FSTGOD1: A Cool Idea

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2004-09-29 04:54am

Is this going to be run along with STGOD5? I'm still keen on doing a space based one.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-29 08:07am

Is this going to be run along with STGOD5? I'm still keen on doing a space based one.

I don't think I'll be able to mod this STGOD while playing another, ergo, at least I'm not interested in running both at once.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-29 08:22am

I think it would be best to wait a little bit until a STGOD5, if just to avoid "burnout"

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-09-29 08:30am

Agreed(and can we do something with a lower tech level... say B5 level when we do?)

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2004-09-29 10:44am

At the end, I managed to prevent the shit from hitting the fan. May I join this one? The premise seems to be very interesting.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-29 11:31am

Spyder wrote:Is this going to be run along with STGOD5? I'm still keen on doing a space based one.

I think everybody is still keen on jumping into STGOD5--just not for a few months. I especially don't want to have anything to do with a space-based STGOD until I've had some time off, because I was under a fairly large amount of pressure as moderator (and chief plotter for the Axis).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-29 11:33am

Wait. Agent Fisher, your ships are way the hell too long. 150 meters? Your boarding craft are bigger than most people's mainline warships.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-29 11:50am

Rogue 9 wrote:Wait. Agent Fisher, your ships are way the hell too long. 150 meters? Your boarding craft are bigger than most people's mainline warships.

The best galleys of the era might be as long as 60 meters, with crews of 180+ in three stacked rows (a trireme). Despite the presence of a powerful metal-tipped ram under the waterline for sinking enemies, the primary battle tactics would be bombardment with projectiles and boarding actions. These ships are low endurance and cannot go into blue water at all; they must hug the coast or stay in well-established trading lanes as well as making regular stops for food and water.

You would only get triremes if you invest regiments--a nation like mine would probably have single-decker galleys with much smaller crews. They would therefore be less maneuverable and much less effective in boarding actions.

Sailing ships are extremely limited in maneuverability for this era and cannot even tack the wind, which means that if it doesn't blow their way, they aren't going anywhere. Their only advantage would be superior cargo capacity and therefore superior endurance. Sailing ships might be longer than galleys, as well as being much taller and wider across the beam. In combat, they would be little more than targets.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-29 12:03pm

I would like to remind people that this a roughly Imperial Rome tech level. Full Plate would be non existant. Steel is expensive. Magic won't change that much, because magic wouldn't be cheap. There is a reason why I can only field two regiments with breastplates. Average armor would be lamellar armor, or loricated armor. Below average would leather, padded, or none.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-29 12:56pm

Sorry for the lack of feedback everyone, but the latest hurricane finally swept up by my way and knocked out my cable modem in my house. ETA to restoration of service by COMCAST is currently unknown, but I should be back online fully (well, as fully as I can be) inside of a few days at most. Until that point, I will be utilizing computer labs on campus and such to get things done.

Concerning the white spaces, yes, they will consist of various barbarian tribes, sub-regional powers, and that sort of thing. If people intend on making conquests out that way, it would be an acceptable move, but you will meet resistance along the way.

As far as naval power goes, I will admit I haven't hammered out a solid system just yet. As a preliminary, I would suggest that one regiment buys you X naval ships, then you buy better equipment, crew, and magical support on top of that, same as with regiments.

Offhand, I would say 5 ships per 1 regiment "point" might be acceptable for an average warship. Thoughts?

Galleys, Triremes, Dromondaries, I think would be acceptable ships, with Galleys being the assumed ships you would have, Triremes being the average warship, and Dromondaries being akin to the "supership" or flagship analog. Again, thoughts and comments are welcomed.

While I'm here, I think I'll make a point about covert operations. I think it is safe to assume that every nation has spies and assassins of reasonable quality. If you want particularly bad-ass covert ops, at that point you would start to spend regiment points (to represent your funneling significant funds into the training, equipping, and so forth of your assassins and spies).

