Moderator: Thanas
From: United Protectrates State OfficeTo: UP Diplomatic Office
From: SKM Foreign Ministry
(in response to a post a few pages ago)
The Star Kingdom of Manticore would be happy to exchange ambassadors.
Thank you, we understand that you wish to defend an ally. Such is laudable and noble. We do not ask you to let them be attacked. We merely wish to see that they do not turn into colonial exploiters.Thirdfain wrote:<< The Hajr respects the decisions of the Asgard Empire, and the words of their leaders. We will of course oppose any open agression against the Etern, but give our support and request the right of sending observers to monitor the Etern expansion.>>
Rogue 9 wrote:"My question," began Michael Brisbane, the Nashtari/United Protectorates joint representative, "is how far is this going to go? Hospitals are all well and good, but I somehow doubt that you will stop here. Your admission that you tell the natives that it is magic is particularly disturbing; once that impression is fostered it is not easily broken. You are setting yourselves up as gods, sir, and this puts you in an ideal position for unresisted colonialism and exploitation; who, after all, would gainsay their supposed gods?" He snorted. "I somehow doubt that this setup is coincidence or borne of pure benevolence.
"If administering health care to the sick and needy, providing ample food, and defending those who cannot yet defend themselves is 'encroachment', what would you have us do? Let them starve and die, so you can tell yourself you did not violate some silly little lie you tell yourselves in bed? Would you prefer to visit the worlds who rejected our offers, where they still live in mud-huts?""Furthermore, we were supposedly invited to observe negotiations with the natives. You are presenting us with a fait accompli instead, with the natives already subjugated by your purported 'magic.' This is not acceptable. The damage may be partly done, but neither the Republic of Nashtar nor the United Protectorates will stand for this to continue. You have subverted your word and set yourself up to conquer twenty four planets without ever firing a shot. We demand that you cease these activities at once and freeze your encroachment upon these planets."
"And you think that believing you to be wizards is any better for their ability to rationally decide whether to join you or not? By the second generation it will be too late; their independence will already be surrendered to the Etern."SirNitram wrote:Rogue 9 wrote:"My question," began Michael Brisbane, the Nashtari/United Protectorates joint representative, "is how far is this going to go? Hospitals are all well and good, but I somehow doubt that you will stop here. Your admission that you tell the natives that it is magic is particularly disturbing; once that impression is fostered it is not easily broken. You are setting yourselves up as gods, sir, and this puts you in an ideal position for unresisted colonialism and exploitation; who, after all, would gainsay their supposed gods?" He snorted. "I somehow doubt that this setup is coincidence or borne of pure benevolence.
"Sir." The Etern diplomat said sternly. "I do not blasphemy your ideals of a benevolent deity who may smile upon you. I ask you do not bring down the Four Faces upon us all with your talk." The man made a superstious symbol with his hands to try and ward off the ancient dark powers that ever waited for the Etern. "We are not purporting ourselves Gods.. At best, wizards. And as you will see in the negotiations we are moving to next, we are offering to teach them to use this magic themselves. They will become wizards. Yes, yes. You say it is all technology. Mere words. Their next generation will be taught how to work it in the best schools of Known Space; some in Nashtar are even selected. They will know it for what it is." The man shuddered again. "Us.. Be gods. No man could be that cruel."
"Our civilizations did not starve and die out. Obviously neither did yours. Do you give a child all her needs from infancy, providing everything and teaching nothing? When such a child reaches adulthood, having had everything provided for her all her life, she will not know how to fend for herself. A society, like that child, must grow; attempting to transform one instantly is destructive. If we had all been handed our wondrous technology from some benefactor, would we advance like we do today? No. Such handouts result in stagnation, and stagnation is the surest death of a society. Such is what you're giving them.""If administering health care to the sick and needy, providing ample food, and defending those who cannot yet defend themselves is 'encroachment', what would you have us do? Let them starve and die, so you can tell yourself you did not violate some silly little lie you tell yourselves in bed? Would you prefer to visit the worlds who rejected our offers, where they still live in mud-huts?""Furthermore, we were supposedly invited to observe negotiations with the natives. You are presenting us with a fait accompli instead, with the natives already subjugated by your purported 'magic.' This is not acceptable. The damage may be partly done, but neither the Republic of Nashtar nor the United Protectorates will stand for this to continue. You have subverted your word and set yourself up to conquer twenty four planets without ever firing a shot. We demand that you cease these activities at once and freeze your encroachment upon these planets."
