tulok and Trembas never had a significant Shadow presence. Gups also did a good job by keeping the League agenda separate from the Shadow agenda. It's not like the League suddenly sent 350 ships to start killing the Vorlons or Minbari which they could have, and Gups even kept the Yolu/Hurr/Hurr reserve fleets separate to maintain Hurr/Yolu national identity when the right thing to do if he was powergaming would've been to kept all three fleets together on the Q27 to Cooke jump gate (if he had, the Minbari and Vorlons would've lost). He did a good job with the League and kept their motivations separate from the Shadows.

The Corporates got back Yolu Prime a few turns ago, which by the way has been under Corporate rule at one point or another since the beginning of the game. And the Vorlons start deploying first yards, then another twenty ships, then forty ships, then last turn they had over 98 ships there one jump away from Corporate space. It looks like a buildup to an invasion.

I think you're worried that Gups or Tux might be coming back and all of a sudden we'll gift the planets back to the Shadows. I agree that would be cheapshit, but you're forgetting one thing. Reefa wouldn't give the planets back, and the Corporate breakaway of planets was only a one-time thing after the Corporate sector's government throwaway. Greed drives all and the League is dead forever unless the Shadows manage to come back from the East, and then they would have to bully the Corporate Sector and Centauri into giving the planets back. Don't worry you killed it. The Centauri agenda is definitely different than the Shadow agenda, as is the Corporate agenda.

Of course there is one way to settle things. Take all the League worlds for yourself. You know you want to

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As for posturing there's been nothing in the RP that's been out in the open in M6. It's all been behind the scenes, mostly to nudge EA into breaking his treaty with you last turn because the only way he could've stopped you would be to catch you at the gate. Now that I've run a few more sims with my ramming ships I'm satisfied. They can routinely kill anything but your most heavily armed ships and whoever wants to invade the CS will get a bloody nose. But the EA ran like pissants when they could've held the jump gate all on their own. Bah, "fleet in Trembas broken" indeed U235... if you had first shot you would've killed anything coming through that gate

. The warp point battles are so stupid, 80 of my older super dreadnaughts managed to kill 120 Minbari ships (and probably could've killed more had I set the targeting priorities straight and ordered them not to hit fighters) and 100 of my heavy baseships worth three times more and three or four times as heavily armored and armed don't even scratch the Minbari because of range. It's allllllllllll about the jump gates, at least unless you have ramming ships or equal range. Once EA gets LMSB they'll be better than the Minbari.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-28 09:00am

Anyway since I know OOC that Kojiro doesn't plan to attack me (and somewhat IC since the Vorlon ships "retreated" when the AI took their turn) let the bidding begin.

Open a Warp Point/Close a Warp Point : 100k/100k/100k
Subject to refusal if the opening/closing is considered too provocative/cuts off trade (which I won't do).
You do not get the ship I open it for you.

Inventory : 0
Cost : 1200/0/1600
800x4 damage

Inventory : ~100
Cost : 1032/0/32
100/turn
(279-348)x2 damage
365 HP

Inventory : 83
Cost : 1028/0/0
~100/turn
54 damage
294 HP

Inventory : 66
Cost : 1054/0/129
~500/turn
13 strategic 10 combat moves
27x2 damage
98 HP

Inventory : ~300
Cost : 286/0/0
~300/turn
8x54 damage

How it works is you make a large transport ship wherever you want the units delivered and give it to me. You gift me the transport ship along with the money. I drop the units in the transport ship and give you it back.

Later I'll be offering more services, probably the wholesale fortification and mining of warp points with 50 move ships for a flat rate. That will be expensive though since you'll have to buy 100 sats/mines at once, and pay me the deposit for the worth of the 50 ship fleet.

If two or more people want the same thing, I will sell to the highest bidder. Currently the Centauri have most of my merchant fleet, but once they give it back I can start delivery right away. Since it takes time for messages and a hassle to click I prefer if you buy units from me in the thousands rather than the hundreds.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-10-28 10:38am

Brian has now indicated that he didn't really have to rename the ships or do the 900 unit gift if we rolled back. Seeing as how the AI borked my turn all to hell, I can imagine it must have done the same to Kojiro. I didn't want to have to sort all that damage out, and neither should he. So we'll be rolling back.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-10-28 01:14pm

Kojiro, I notice that your ambassadorial vessel has left the Cooke system. Has the Vorlon Empire withdrawn from the M6 Council?

