Modding Space Empire IV Gold

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-03-01 08:40am

Kojiro wrote:Historically the vorlons didn't wipe the galaxy clean of anyone touched by the Shadows either. They're capable of more than just what we see of them in the series I'm sure. They're also not idiots and probably well aware that their previous strategy didn't work so well.

Actually, they are idiots. You're trying to apply Western total war doctrine to what is essentially a video game and philosophical debate in one.

You've just said that they've beaten the Shadows in three or four wars already.

Why are they allowing the Shadows to rebuild after each failed attempt to challenge Vorlon dominion?

Because exterminating or even occupying & pacifying them would be to admit that the Shadows were right, after all.

Your argument that the Vorlons must be idiots not to see that their prior strategies have failed requires that either:

1) They were, in fact, idiots that failed to see that their strategies had failed and that only now, the wisdom of Kojiro Kosh will set them right.

2) That their strategy of loose coalition-building, conservative opposition and then failure to capitalise upon victory in fact suited them quite happily since their objective was not to end the threat of the Shadows, only to put them in their place with a minimum of harm to the Vorlons.

You seem to have built up an idea of the Vorlon aims that doesn't quite gel with their recorded history. Where do you get the idea that the use of the Vorlon Planet-Killer was them 'going crazy'? They built the thing for a reason.

EDIT: For those wondering if I'm criticising the Vorlons because I'm playing as the Shadows in the SEIV B5 game, let it be known I've thought poorly of the Vorlons as soon as they started attacking populated planets to get at a couple of Shadows while watching the series, and even Kojiro will have to admit that. The intent of JMS was to show them both as unfavorable extremes, neither of whom had a useful vision for the future of the Younger Races, leading Sheridan to tell them to both STFU and GTHOOOG.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-03-01 10:55am

You've just said that they've beaten the Shadows in three or four wars already.

Well it's true. It's not really up for debate.

Why are they allowing the Shadows to rebuild after each failed attempt to challenge Vorlon dominion?

Because it allows the 'debate' to continue and they want to be right.

Because exterminating or even occupying & pacifying them would be to admit that the Shadows were right, after all.

Totally. As I said, I read that post from JMS that said in essence 'the vorlons could win only by admitting the Shadows were right'. It's a catch 22 for them.

Your argument that the Vorlons must be idiots not to see that their prior strategies have failed requires that either:

I said didn't work so well. Their strategies resulted in Shadow defeat each and every time. I said they didn't work so well, by which I mean they didn't finish the job. That was always their problem. See the catch 22.

You seem to have built up an idea of the Vorlon aims that doesn't quite gel with their recorded history. Where do you get the idea that the use of the Vorlon Planet-Killer was them 'going crazy'? They built the thing for a reason.

":Going crazy' is the term I believe Ivanova or Marcus uses. Clearly their actions are planned and clearly they've had enough of the Shadows. Perhaps this time they simply seek to end the cycle. Now I don't agree with wiping out any planet touched but I do think it's a good idea to end the threat.

As far as their history goes, last we heard of the Vorlons they wanted the Shadows really really dead.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-03-02 02:15am

(Leaving aside arguments about the Vorlons for other, more appropriate threads).

Nephtys, how did you get your ships to attack mine but not follow them through a wormhole? Silly me thought that was default so I just lost a fleet.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-03-02 03:21am

GuppyShark wrote:(Leaving aside arguments about the Vorlons for other, more appropriate threads).

Nephtys, how did you get your ships to attack mine but not follow them through a wormhole? Silly me thought that was default so I just lost a fleet.

Honestly? I have no idea. I think I just got lucky, ordering my fleet to hunt down that first battlecrap I caught alone... then I sat on the jumpgate, when your fleet came through. I'm stunned myself at the low chance of that... happening normally.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-03-02 03:26am

Nonsense, I watched that movement log very carefully. Last turn, you came in the north jump point, chased my fleet until the fleet jumped, then turned around and went towards Centauri Prime.

That's what I figured happened when you gave a ship attack orders and the target left the system.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-03-03 05:32pm

Did anyone not see that development in the RP thread coming? I mean really.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-03-11 10:20pm

I've been playing this entire game under a misconception.

I have been playing this as an RP game. I've left my home systems unmined, gone out of my way to avoid antagonising people, repeatedly offered the olive branch, etc etc. Worst of all, I've been trusting people.

RP is collaborative. Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik were not mortal enemies off the set, they were playing roles.

Kojiro and I met up at a pub last night and talked about it over a few drinks (probably more than a few for him, I haven't seen him around today

), and he admitted to me that yes, he has been knowingly lying to me outside the game, running MSN Strategy sessions, etc - basically doing everything in his power to ensure the Shadows are exterminated.

Well, fuck. If there's one thing I hate, it's playing a different game to the one others are.