The Etern bowed somewhat to the Ouster, an odd show of respect out of the blue. "My apologies, Lady Voice. I will explain."Thirdfain wrote:"Interesting choice of words."
The Voice of the Hajr, Aleksandra su Miitgar, interjected.
"What sort of methods to you intend on using to promote the growth of proper unfiied governments on these worlds? What stops the local shaman from using what you teach him to become a master over his people, removing their freedom through the power his connection with the Sky Wizards grants him?"
"It is a complicated thing, moving from these times to spacefaring. Scales become hard to judge. People talk of technological differences.. They mean nothing. The problem is in unifying the disparate powers of each world together. Here is where I must admit, ladies and gentles, to being less than a perfect man. In order to unite the tribes of this and other worlds, we have used fear. We have shown them what lies beyond the border of the sky. Both our enemy, the dreaded Machine Demon, and the warring powers of Known Space. We are teaching them about proportional representation in government.." A tired sigh. "Forgive me. That is a tiresome thing to teach primitives. I can barely fathom how my kind were like that a mere five centuries ago."She made an odd little gesture, and then smiled.
"Please explain your social plans for these primitives."
To: Thebes Planetary GovernmentBugsby wrote:From: Thebes Planetary Government
To: Asgard, UP, Nashtar, Etern
It has come to our attention that the recent expansions by the Etern have been viewed as a colonialist move. Many see it so, because they cannot fully understand a protectorate state. Yet we, as clients of a protectorate state, know what this arrangement entails. Although we are well aware that many view us as merely colonies of the Krell, we have our own robust political alndscape and function perfectly well on our own. The Krell merely provide us defense, and have done so for the past 100 years to complete satisfaction.
Because of our unique position to understand the demands of a protectorate, we put ourselves forward as possible moderators in this debate. Should you accept us, we will form a commission to oversee the manner in which the Etern carry out their protectorate, making sure that it is to the maximum benefit of the protected parties.
As the clients of a mercenary power, we are effectively complete neutrals in this matter. We hope that you will accept our offer.
"I am afraid I do not understand." Admitted the diplomat. "We are insuring they can use the technology themselves and have a hand in their own affairs. Yes, they will be full member-worlds of the Collective; is this bad? Should they be left alone to be conquered violently by the next power who does not care happens along? Or left to suffer the immense losses of life they can expect from uninterrupted development?"Rogue 9 wrote:"And you think that believing you to be wizards is any better for their ability to rationally decide whether to join you or not? By the second generation it will be too late; their independence will already be surrendered to the Etern."
"...Sir. You have no concept of my civilization." The Etern spoke softly. "We exist because there are powers in the universe who do not beleive in your naivete. We were enslaved, sir. You have met other powers who do the same. So, explain this to me: Why should we leave them to that fate? Because you beleive it would promote stagnation? We have not stagnated, and we stole our technology by force from the Machine Demon.""Our civilizations did not starve and die out. Obviously neither did yours. Do you give a child all her needs from infancy, providing everything and teaching nothing? When such a child reaches adulthood, having had everything provided for her all her life, she will not know how to fend for herself. A society, like that child, must grow; attempting to transform one instantly is destructive. If we had all been handed our wondrous technology from some benefactor, would we advance like we do today? No. Such handouts result in stagnation, and stagnation is the surest death of a society. Such is what you're giving them."
"Under your circumstances, it is understandable that you do not understand. We believe in the right of self-determination. These people should decide for themselves whether to be independent or to join you, and in their current state they are in no position to make that decision. In any case, you should not have made it for them."SirNitram wrote:"I am afraid I do not understand." Admitted the diplomat. "We are insuring they can use the technology themselves and have a hand in their own affairs. Yes, they will be full member-worlds of the Collective; is this bad? Should they be left alone to be conquered violently by the next power who does not care happens along? Or left to suffer the immense losses of life they can expect from uninterrupted development?"Rogue 9 wrote:"And you think that believing you to be wizards is any better for their ability to rationally decide whether to join you or not? By the second generation it will be too late; their independence will already be surrendered to the Etern."