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-10-28 10:35pm

brianeyci wrote:Gups also did a good job by keeping the League agenda separate from the Shadow agenda. It's not like the League suddenly sent 350 ships to start killing the Vorlons or Minbari which they could have, and Gups even kept the Yolu/Hurr/Hurr reserve fleets separate to maintain Hurr/Yolu national identity when the right thing to do if he was powergaming would've been to kept all three fleets together on the Q27 to Cooke jump gate (if he had, the Minbari and Vorlons would've lost). He did a good job with the League and kept their motivations separate from the Shadows.

Thanks Brian. It didn't surprise me that all the effort I put into trying to build the LNAW into a fully RPed faction was ignored - people have been treading on my RP since page 1.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-28 10:58pm

I think Kojiro's just worried that the gift to the Centauri was just using the RP to shield against game mechanics and that once the Shadow fleet of doomTM arrived all the planets would go back to the Shadows. Now that the Centauri have a foothold here I doubt they'll give it up.

And the Vorlons can exterminate the Shadows whenever they want... send their hundred ships over to Zha'ha'dum with the Minbari and occupy it. I honestly don't see why they don't try. Now that the gloves are off there's nothing holding them back instead of the OOC agreement I assume you two still have, and eventually you guys are going to have to dump it and go all out. I'm surprised the Vorlons haven't started planet cracking

. But who cares about the way the show did it, Kojiro can play more benevolent, caring Vorlons if he wants.

As for the Vorlon buildup in Nocalo. The Yolu don't like it, in fact they hate it because of the Vorlon's record. I like the attack dogs idea you made up Kojiro, but that doesn't matter to the Yolu, all they see is a continual buildup of Vorlon ships and stationary bases, Vorlon ships that have had a record of wiping all life off the surface of a planet. Plus the Yolu are not too happy about the Vorlons having killed tens of thousands of their countrymen. All the Corporate Sector sees is a continual buildup of Vorlon fleet assets in Nocalo. The RP will be played accordingly, and if even more warships come into Nocalo there's going to be more rhetoric from all sides in my RP

. At the first chance the Yolu have, they will fight back. The Corporate Sector is more sane and won't start a war it can't win, and probably won't start a war at all because trade with the Vorlons brings in so much. But they are not too happy about the Vorlons killing off trade with the Brakiri and if it happens again shareholders will be pissed, maybe pissed enough to break treaty. To the Corporate Sector as usual all that matters is money.

Anyway there shouldn't be a need to explain IC RP OOC like this, I would think it was obvious. If the Vorlons are so convinced that the Shadows are still present all over the League, they can just take over all the League planets. I would.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-10-29 07:50am

brianeyci wrote:The Shadows never worked overtly, and the Yolu+Hurr+Corporate breakaway colonies never declared their allegiance to the Shadows...(snip)

What you don't realise is that the Vorlons and the Shadows had an agreement. The Vorlons gave the Shadows a system, complete with populace and newly built ancient shipyard. The Ancients were to cooperate to teach the Brakiri a lesson. The Shadows entered into an alliance with the Brakiri however, and tried to hide the return of their home planets and populace from the Vorlons. The Vorlons allowed a suitable time for their allies to reveal this information and share their plans, but the Shadows chose instead to keep it secret. Keeping secrets from both sides, playing one against the other. Vorlons don't take kindly to being betrayed, which was what they suspected the Shadows would always do. They did however learn much about the Shadow's status during this time, such as their control of the League.

brianeyci wrote: The Corporates got back Yolu Prime a few turns ago, which by the way has been under Corporate rule at one point or another since the beginning of the game. And the Vorlons start deploying first yards, then another twenty ships, then forty ships, then last turn they had over 98 ships there one jump away from Corporate space. It looks like a buildup to an invasion.

You must realise that *I* (and thus the Vorlons) had no idea you controlled Yolu prime. As far as we were concerned it was a League world, and thus in need of the same attention as the rest. I just figured it was gifted to you instead of the Centauri. It was more Corporate space expanding into our theater rather than us extending ours. It'd suck if the whole fear of an invasion was due to nothing more than our *assumption* that Yolu Prime was part of the League.

brianeyci wrote:Of course there is one way to settle things. Take all the League worlds for yourself. You know you want to .

I wouldn't say no but the main cause of action was a reprisal against the Shadows and to cripple their ability to make war. This has effectively been done.

brianeyci wrote:As for posturing there's been nothing in the RP that's been out in the open in M6.