If the Vorlons want a five-on-one gangrape, they can fucking well do it to an AI.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-11 10:56pm

Well I was not a part of these MSN strategy sessions and didn't know they existed. Although I don't see the problem in them. Standard SE:IV etiquette is as soon as you make contact you can communicate out of the game to strategize. If this was a normal SE:IV game it looks like you were outmaneuvered.

I didn't pay close enough to the situation or the balance of power. If I was, I would have been far more aggressive.

So it's over? There's 40 ships in your homesystem Gups and you can't defeat them? That's a shame kind of.

Unless you and Kijiro work something out, GG.

This problem will crop up in the ST game. The fault is partly mine. I didn't really make clear exactly what this game was when I created it, it's been fuzzy all along, but I was under the assumption that the Vorlons and Shadows would work together, under the ancient truce. But I didn't want to rely just on RP, I knew if I didn't build a huge fleet I'd be squashed, who doesn't want to conquer Raiders. So I built up a persona, and butressed my RP with game mechanics to make sure nobody could mess with me. It's easy to pump out 100 8k frigate sized ships in four turns. I didn't think that war would be so quick especially with the 25% bonus for homeworld defense, satellites, mines, and RP being that completely burning worlds to be non-kosher forcing troop deployments.

The other way to look at it is Kojiro beat you fair and square, no hard feelings. It's a pity though that the game'll degenerate to an FFA. Marxis can play the game, but Brian the Powergamer won't wait around for the Vorlons + EA + Minbari + Narns + Centauri. Of course Marxis has been working on the side, right now it looks like Dilgar + me + possibly Brakiri. Now here's the dilemma. I'm outnumbered. Should I strike now, or wait for massive fleets? If the gloves are off, and the whole RP has been a kind of charade to buy time for the Vorlons to wipe out the Shadows, I don't see why not.

Vorlons, you're on my hitlist, if you want to powergame you will have it

.

Brian

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-03-11 11:07pm

I liken my discussions with any player to akin to a game of Diplomacy. Sometimes they tell you the truth, sometimes they don't. If this were truly a colaborative effort, we'd just be writing a story. Fact is we're competing with RP flavour.

I didn't really make clear exactly what this game was when I created it, it's been fuzzy all along, but I was under the assumption that the Vorlons and Shadows would work together, under the ancient truce.

That was my initial idea too, but it became quickly apparent some people were viewing the ancients as returned, rather than unknown. The Vorlon/Shadow dynamic can't work if everyone knows who they are.

Vorlons, you're on my hitlist, if you want to powergame you will have it

It's not what I'm after. I haven't subjugated or wiped out any younger race, merely opposed the Shadows.

That said, if you attacked me now, I'd likely be in some trouble. Dealing with the Shadows is tying up most of my fleets. Or maybe not...

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-03-11 11:23pm

brianeyci wrote:If this was a normal SE:IV game it looks like you were outmaneuvered.

Except that it's not. If it was, the Narn and Centuari would have been wiped out long ago.

brianeyci wrote:So it's over? There's 40 ships in your homesystem Gups and you can't defeat them? That's a shame kind of.

I don't think I'm in any imminent danger. That's not the point.

brianeyci wrote:The other way to look at it is Kojiro beat you fair and square, no hard feelings.

I don't see it that way. I don't mind losing - I certainly have no issue with losing to Nephtys in the Trek game. What I don't like is losing because I'm playing a different game.

Kojiro wrote:I liken my discussions with any player to akin to a game of Diplomacy. Sometimes they tell you the truth, sometimes they don't. If this were truly a colaborative effort, we'd just be writing a story. Fact is we're competing with RP flavour."

Trogdor was able to deceive Defel without lying to GuppyShark. He strung the Shadows along, got a fourth homeworld out of it, and then told the Shadows where they could stick it.

It cost him that planet and another system, but he still managed to pull off the Diplomacy win.

It was done entirely in RP, and in-game messages from Mollari. The one time I sent him an OOC PM, he sent me a completely truthful PM back.

Oh yeah, the story is here.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-11 11:40pm

Kojiro wrote:The Vorlon/Shadow dynamic can't work if everyone knows who they are.

Rubbish, the Minbari knew who the Vorlons and the Ancient Enemy were, and I didn't know who the Vorlons and Shadows were. The Dilgar do, but I think that was explained as one of them going back through time or something, and the Narns do, but they're the exception. People can RP how they want. It was entirely you and Guppy's choice to turn this game to a killing spree. You guys started with a huge advantage.

I can have five hundred ships in ten turns. It's only a matter of time until you get a taste of your own medicine Kojiro

. If you lied to your friend in real life about how you were playing the game, well that's terrible.