EDIT: Thirdfain and I have worked out a deal for the ships, it will be 10 average ships per regiment OR 5 heavy ships per regiment. Thus, the list will look like this:

1 Regiment Point =
2,000 Light Infantry OR Skirmisher
1,000 Heavy Infantry OR Pikemen
5,00 Cavalry (light OR heavy)
10 Average Naval Ships
5 Heavy Naval ships

Heavy Ships will equate to Triremes, while Average ships will equate to Viking Longships and the like, just for clarification

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-29 01:17pm

Hotfoot wrote:Heavy Ships will equate to Triremes, while Average ships will equate to Viking Longships and the like, just for clarification

Just a suggestion but I would suggest that the average ship simply be the standard cargo/merchant type from the Classic Age. Viking Longships are far more capable than people are giving them credit for and in this game having allowing everyone to have them would quickly prove disruptive.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-29 01:25pm

While I am rather secure, as my OOB has been ratified and found to be Good, any of this naval talk mean I need to rework the Principality's(Admittably devastating!) airpower?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-29 01:29pm

Stormbringer wrote:Just a suggestion but I would suggest that the average ship simply be the standard cargo/merchant type from the Classic Age. Viking Longships are far more capable than people are giving them credit for and in this game having allowing everyone to have them would quickly prove disruptive.

EDIT:
Wait, nevermind.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-29 01:38pm

SirNitram wrote:While I am rather secure, as my OOB has been ratified and found to be Good, any of this naval talk mean I need to rework the Principality's(Admittably devastating!) airpower?

I think you're more than set.

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Just a suggestion but I would suggest that the average ship simply be the standard cargo/merchant type from the Classic Age. Viking Longships are far more capable than people are giving them credit for and in this game having allowing everyone to have them would quickly prove disruptive.
EDIT:
Wait, nevermind.

Huh? What is it you were talking about?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-29 02:00pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:Heavy Ships will equate to Triremes, while Average ships will equate to Viking Longships and the like, just for clarification
Just a suggestion but I would suggest that the average ship simply be the standard cargo/merchant type from the Classic Age. Viking Longships are far more capable than people are giving them credit for and in this game having allowing everyone to have them would quickly prove disruptive.

I believe it is assumed that unarmed merchant vessels are free. Rather, Average ships refers to average warships. If the viking longboat example is a bit too much, then just assume a light warship of the era. If that happens to be little more than a civilian merchant ship with a full military crew, trained boarders and grappling devices, then that's what it is.

Another point I feel I should make: Slave rowers on military ships is a very bad idea. Rowers on military ships need to be well-trained and disciplined, as having just a few oars out of alignment could spell disaster in the heat of battle.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-29 02:02pm

SirNitram wrote:While I am rather secure, as my OOB has been ratified and found to be Good, any of this naval talk mean I need to rework the Principality's(Admittably devastating!) airpower?

You don't have to, but since nothing has started yet, if you'd like to make some minor changes, feel free to run them by me and we can talk about it, but otherwise, you're good.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-29 02:11pm

Hotfoot wrote:I believe it is assumed that unarmed merchant vessels are free. Rather, Average ships refers to average warships.

The difference up until the Age of Fighting Sail as it's called was never that sharp. True there were vessels built purposely for war but that was mostly just tacking on a ram to an existing type of vessel.

Hotfoot wrote:If the viking longboat example is a bit too much, then just assume a light warship of the era. If that happens to be little more than a civilian merchant ship with a full military crew, trained boarders and grappling devices, then that's what it is.

I think assuming a longship, particularly the later models, carries us more than bit beyond the range of our tech. I wouldn't have a problem with people trading in for them but as standard, no. For one thing they're much better sailing and fighting vessels than the standard Med galley types. And the endurance is quite simply specactular; the Vikings made it to North America after all, something a galley would never have done.

Hotfoot wrote:Another point I feel I should make: Slave rowers on military ships is a very bad idea. Rowers on military ships need to be well-trained and disciplined, as having just a few oars out of alignment could spell disaster in the heat of battle.

One can beat that sort of discipline into a slave or simply treat them well enough so that they perform. The former was certainly done as was the latter I believe. It can be accomplished certainly.

The one thing so many people overlook about slavery is that after a while almost any human being can be broken and cowed. Certainly history is replete with that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-29 02:23pm

Well, as for my own forces, I mostly want some concrete ruling on my speed as well as the range on Parasites. I've been told the Dreads, Mules, and Rights should be about as fast as a fast galley, but I don't really know what that means for flooring it from the Principality to distant lands. Beyond that, maybe a courier ship for diplomatic use.

As for baseline ships, I do agree the Longship goes too far. It opens up range that this game is obviously not yet ready for. Hopefully we can use time compression intelligently enough to eventually open up new frontiers, but we'll see.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-09-29 02:24pm

Stormbringer wrote:One can beat that sort of discipline into a slave or simply treat them well enough so that they perform. The former was certainly done as was the latter I believe. It can be accomplished certainly.