Of course, but this isn't a proper narrative. There's no 'balance' to show the other side, and as demonstrated by Trogs, it's created the illusion of something happening that simply isn't. There has been, for example, no scene depicting the counter view, the adviser pointing out 'hey they've limited their actions to League space' or 'we've given them no reason to attack us'.

brianeyci wrote: It's allllllllllll about the jump gates, at least unless you have ramming ships or equal range.

I'm not fond of that. There's no way to come through a gate firing, nor is there any way to defend a warp point at range. I loathe the idea of building a bunch of gate defense ships with range 8 guns, even if the do 3k-4k damage. The devil of not being able to set up your fleet appropriately.

And Trogs, no I haven't left the council. Lyta is still there but one of her Vorlon is presently off elsewhere. The other remains sequestered away in his quarters in his war suit (which he will stay in so long as there are Shadows on board).

brianeyci wrote: As for the Vorlon buildup in Nocalo. The Yolu don't like it, in fact they hate it because of the Vorlon's record. I like the attack dogs idea you made up Kojiro, but that doesn't matter to the Yolu, all they see is a continual buildup of Vorlon ships and stationary bases, Vorlon ships that have had a record of wiping all life off the surface of a planet.

The annoying thing is that I'd rather not have glassed those planets. It's something I'm stuck with, but then so should the Brakiri be (who nuked a planet as well up north). I can fully appreciate someone being twitchy about such a fleet in orbit however.

brianeyci wrote: I think Kojiro's just worried that the gift to the Centauri was just using the RP to shield against game mechanics and that once the Shadow fleet of doomTM arrived all the planets would go back to the Shadows.

To some extent, but it's more that the Vorlons *know* there were Shadows there. They gave us ships and the Ambassadorial Flyer even visited there. The Vorlons have absolutely not reason whatsoever to believe the Shadow presence is gone, and it would be naive of them to do so. Realistically there would almost certainly be some residual presence, from buried ships to plague dispensers. Possibly even planet destroying technology, like they left at Zha'ha'dum. Simply declaring 'they're all gone' wouldn't convince anyone any sort of resistance was gone, let alone booby trap. Certainly not invisible, 'stealth is out thing ' subtle infiltrator resistance/booby traps. It would be grossly out of character if, with Londo down on the planet screaming 'they're gone, we're clean!' for the Vorlons to just go 'oh, ok, cool, we'll see you round'.

And I'd love to go take out the Shadows, but those pesky Brakiri would inevitably get in the way.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-10-29 09:38am

What planet did I glass 'up north', aside from the uninhabitated colony of yours? To my knowledge, I've never glassed a world.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-29 10:01am

Kojiro wrote:What you don't realise is that the Vorlons and the Shadows had an agreement. The Vorlons gave the Shadows a system, complete with populace and newly built ancient shipyard. The Ancients were to cooperate to teach the Brakiri a lesson. The Shadows entered into an alliance with the Brakiri however, and tried to hide the return of their home planets and populace from the Vorlons. The Vorlons allowed a suitable time for their allies to reveal this information and share their plans, but the Shadows chose instead to keep it secret. Keeping secrets from both sides, playing one against the other. Vorlons don't take kindly to being betrayed, which was what they suspected the Shadows would always do. They did however learn much about the Shadow's status during this time, such as their control of the League.

You moved a fleet to share the same square as Brad's fleet to gank their warp point defense. Are you saying you're not aware of this? The Brakiri baseships the League had would've slaughtered anything Vorlon had they controlled the jump gate. Instead you shared the jump gate, and without warning attacked, taking advantage of SE:IV's stupid combat system where if two allies shared the same point the battle counts as a normal fight instead of a chokepoint. I was worried this would happen to the Corporate Sector, or to EA. Do you know how powerful your ships are? In open space when it's not a chokepoint you can kill anything ten to one, twenty to one, a hundred to one if they don't have sufficient range. You can hit other ships at 19 range and they cannot hit back.

You must realise that *I* (and thus the Vorlons) had no idea you controlled Yolu prime. As far as we were concerned it was a League world, and thus in need of the same attention as the rest. I just figured it was gifted to you instead of the Centauri. It was more Corporate space expanding into our theater rather than us extending ours. It'd suck if the whole fear of an invasion was due to nothing more than our *assumption* that Yolu Prime was part of the League.