I have to say to both of you, Guppy and Kojiro, because Tuxedo will never say this because he is the game administrator and has to appear impartial. But, I know he has not been impressed by bickering. I haven't either. Both of you started out with massive advantage, based on the fact that you'd both not take advantage. That's okay and you've both done a good job, but I was under the impression both of you had worked out together how'd you maintain balance until the end. That was important because everybody else started with a handicap. I also do not like the way there's been "you have to RP this way or that way", that was not present in the ST game and I don't know why it is here.

Tuxedo hasn't been playing the RP game (besides being busy) because he's not been impressed by it, shoehorning people into predetermined roles. If it there isn't an agreement between both of you Kijiro and Guppy, then when Tuxedo breaks loose on his genocidal rampage, I'm joining him and the galaxy'll be empty. I don't care what kind of agreement it is--play the game as a game of conquest or play the game as RP, but there's been enough silly fighting.

GuppyShark wrote:Except that it's not. If it was, the Narn and Centuari would have been wiped out long ago.

Well I could have wiped out all of you on turn 20. I knew exactly how to get 200 ships out by turn 15, and I knew nobody could stop me. I could have sent 50 here, 50 there, 50 there. Ask Uraniun, I had the troop transports and minesweepers to do it.

But that was a personal choice by me. I don't think we should blame Kojiro for playing a different way. If he lied to you, then that's different.

I'm not holding back anymore, if that's the way it's to be played. But whatever way it is, work it out. You guys still have technology better than anybody else.

<edit>I suggest sitting down and writing down on paper exactly what the victory conditions for the Shadows and the Vorlons are. That way there won't be any more misunderstandings. Either that, or admit that it's just a game of stocking up billions of ships until whoever has more and the right time and lets loose a big diarahea fart on the galaxy. I personally don't care which way it is, but accusations of unsportmanship are really getting on my nerves.</edit>

Brian

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-03-11 11:49pm

What a mess. What a damned mess. :/

When the game started and I suggested the mod, I figured the Vorlons and Shadows would be like the MOO Antareans or Orions. They'd appear briefly, work with diplomacy to get younger races against each other, etc. Instead of personally conquering planets and so on.

For one, I like the Dilgar and Narn conflict. That's genuine, and interesting to watch. Will the Dilgar hold the planet? Will the Narn counter-attack? That's a good war.

I felt that going to aid the Centauri would be helpful, then once I realized what was happening, I pulled out. But well. I really wish we'd pull some punches slightly sometimes.

Perhaps we should start an Adamant RP thread. Since that game is very open, and likely going to have many equal nations versus each other (as we'll all have probably one cluster, if we expand properly).

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-11 11:53pm

It is my mess. I take full responsibility, I created the game and didn't define exactly what the game was. Ideally it should have been the Vorlons and the Shadows writing down secret goals, and once those secret goals were accomplished then one side or the other would win. And if the younger races figure out the secret goals, the gig's up and ancients versus the YR.

Either that or there should have been no rules.

It's done, it's a game, it's not worth losing a friendship over Guppy and Kojiro.

Adamant RP thread sounds great, as long as we're 100% sure that game mechanics > RP since I know some people don't want to RP.

Brian

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-03-11 11:56pm

I just wished I hadn't been stuck in the middle of the damned war...

In any case, I'd be more than willing to start up an Adamant game RP thread. I know I'm not doing Londo justice and that makes me sad.

Kojiro · Post by **Kojiro** » 2006-03-11 11:58pm

It's done, it's a game, it's not worth losing a friendship over Guppy and Kojiro.

Don't worry about us. As Guppy said we talked out the situation last night. I"ll have a chat with him now again and we'll work something out to make the game interesting again.

As far as an Adamant RP goes...that'd be interesting.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-12 12:01am

Trogdor wrote:In any case, I'd be more than willing to start up an Adamant game RP thread. I know I'm not doing Londo justice and that makes me sad.

When I read your RP's I hear Jurasik's voice. You're fine.

The idea that people have to RP this way or that way is silly. The whole idea is to have fun

.

Brian

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-03-12 12:04am

I feel like my RPs are little more than just status reports for whoever happens to be reading the thread. I'm not terribly distressed about it by any means, and I still enjoy RPing (I'd stop if I didn't), but it bugs me slightly that I've been given this character that everybody says is great but I know so little about him.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-12 12:06am

Kojiro wrote:Don't worry about us. As Guppy said we talked out the situation last night. I"ll have a chat with him now again and we'll work something out to make the game interesting again.

It didn't sound like that to me at first, it sounded like Guppy was quitting the game and pissed at you--"
If the Vorlons want a five-on-one gangrape, they can fucking well do it to an AI."

.

As far as an Adamant RP goes...that'd be interesting.

Yeah, it would be interesting.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-12 12:09am

Trogdor wrote:I feel like my RPs are little more than just status reports for whoever happens to be reading the thread. I'm not terribly distressed about it by any means, and I still enjoy RPing (I'd stop if I didn't), but it bugs me slightly that I've been given this character that everybody says is great but I know so little about him.