"They need not meet that fate. Our concern is ensuring that they do not meet it at anyone's hands; not yours, not the Machine demon's if it were still functional, not even ours. You see the forced conversion of their society as a laudable goal. While your intentions may be high-minded, even the most well-intentioned theft of the right to choose one's own path is wrong. Your society had that right wrongfully stolen from you by the Overseer. This does not mean that others should have to meet the same fate, even if by gentler hands.""...Sir. You have no concept of my civilization." The Etern spoke softly. "We exist because there are powers in the universe who do not beleive in your naivete. We were enslaved, sir. You have met other powers who do the same. So, explain this to me: Why should we leave them to that fate? Because you beleive it would promote stagnation? We have not stagnated, and we stole our technology by force from the Machine Demon.""Our civilizations did not starve and die out. Obviously neither did yours. Do you give a child all her needs from infancy, providing everything and teaching nothing? When such a child reaches adulthood, having had everything provided for her all her life, she will not know how to fend for herself. A society, like that child, must grow; attempting to transform one instantly is destructive. If we had all been handed our wondrous technology from some benefactor, would we advance like we do today? No. Such handouts result in stagnation, and stagnation is the surest death of a society. Such is what you're giving them."
Rogue 9 wrote:"Under your circumstances, it is understandable that you do not understand. We believe in the right of self-determination. These people should decide for themselves whether to be independent or to join you, and in their current state they are in no position to make that decision. In any case, you should not have made it for them."
"You again imply we are not giving them their own voice. We asked them, sir. That is why there is negotiations we will be attending.(OOC: Once we get by the questions regarding the stuff shown) Are you going to now say we made them say yes? Mind controlled them, somehow?""They need not meet that fate. Our concern is ensuring that they do not meet it at anyone's hands; not yours, not the Machine demon's if it were still functional, not even ours. You see the forced conversion of their society as a laudable goal. While your intentions may be high-minded, even the most well-intentioned theft of the right to choose one's own path is wrong. Your society had that right wrongfully stolen from you by the Overseer. This does not mean that others should have to meet the same fate, even if by gentler hands."
"The man has a clue what his world is like before that, but when an entirely foreign and superior culture appears to him out of the sky, threatens him with tales of boogiemen from the stars, and offers protection if they will only join that culture, you present him with a massive outside context problem. What other decision could they have reasonably made with the information they had under the circumstances?"SirNitram wrote:Rogue 9 wrote:"Under your circumstances, it is understandable that you do not understand. We believe in the right of self-determination. These people should decide for themselves whether to be independent or to join you, and in their current state they are in no position to make that decision. In any case, you should not have made it for them."
"They made their decision. We asked them. You may have such silly ideas as a man has no clue what the world is like until he has discovered how an atom exists, or why the sky is blue, but they are in charge of their destiny. As we said, some rejected us. We left them alone."
"I am going to now say that if you come down from the sky and dazzle them with 'magic,' they are not in much of a position to say no. You admit to the Ouster representative that you intimidated them by showing them the terrors of the Overseer and the warfleets of the other nations, and presumably promised protection against these evils, one of which is gone and the other of which is not truly interested in attacking them, with possibly a few exceptions," he said pointedly. "I do not say that you took control of your minds and made them say yes, but I do say that in their eyes, after what you showed them and what you said, they would perceive very little choice in the matter. You did not directly force them, but you placed so much pressure upon them that there was little else that they could safely say.""You again imply we are not giving them their own voice. We asked them, sir. That is why there is negotiations we will be attending.(OOC: Once we get by the questions regarding the stuff shown) Are you going to now say we made them say yes? Mind controlled them, somehow?""They need not meet that fate. Our concern is ensuring that they do not meet it at anyone's hands; not yours, not the Machine demon's if it were still functional, not even ours. You see the forced conversion of their society as a laudable goal. While your intentions may be high-minded, even the most well-intentioned theft of the right to choose one's own path is wrong. Your society had that right wrongfully stolen from you by the Overseer. This does not mean that others should have to meet the same fate, even if by gentler hands."
Brisbane snorted. "Says the representative of a nation that razes worlds like this for raw resources. You, sir, are in no position to talk after your little 'mining operations.'"Dahak wrote:Etern space
Duke Nethington took quite an interest in the whole scene. The Etern seemed to be honest enough and just following their own, unique ways. Yet the implied moral superiority of the Nashtar representative was getting to him.
"So, Mr. Brisbane," his cristal-clear voice rang out, "you are denying those people a advancement just out of spite, out of some obscure notion that to further advance themselves they have to wade through endless suffering and death? Because, despite all your enlighted talks, that is what leaving them alone would also entail. Plagues, illnesses, wars. Numerous deaths. I find it sickeing that you would let this happen before you allow the Etern to help people in need."