Yolu Prime was part of the League until the League was disbanded, then they reverted to Corporate. Yolu Prime was taken over by Marxis early on and is definitely within our sphere of influence.

The Yolu hated Marxis's reign, and that kind of extends to the new CS too, but everybody else is worse. Yolu Prime is the CS's East Germany and only joined the League after Marxis left and the CS went to pieces. There was a lot of wrangling between the EA and CS over Nocalo early on.

Of course there is one way to settle things. Take all the League worlds for yourself. You know you want to .
I wouldn't say no but the main cause of action was a reprisal against the Shadows and to cripple their ability to make war. This has effectively been done.

That's what you think. The Shadows and Brakiri will be back and there will be a reckoning. I know you noticed the 150 HBS. Why only 150? Because those are the worst ships he has, obsolete.

Of course, but this isn't a proper narrative. There's no 'balance' to show the other side, and as demonstrated by Trogs, it's created the illusion of something happening that simply isn't. There has been, for example, no scene depicting the counter view, the adviser pointing out 'hey they've limited their actions to League space' or 'we've given them no reason to attack us'.

That is not my responsibility. What you don't realize is that people are RPing consistent with their point of view. What you did by putting one hundred ships one jump away from Corporate and EA space was the equivalent of the Warsaw Pact mobilizing 100 divisions and pushing them up to the border. Something did happen, something that required action, at the very least recoding jump gates if we were to ensure the same thing didn't happen to the EA and CS as did happen to the League. Not to mention the Vorlons sent special forces into Corporate space to kill/kidnap the Brakiri delegation to the CS. Lots did happen and to any outside observer it looks like groundwork for an invasion.

If the narrative is unbalanced you can RP the Vorlons talking to the Minbari, Lyta voicing doubts to her Vorlon masters about such a wide military deployment, Lyta talking with O'Hare, whatever. I'm not responsible for the Vorlon point of view.

I'm not fond of that. There's no way to come through a gate firing, nor is there any way to defend a warp point at range. I loathe the idea of building a bunch of gate defense ships with range 8 guns, even if the do 3k-4k damage. The devil of not being able to set up your fleet appropriately.

The Vorlon's advantage (and the Centauri's and the Minbari's and the Shadows and the EA LMSB) is their range. You did not know this? The only way to fix it would be to redo the whole modification from the ground up. You want to come through a gate firing, get SE:V.

You want to defend a gate from range, do the same thing you did with Brad. Share the same gate with the Minbari. When two allies share a gate in SE:IV, it glitches and considers the battle as a normal battle instead of a choke point defense. It's how the Vorlons beat the League Black Sabbath.

The annoying thing is that I'd rather not have glassed those planets. It's something I'm stuck with, but then so should the Brakiri be (who nuked a planet as well up north). I can fully appreciate someone being twitchy about such a fleet in orbit however.

Everybody saw it, it was a big deal M6 with G'kar and the Minbari nearly going to war over it. The Brakiri are isolationist and have locked down their borders. Yes you're stuck with it, but so is the CS with Marxis's former actions.

To some extent, but it's more that the Vorlons *know* there were Shadows there. They gave us ships and the Ambassadorial Flyer even visited there. The Vorlons have absolutely not reason whatsoever to believe the Shadow presence is gone, and it would be naive of them to do so. Realistically there would almost certainly be some residual presence, from buried ships to plague dispensers. Possibly even planet destroying technology, like they left at Zha'ha'dum. Simply declaring 'they're all gone' wouldn't convince anyone any sort of resistance was gone, let alone booby trap. Certainly not invisible, 'stealth is out thing ' subtle infiltrator resistance/booby traps. It would be grossly out of character if, with Londo down on the planet screaming 'they're gone, we're clean!' for the Vorlons to just go 'oh, ok, cool, we'll see you round'.

And I'd love to go take out the Shadows, but those pesky Brakiri would inevitably get in the way.

The Corporates are not the Vorlons. The Centauri are not the Vorlons. The Earth Alliance are not the Vorlons. The Dilgar are not the Vorlons. When you say "it shouldn't convince anybody", what you are doing is telling other people OOC about a problem you should be dealing with IC. Maybe you don't like being outmaneuvered IC, but coming out OOC and saying "don't believe that, X, Y, Z" is not right. Fair and balanced is not my responsibility.

