Dwarf Fortress: General Discussion
Moderator: Thanas
- Nephtys
- Sith Acolyte
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In a more advanced UI game (IE, Evil Genius), the work of micro can be done by 'bosses'. Sure, make my minions follow tags or work queues or whatever. But I'd like to control each of my half dozen lieutenants directly, and have them organize the rabble to do specific tasks. Like get 6 people into the lab to work on a project, or command a squad into combat or something besides the 'pray my sniper spots an enemy, goes to a gun rack to get his gun, then runs back and shoots the target instead of deciding he wants dinner'.
- Starglider
- Miles Dyson
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A simple quota on how many 'do it now!' orders you can issue would be fine, to avoid exploits by diehard micromanagers. I've shelved my game because it was starting to need constant attention, but when I was playing I just wanted the ability to say things like 'move this specific stone blocking a critical door', 'get this building up ASAP' and 'kill this specific creature right now' every so often.Covenant wrote:Allowing me to give specific orders to specific Dwarves shouldn't be impossible. Why not let me have a Dwarf Lord who can summon Dwarves to his throneroom and tell them things?
But the game is still under heavy development. Additional AI tweaks would remove some of the reasons for issuing these specific orders (e.g. never drop items where they could wedge a door open).
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
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Yeah, this is especially bad in games like this, since the game isn't about "run the fucking show" but "let everyone play with themselves in your base". What the hell? I mean, seriously, can't I set a mealtime? All my soldiers should get chow when I say so, or I should be able to set a rotation. It's like The Sims. The people in The Sims are some of the most braindead retarded people you have ever seen. They are just mindlessly stupid, and yet they get mad at ME (essentially, the game punishes you) for failing to satisfy requests for more Dwarven Beer besides the fact that these people are the same fuckers who won't till my goddamn fields.Nephtys wrote:In a more advanced UI game (IE, Evil Genius), the work of micro can be done by 'bosses'. Sure, make my minions follow tags or work queues or whatever. But I'd like to control each of my half dozen lieutenants directly, and have them organize the rabble to do specific tasks. Like get 6 people into the lab to work on a project, or command a squad into combat or something besides the 'pray my sniper spots an enemy, goes to a gun rack to get his gun, then runs back and shoots the target instead of deciding he wants dinner'.
Now, for my minions, doing dumb stuff that gets them killed is fine. Letting them do their own thing is also fine, since that adds some extra confusion and fun to the mix. But I think it's very important that I be given the ability to bring assets to combat problems directly rather than relying on them to do things on their own, and yet never be able to really punish them for failure in a way that benefits me.
The real problem is with skilled minions who are much more specific, and who can really bring your city to it's knees when they decide to act retarded, and of course combat, and other hazards. When the game uses the stupidity of my own forces as a weapon against me, I take offense. I hate having to restart a game because someone did something brainless and I couldn't tell them to stop. I also can't say things like "clean this room of stones" or "get that anvil out of the doorway" or such.
- GuppyShark
- Sith Devotee
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- Ar-Adunakhor
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 672
- Joined: 2005-09-05 03:06am
The irony here is that Dungeon Keeper was released in 1997 but continues to be groundbreaking by virtue of nobody incorporating the ideas it had. Then again, it would probably be pretty tough to put some of that stuff in DF. The ability to order one unit around as you see fit would be a welcome addition, though, despite whatever headaches it would cause in coding.
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
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I think the addition of more Designation commands like 'clean', 'move items', or 'defend area' would solve a lot of disorder involving where dwarfs start their tasks.
But otherwise I haven't been having much problems with getting tasks done. Sure, getting steel made for my next set of forges and smelters was a pain (especially while trying to get them ready for a moody metalsmith), but for most important tasks I just set two to four dwarfs to do nothing but that job and maybe clean & haul garbage. It's nothing that I would complain about as a flaw in the core design or think wouldn't be spruced up in the next year or so.
But otherwise I haven't been having much problems with getting tasks done. Sure, getting steel made for my next set of forges and smelters was a pain (especially while trying to get them ready for a moody metalsmith), but for most important tasks I just set two to four dwarfs to do nothing but that job and maybe clean & haul garbage. It's nothing that I would complain about as a flaw in the core design or think wouldn't be spruced up in the next year or so.