"Well," Nethington smiled cooly, "there was no sentient life on that planet, so your 'accusations' don't fly, as they say. These planets could have, under optimisitc conditions, developed civilizations such as this we are currently looking at, in some million years to come. But fortunately, that is not of our concern, as is the well-being of the nature in face of the resources those planets represented to us."Rogue 9 wrote:Brisbane snorted. "Says the representative of a nation that razes worlds like this for raw resources. You, sir, are in no position to talk after your little 'mining operations.'"Dahak wrote:Etern space
Duke Nethington took quite an interest in the whole scene. The Etern seemed to be honest enough and just following their own, unique ways. Yet the implied moral superiority of the Nashtar representative was getting to him.
"So, Mr. Brisbane," his cristal-clear voice rang out, "you are denying those people a advancement just out of spite, out of some obscure notion that to further advance themselves they have to wade through endless suffering and death? Because, despite all your enlighted talks, that is what leaving them alone would also entail. Plagues, illnesses, wars. Numerous deaths. I find it sickeing that you would let this happen before you allow the Etern to help people in need."
To: Collective Of EternSirNitram wrote:To: Interested parties, nations, and conglomerates.
From: Collective of Etern.
Re: Observers.
All those parties wishing to send observers to oversee the assistance of new members and end the unsupported accusations of lying against the Etern, please send your representatives to the following coordinates. Escort will be provided by the Etern's Fourth Home Guard Fleet, and will be visiting all two dozen worlds that will be entering our Collective. We request that all warships sent by the nations wait at the rendevouz point, for security reasons.
"Resources just as easily obtained on other, dead worlds in those very same systems, and how far did you really check for sentients anyway? But I digress."Dahak wrote:"Well," Nethington smiled cooly, "there was no sentient life on that planet, so your 'accusations' don't fly, as they say. These planets could have, under optimisitc conditions, developed civilizations such as this we are currently looking at, in some million years to come. But fortunately, that is not of our concern, as is the well-being of the nature in face of the resources those planets represented to us."Rogue 9 wrote:Brisbane snorted. "Says the representative of a nation that razes worlds like this for raw resources. You, sir, are in no position to talk after your little 'mining operations.'"Dahak wrote:Etern space
Duke Nethington took quite an interest in the whole scene. The Etern seemed to be honest enough and just following their own, unique ways. Yet the implied moral superiority of the Nashtar representative was getting to him.
"So, Mr. Brisbane," his cristal-clear voice rang out, "you are denying those people a advancement just out of spite, out of some obscure notion that to further advance themselves they have to wade through endless suffering and death? Because, despite all your enlighted talks, that is what leaving them alone would also entail. Plagues, illnesses, wars. Numerous deaths. I find it sickeing that you would let this happen before you allow the Etern to help people in need."
"No sir, we believe that under the circumstances you forced their hands and introduced a massive outside context problem into their culture. Think about it. If you were a member of a pre-warp culture, beginning to think highly of yourself as you mastered your environment and the problems facing you on your own, and then one day were confronted by strange beings descending from the sky wielding apparent magic, who threatened you with tales of other beings from the sky who will destroy you given half a chance unless you join the first magic-wielders, what would you think? Your entire perspective on life, your entire belief system, your perception of your place in the world, these have all just been wiped out in a span of minutes. What, then, would be your psychological reaction to this? I can tell you one thing. It would not be healthy.""In short, the Nashtar beleive there is no way they could make their decisions properly, because they are primitive."
"No, we would tell them nothing, nor would we even make overt contact, because we would not wish to instantly destroy their culture in a flash like that. When your entire world effectively ends around you, it is not good for your psyche, much less your culture.""You had your mind made up before you came. Very well. Condemn us if you insist. We are preventing death and disease, internal strife and the threat of invasion by less high-minded but naive powers than yourself. Call us the spawn of the Four if you desire. These people are our equals in spirit, now. They wished to join the collective, and we have no 'protectorates' or 'colonies'. They will be citizens when the negotiations end, and their leaders will stand with us in the chambers of wisdom. I ask you simply this: What would the Nashtar do, when finding these people? Tell them, high-mindedly, that they have no busy in what happens around them? That they deserve no hand in it, because it is too advanced?"