I don't understand the problem. The Vorlons are so convinced the League worlds have Shadow technology, take them. Either that or don't take them and just fly around and piss people off. Why do you have to bring it up OOC? People can RP how they want. If you want an option between take them out or piss people off, you can write one or two RP's to clear the air with Minbari talking to the Vorlons or Lyta talking to the Minbari (since the Vorlons are annoying to RP). I know the Vorlons are annoying to RP, but if their actions are overtly hostile and you're getting pissed nobody is "getting" them well, that's just the shit of it isn't it.

As for the Brakiri getting in your way, they can't at least until they get their jump gate defenses up. Do you know how powerful your ships are? In open space the Brakiri and all other YR are your bitches, if you fire from maximum range and design your ships properly. YR can only face off against Vorlons when armed with Centauri/Minbari weapons, or holding a jump gate. But you can do whatever you want. I'm just worried there will be a shitstorm when Brad and Art go for the throat and you come back and say "I held back so you should too..." if I were you I wouldn't hold back, I would attack, try and exterminate the Shadows. If you don't, that's fine, but please don't come back later and ask Brad and Art to pull their punches is all I'm saying.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-10-29 10:05pm

Kojiro wrote:What you don't realise is that the Vorlons and the Shadows had an agreement. The Vorlons gave the Shadows a system, complete with populace and newly built ancient shipyard. The Ancients were to cooperate to teach the Brakiri a lesson. The Shadows entered into an alliance with the Brakiri however, and tried to hide the return of their home planets and populace from the Vorlons. The Vorlons allowed a suitable time for their allies to reveal this information and share their plans, but the Shadows chose instead to keep it secret. Keeping secrets from both sides, playing one against the other. Vorlons don't take kindly to being betrayed, which was what they suspected the Shadows would always do. They did however learn much about the Shadow's status during this time, such as their control of the League.

Of course I went shopping for new allies. You told me Nephtys was going to punk me out and you wouldn't do a thing to stop it!

It's pretty hilarious that the Vorlons are fifty billion times more duplicitous than the Shadows in this game.

I also think it's funny that you were afraid of the Centauri giving back the League worlds to me as part of some grand counterattack. Yeah, I've had Trogs in my back pocket since 2407!

Kojiro wrote:It would be grossly out of character if, with Londo down on the planet screaming 'they're gone, we're clean!' for the Vorlons to just go 'oh, ok, cool, we'll see you round'.

Isn't that exactly what happened in the show? As soon as the Shadow ships were blown up, the Vorlons moved on.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-10-29 10:34pm

Honestly I don't care how people RP. I just don't want it to turn into another big melodrama about who can do what or who can say what.

In my opinion the Vorlons have it pretty good, they've got the Minbari in their pocket and the EA doesn't have the balls to fight them (yet). The Shadows are smashed with less than 20 ships and the Vorlons have over a hundred. The only reason why you pulled in the first Shadow war was because of some problem or misunderstanding you had right? I assume that's over now? So don't feel compelled to give anybody mercy because I am sure Tuxedo won't give it (and why should he, in the beginning of the game you killed tons of his mining ships off and invaded his space with the Minbari).

I want someone to kill somebody, so it's over. It's been almost a year. Not that it isn't fun, but there's only so much you can do.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-10-29 11:19pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:What planet did I glass 'up north', aside from the uninhabitated colony of yours? To my knowledge, I've never glassed a world.

No no, it was one of the NPC races waaaaay back. The Grome I believe they were. You conquered some of them and glassed (the one I controlled) at least one of them.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-10-30 12:10am

Shit, you're right. I forgot about that. Oh well, I'll just think of some political doublespeak to sweep that right under the rug.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-10-30 12:21am

brianeyci wrote: You moved a fleet to share the same square as Brad's fleet to gank their warp point defense. Are you saying you're not aware of this? The Brakiri baseships the League had would've slaughtered anything Vorlon had they controlled the jump gate. Instead you shared the jump gate, and without warning attacked, taking advantage of SE:IV's stupid combat system where if two allies shared the same point the battle counts as a normal fight instead of a chokepoint.

Of course I'm aware of it. It's the only way to succeed in such an endeavor. No one has worried one iota about using the game mechanics to their advantage (24 move anyone, or ramming ships that can go further than weapons can fire?). The Shadows pretended to be the Vorlons friends and turnabout is apparently fair play.

brianeyci wrote: Yolu Prime was part of the League until the League was disbanded, then they reverted to Corporate. Yolu Prime was taken over by Marxis early on and is definitely within our sphere of influence.