By His Word...
- Starglider
- Miles Dyson
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DF could do with some more interesting mechanisms. There's plenty of scope without degenerating into steampunk. The floodgates are fun, but I'd really like those huge rolling stones from 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', they were cool in Dungeon Keeper. That would be a good replacement for the killer drawbridges actually, they require more skill to use without accidentally killing your own units and can only fire once before needing to be reset. Mine carts would also be good, and very dwarving; hauling all the rock away from new areas, or from distant seams to the forges takes ages, and mine carts+tracks could greatly speed that up.
- Ar-Adunakhor
- Jedi Knight
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The game automatically ending when you delve too deep (adamantium) is also another big gripe of mine. Why? Shouldn't we be able to carve out the entire mountain into an even more awesome version of Khazad-Dum? The adamantium roadblock will also need to be removed if they want to create a real "empire game" instead of one where you just occasionally get attacked or traded with by the other empires. What's the point of building the greatest fortress of all time if you can't engage in epic wars, after all?
Edit: Also, BDZing the chasm is awesome.
Edit: Also, BDZing the chasm is awesome.
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
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I think the current layout of landmarks and terrain features is for testing all the general gameplay features in one standard package. The next version coming out I know at least varies the placement and shape of the mountainside substantially, as well as opens up all map spaces for possible colonization; DF's webpage had pics of fortresses carved out of ice and caravans unloaded onto beaches with waves moving in an out. Since the big eventual function of fortress (and human city) building will be to populate the world with decades of player-made locations and empires, I imagine the number and placement of underground features and chances for demons will be mixed around a bunch, much in the same way we currently have ranges of temperatures and wildlife.
They've listed wheelbarrows to haul more items in as a feature to look into doing. There may also be prosthetics at some point, to give maimed Dwarfs hooks, peglegs, and eyeglasses. I also think medicines made at the alchemy shop would be good for reducing healing times, and may already be on their development list.Starglider wrote:Mine carts would also be good, and very dwarving; hauling all the rock away from new areas, or from distant seams to the forges takes ages, and mine carts+tracks could greatly speed that up.
By His Word...
I'd like to be able to assign a hierarchy of needs and importance, so that I could assign a "Master Mason" to my fortress who would take over Masonry tasks higher up on my Priority listing to get things done faster, whereas other people would handle more mundane tasks such as repeat-building doors, and for me to be able to re-arrange jobs the same way I arrange tasks in order to allow some to take precedence.
Now, once I get a manager dwarf, a lot of these issues get solved on their own. However, it's still not as good as I'd like, and it'd be nice if the Manager showed up before the Migrants did. I'm in my second summer and I've got like 50 lazyass dwarf migrants running around.
Honestly I'd almost prefer if the migrants arrived as peasents and farmers, which I could put to work hauling bullshit around or growing me some more Funky Mushrooms.
Another thing I want are tower cap spawn. I fucking need more trees. Or I wish I could send my own wagons out to buy things from people, like barrels. I have an unquenchable desire for barrels, and I'm going to have clearcut this entire fucking forest making wood for beds and barrels.
Something I'd really like is more prioritizing for certain things, and I would absolutely kill for the ability to carve a 'stone pit' into which I could simply drop stone. I'd also love for a way to polish a wall with material in it, and for a twice-polished wall not to look retarded. Dwarven Cement would be great, and you could also use it to do things like fill an area that you had previously dug out so that it's just normal stone again.
I'd really like a stable for animal husbandry, some place the animals would be automatically sorted to. I can't make stone cages and making them out of wood is a pain in the ass, and uses up my wood. I could make metal ones but I again need some fucking wood to turn into charcoal and that blows ass, since I need that wood for barrels and beds.
I really want the cement though. Then I could mine out an area for it's riches, and then fill it back in.
Now, once I get a manager dwarf, a lot of these issues get solved on their own. However, it's still not as good as I'd like, and it'd be nice if the Manager showed up before the Migrants did. I'm in my second summer and I've got like 50 lazyass dwarf migrants running around.
Honestly I'd almost prefer if the migrants arrived as peasents and farmers, which I could put to work hauling bullshit around or growing me some more Funky Mushrooms.