Look at it this way, it's a compliment that you can do it so well after seeing just a bit of him. I invented a guy out of the blue and stumble around for ten posts (that's what I did with Marxis)

.

So what if he's not exactly like he's supposed to be, Marxis doesn't even exist!

Brian

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-03-12 12:27am

You invented a guy out of the blue and stumbled around for more than ten posts with Zargat, so you doing that with Marxis was no surprise.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2006-03-12 12:44am

Oh wow.

Guys, I wasn't expecting a huge production out of this.

Am I annoyed about being told lies to my face? Yes, but I'll get over it. Easiest way for me to do that is to move on, so I'm going to stop watching the thread, and I'm pulling out of the B5 game, which is a shame because it really was great fun.

Alshain v Marxis in RP is a rollicking good time, especially Alshain's last zinger, as is Narn v Dilgar. To watch the Dilgar do what no other race had the balls to do, with the Vorlons threatening to wipe them out, and overcome game bugs on top of it? Priceless. I think I'll keep reading B5 RP, don't want to miss that!

Adamant RP: I was half expecting such a thread to start anyway, just from the sheer love of RP...

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-03-12 01:13am

The way Alshain and Marxis go at it, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up married at the end.

(WATCH OUT VERA HE'S GONNA STEAL YOUR MAN'S HEART

)

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2006-03-12 01:14am

Uraniun235 wrote:The way Alshain and Marxis go at it, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up married at the end.

(WATCH OUT VERA HE'S GONNA STEAL YOUR MAN'S HEART )

No! This is role playing, not a bad fan fiction!

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-03-12 01:18am

Uraniun235 wrote:The way Alshain and Marxis go at it, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up married at the end.

(WATCH OUT VERA HE'S GONNA STEAL YOUR MAN'S HEART )

Or Marxis ejects Alshain into space.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-03-12 01:53am

Well, I hope we've learned some lessons here, but let's go over them again, just because I don't want what happened here to repeat itself in the new Star Trek game or in the Adamant game.

1. In-character misrepresentation is A-OK. Out-of-character misrepresentation isn't. A person shouldn't lie to someone via IM, e-mail, etc., nor should they mislead in an RP thread with the narrator voice. If you want to keep something under wraps, then obfuscate with language. For an example, you could have your character tell the fleet to "execute fleet order 22-3", without giving any indication what that means. But if you say "the Fuzzball Imperium fleet closes in on the Ubu Zubu home system," when in fact it's being sent after someone else's system, that's not cool.

2. Whining and bickering is bad. I've noticed a lot of it here, and it almost immediately turned me off to this game. In the ST game, Dalton got completely fucked over, but I didn't hear a word of protest from him. Brian used a few tactics that I felt were cheap (double minefields, for example), but I didn't complain about it, and neither did Trogdor. Brian and Nephtys didn't cry foul at Trogdor's super-torpedoes, and Trogdor and I didn't protest about Neph's supermassive ships. In this game, the grousing and complaining started before the game itself did.

3. Go easy on the criticism of others' RP. Not everyone knows a given franchise like the back of his/her hand, nor does everyone necessarily want to be constrained by said franchise. Some people just don't want to put in very much time and effort into a game, and there's nothing wrong with that. This is covered under #2, but it bears repeating, I feel.

4. There needs to be a consensus on whether a game is being played for RP or being played to win. If some people are RPing or just dicking around while others are building grand strategies, then that's not good.

5. Less pretentiousness in RP and in general would be good. This feeds into #3. If you don't instantly know what I'm talking about, I'm not really sure I can point to specific examples, but there's been a general feeling of high-handedness and taking the game way too seriously. Honestly, if people are dropping out and accusing others of lying to them, it shows that people are being too competitive about this.

I take the time to type this for the sake of the Adamant and new ST game, both of which will probably have people who will have much better tech than others, and people who will get shitty starting positions, opening up the same potential for problems that we saw here.

As for this game, I could honestly give less of a shit how it turns out, one way or the other. I won't make any secret of that. I wasn't too keen on a B5 game instead of Adamant in the first place, but I was willing to give it a shot. Then I got a whiff of the playground behavior and decided that I was just going to screw around in this game, not really caring about RP or whether I win or lose. I didn't even check the score until about turn 40, named all my ship designs after musical groups, and sometimes responded to carefully worded treaty proposals with nonsense like "Beware of strange mineral planets!"

Now that Brian has let the cat out of the bag, yes I am building up a large fleet, and yes I intend to wipe everyone off the face of the map with it. If someone wipes me out instead, I'm not going to sweat it. With the Adamant game underway and the new ST game just around the corner, my goal is to bring this game to a conclusion (at least for me) before the new ST game gets going.