That's unfortunately nothing more than a blunder of my part then. I thought it was League until the same time as the other planets, and simply went to you instead of Troggs. I'll remedy that when I get a chance.

brianeyci wrote: That's what you think. The Shadows and Brakiri will be back and there will be a reckoning. I know you noticed the 150 HBS. Why only 150? Because those are the worst ships he has, obsolete.

Oh I'm sure they are. I'm sure the Brakiri will continue to fund the Shadows as their 'ace'. What am I supposed to do? Let them keep the League so they can hit us harder when they get around to it?

brianeyci wrote: That is not my responsibility. What you don't realize is that people are RPing consistent with their point of view.

I don't think that's what people are doing. I think they're using the RP as another tool of strategy. I'm all for the narrative idea, but RP propaganda is more effort than I can be bothered with.

brianeyci wrote: You want to defend a gate from range, do the same thing you did with Brad. Share the same gate with the Minbari. When two allies share a gate in SE:IV, it glitches and considers the battle as a normal battle instead of a choke point defense. It's how the Vorlons beat the League Black Sabbath.

I'm aware of this I just wish we didn't have to 'abuse' the system to do something entirely reasonable. I'm sure SEV has a lot of advantages in this area.

The annoying thing is that I'd rather not have glassed those planets. It's something I'm stuck with, but then so should the Brakiri be (who nuked a planet as well up north). I can fully appreciate someone being twitchy about such a fleet in orbit however.

brianeyci wrote: Yes you're stuck with it, but so is the CS with Marxis's former actions.

There's a huge difference between a new player not understanding controls and what you RP. Huge.

brianeyci wrote: The Corporates are not the Vorlons. The Centauri are not the Vorlons. The Earth Alliance are not the Vorlons. The Dilgar are not the Vorlons. When you say "it shouldn't convince anybody", what you are doing is telling other people OOC about a problem you should be dealing with IC. Maybe you don't like being outmaneuvered IC, but coming out OOC and saying "don't believe that, X, Y, Z" is not right. Fair and balanced is not my responsibility.

This is partially due to the confusion as to the status of the Ancients. At some points in the RP they're 'returned', at others they never left and there was no war. The Shadows however are not an unknown this time around. They have a presence on M6 even. Either way it's not even about it being the Shadows, it's about enemy territory simply declaring itself friendly. If the Brakiri made it to Vorlon, you think the fact it suddenly switched to navy blue would make them just turn around and go home?

As far as being outmaneuvered IC, that's the difference between, as I see it, the propaganda and the actual RP. As I've said, Lyta is neither a diplomat nor do the Vorlons keep her particularly well informed. I cannot be bothered to construct elaborate propaganda as RP. You aren't presenting the Corporate point of view, you're presenting the most useful point of view that can be justified.

brianeyci wrote: People can RP how they want.

Sure they can. It's obviously Trogs fault he thought I was attacking you and certainly nothing to do with your method of writing.

brianeyci wrote: If you don't, that's fine, but please don't come back later and ask Brad and Art to pull their punches is all I'm saying.

Man, the only reason Guppy is even back in the game is he thought he'd have a chance to get back at me. I don't mind Arthur going all out for me, that's kinda cool. I don't have a problem losing, but like any game, it should be fun whether you win or lose.

Guppyshark wrote: Of course I went shopping for new allies. You told me Nephtys was going to punk me out and you wouldn't do a thing to stop it! It's pretty hilarious that the Vorlons are fifty billion times more duplicitous than the Shadows in this game.

I told you she was sus about the planets I gave you in my space, and if I had to choose between you I'd choose her. And why on earth would you be surprised the Vorlons are crafty? They were never exactly up front in the series, or are you just assuming the Shadows had the market on scheming? Or perhaps I forgot that it's only scheming when I do it. You got fucked up last time because you took the 'out of game information' and used it 'in game', just like I suspected you would. Then you have the audacity to rail on me for 'lying to you' when it was clear you were using said information against me. Forgive me for not shooting myself in the fucking foot.

Guppyshark wrote: I also think it's funny that you were afraid of the Centauri giving back the League worlds to me as part of some grand counterattack. Yeah, I've had Trogs in my back pocket since 2407!

Yeah, I was never afraid of that. I'm just annoyed the system would force me to break my alliance with Trogs to do what we came to do.