Another thing I want are tower cap spawn. I fucking need more trees. Or I wish I could send my own wagons out to buy things from people, like barrels. I have an unquenchable desire for barrels, and I'm going to have clearcut this entire fucking forest making wood for beds and barrels.
Something I'd really like is more prioritizing for certain things, and I would absolutely kill for the ability to carve a 'stone pit' into which I could simply drop stone. I'd also love for a way to polish a wall with material in it, and for a twice-polished wall not to look retarded. Dwarven Cement would be great, and you could also use it to do things like fill an area that you had previously dug out so that it's just normal stone again.
I'd really like a stable for animal husbandry, some place the animals would be automatically sorted to. I can't make stone cages and making them out of wood is a pain in the ass, and uses up my wood. I could make metal ones but I again need some fucking wood to turn into charcoal and that blows ass, since I need that wood for barrels and beds.
I really want the cement though. Then I could mine out an area for it's riches, and then fill it back in.
- Starglider
- Miles Dyson
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That would also fix the 'can't detail sections of wall that have ore or gems in them' issue (when your rooms happen to intersect ore veins). You could mine them out then replace them with normal rock.Covenant wrote:I really want the cement though. Then I could mine out an area for it's riches, and then fill it back in.
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- Jedi Council Member
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It lets me tell at a glance whether that dwarf walking towards new tunnels is a miner or just some dwarf deciding to fill up a stone stockpile with the farthest rock he can find, so I can determine whether or not to change his jobs without much effort. If a graphical upgrade makes a game easier to play, I'm not going to disparage it.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Man, the Roguelike text graphics are what's part of the appeal. If some people can't handle that, then I guess the game isn't really for them.
- GuppyShark
- Sith Devotee
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- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
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I read somewhere that polishing ore deposits will be included in the next alpha build, but I can't recall for certain that it'll remove the ore first instead of simply eliminate it.
Seriously, a lot of stuff is in the pipeline. There's a reason it takes 20 minutes to generate a world just to pick a spot to carve into a mountainside.
Also, this might be useful info on hauling:
Seriously, a lot of stuff is in the pipeline. There's a reason it takes 20 minutes to generate a world just to pick a spot to carve into a mountainside.
Also, this might be useful info on hauling:
Basically it does seem to be far more efficient to limit the range of tasks a single dwarf has active.Dwarf Fortress Wiki wrote:The number of hauling jobs queued by the system (visible on the [j]obs screen) will be equal to the number of haulers assigned to do that type of hauling. If you have 100 dwarves, all assigned to do all of the hauling labors (and you have sufficient items and empty stockpiles), then 100 items of each type will be reserved for hauling -- potentially bringing your fortress to a standstill until all the items get moved (which will take a very long time). For this reason, it is best to employ dedicated, specialized haulers: each dwarf should only have one (possibly two) hauling types enabled, so that items reserved for a hauling task are likely to be hauled immediately by an available dwarf, and all other items will remain available for any other use.
By His Word...
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
- Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
I'm eager to see how the various modes will get integrated, particularly if city-building with other races is implemented. Fortress and Reclaim mode could be straight-forwardly combined by adding variety to selecting the type of starting party and new versus abandoned locations, but I should look around to see what exactly is in mind for switching back and forth from Adventurer.
That reminds me, but I'd like to very soon have the option upon abandoning a fortress to use the same Dwarfs to create or claim a new outpost. Especially if I can set them up in-game to build some wagons, pick their supplies, and head out on their own, perhaps functioning like the trade depot's menus.
That reminds me, but I'd like to very soon have the option upon abandoning a fortress to use the same Dwarfs to create or claim a new outpost. Especially if I can set them up in-game to build some wagons, pick their supplies, and head out on their own, perhaps functioning like the trade depot's menus.
By His Word...
- Utsanomiko
- The Legend Rado Tharadus
- Posts: 5079
- Joined: 2002-09-20 10:03pm
- Location: My personal sanctuary from the outside world
I might as well post a pic of my current fortress:
The first pair of big rooms by the entrance are storage, mostly finished goods but the bottom one is now polished and serves as a statue garden besides just excavated stone. The section of rooms following that were my workshops, but most of them have been relocated past the river and only piles of materials remain. The polished rooms next to them are three 18-seat dining halls, and far below those are the sleeping quarters packed together into four wings. That just leaves the irrigation farming as the last rooms on that side of the river.