The one thing so many people overlook about slavery is that after a while almost any human being can be broken and cowed. Certainly history is replete with that.

One could make that argument; but historically slaves have never been used on warships.
I site Wikipedia:
"These difficult manoeuvers required a great deal of skill and concentration from the rowers: a single inexpert rower could throw the whole crew off their stroke. Trireme crews had to train hard and long, and were not slaves, but were recruited from the poor but free citizens of the city states, and paid well. Slaves drafted to the galleys in emergencies were freed first.Thus, the crew had a stake in the survival of their city and could be counted on to drill rigorously and to be reliable in combat."

I think it's very safe to assume that anyone using slaves on warships is going to find themselves at an amazing disadvantage.

I guess you can do whatever you want, but by using slaves you are putting yourself at a HUGE disadvantage. One of key strategies was to break the enemy ship's oars, thus rendering them unable to manuver, at least for the time. If your men aren't trained to fight this way you'll find your fleet in the middle of the sea unable to move.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-09-29 02:26pm

I'll take a little mulligan, my Longships lack the flexible, clever construction of their realword counterparts, and as such, are not capable of blue ocean travel.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-29 02:30pm

SirNitram wrote:Well, as for my own forces, I mostly want some concrete ruling on my speed as well as the range on Parasites. I've been told the Dreads, Mules, and Rights should be about as fast as a fast galley, but I don't really know what that means for flooring it from the Principality to distant lands. Beyond that, maybe a courier ship for diplomatic use.

I'll figure out the distances for you in a bit. As for the parasites, I'm assuming you mean the mosquito and bumblebee craft? I'd probably consider them to be like gryphon and a drake (in this case, I mean a smaller dragon-type creature), respectively. Sound reasonable?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-29 02:31pm

Hotfoot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Well, as for my own forces, I mostly want some concrete ruling on my speed as well as the range on Parasites. I've been told the Dreads, Mules, and Rights should be about as fast as a fast galley, but I don't really know what that means for flooring it from the Principality to distant lands. Beyond that, maybe a courier ship for diplomatic use.
I'll figure out the distances for you in a bit. As for the parasites, I'm assuming you mean the mosquito and bumblebee craft? I'd probably consider them to be like gryphon and a drake (in this case, I mean a smaller dragon-type creature), respectively. Sound reasonable?

Works for me. They work out to be about the same as aerial cavalry, I just employ them in large numbers.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2004-09-29 02:37pm

Thirdfain wrote:I'll take a little mulligan, my Longships lack the flexible, clever construction of their realword counterparts, and as such, are not capable of blue ocean travel.

I'd like to point out that it would be very difficult for a longships and other single decked galley's to "attack" larger two decked Triremes and Dromaries... I'd think their use would be mainly troop transport (which may be what they are used for I suppose).

Speak of troop transport. How many "men" (rowers included) could a single deck galley (or longship or whatever) hold? On average...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-29 02:49pm

InnocentBystander wrote:One could make that argument; but historically slaves have never been used on warships.
I site Wikipedia:
"These difficult manoeuvers required a great deal of skill and concentration from the rowers: a single inexpert rower could throw the whole crew off their stroke. Trireme crews had to train hard and long, and were not slaves, but were recruited from the poor but free citizens of the city states, and paid well. Slaves drafted to the galleys in emergencies were freed first.Thus, the crew had a stake in the survival of their city and could be counted on to drill rigorously and to be reliable in combat."

I think it's very safe to assume that anyone using slaves on warships is going to find themselves at an amazing disadvantage.

I'm aware of how it was done in the classical age. However the christian kingdoms of the Med used slaves in their gallies; hell the Spaniards used them into the Napoleanic era with slave/convict crews. Yes there is a danger, but provided you don't spare the lash and maintain the oversight it can be made to work.

InnocentBystander wrote:I guess you can do whatever you want, but by using slaves you are putting yourself at a HUGE disadvantage. One of key strategies was to break the enemy ship's oars, thus rendering them unable to manuver, at least for the time. If your men aren't trained to fight this way you'll find your fleet in the middle of the sea unable to move.

Me, I'm using actual sailing vessels rather than oar driven monstrosities. (And yes, I cleared that). So I'm not using slaves at all.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-29 02:51pm

I welcome people to use slaves or untrained rowers. The effect of a rocket bursting admid ships will be about the same as firing a rocket into a big sail: The ship stops.