The modular grid of rooms past that are my new workshops, with half of them being built this season and filled with workshops & stockpiles just recently. I'm not too concerned with the distance between work versus food and lodgings in that section. The big underground forest area on that side of the river is also brand new, but I've got a safe and dense forest outside so the towercaps will mostly be for convenience and supplementation. The small polished rooms between the craft area and the chasm were the quarters and offices of the previous group's nobles, now empty. I added a mausoleum alongside them after a moody metalsmith killed a kid and a mason while waiting for the magma forge.
Speaking of magma forge, that's the only notable location after that point in the fortress. The excavation tunnels were dug in search of iron ore, which I finally found in the bottom right.
So there you have it. It's a little less than 50 Dwarves right now but with the previous supplies and construction done the second inhabitants of Bolt-taker are doing quite well with their management of work and supplies.
The first pair of big rooms by the entrance are storage, mostly finished goods but the bottom one is now polished and serves as a statue garden besides just excavated stone. The section of rooms following that were my workshops, but most of them have been relocated past the river and only piles of materials remain. The polished rooms next to them are three 18-seat dining halls, and far below those are the sleeping quarters packed together into four wings. That just leaves the irrigation farming as the last rooms on that side of the river.
The modular grid of rooms past that are my new workshops, with half of them being built this season and filled with workshops & stockpiles just recently. I'm not too concerned with the distance between work versus food and lodgings in that section. The big underground forest area on that side of the river is also brand new, but I've got a safe and dense forest outside so the towercaps will mostly be for convenience and supplementation. The small polished rooms between the craft area and the chasm were the quarters and offices of the previous group's nobles, now empty. I added a mausoleum alongside them after a moody metalsmith killed a kid and a mason while waiting for the magma forge.
Speaking of magma forge, that's the only notable location after that point in the fortress. The excavation tunnels were dug in search of iron ore, which I finally found in the bottom right.
So there you have it. It's a little less than 50 Dwarves right now but with the previous supplies and construction done the second inhabitants of Bolt-taker are doing quite well with their management of work and supplies.
By His Word...
- Starglider
- Miles Dyson
- Posts: 8709
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Here's a pic of the NORAD mountain complex. It's in a current growth stage, and everyone is on high alarm mode after the unwelcome discovery of a chasm next to what I was attempting to make my Dwarven Hold to store all the random crud my workshops were making. I slammed a bunch of floodgates into the wall to keep out any nasties that show up, and re-stationed the barracks there, so if anything does break through, they're probably standing directly behind an archery range.
As I recently had a rash of Nobles showing up (three at once!) I needed to quickly construct some fancy rooms for them inwards of the Great Hall, which is a legendary dining hall.
The depot is outside, as are two Craftsdwarf shops, but there's nothing inside the base until past the river, which is itself rather hard to breach due to the way the bridge is set up.
To the north is a massive, sprawling housing complex for my 70 strong Dwarves, and to the South is quite obviously a set of internal farms with a double floodgate system to keep out any nasties. To the east of the farms are workshops, with three shops per room. Generally these all follow a theme, but I've had some Dwarfs get into a strange mood recently and had to make a few things especially for them, and also to cope with the Manager's demands. As he had no room of his own at that point, it was the least I could do.
I've constructed a pair of bridges over the river in order to unlock some more territory, but ran into a waterfall, which unfortunately floods nearly the entire top corridor. We're going to install doors all along that thing to keep it from acting up like that, but it's going to be a messy process.
It's a fairly compact base, but it's more or less self sufficent. Right now my gravel pit is consuming the vast majority of my labor force, which is unfortunate, as I really do want people to keep planting food, but the rocks have annoyed me to the point of causing me to go berserk and create a world-swallowing pile of rocks outside just to satisfy my desire for cleanliness.
As I recently had a rash of Nobles showing up (three at once!) I needed to quickly construct some fancy rooms for them inwards of the Great Hall, which is a legendary dining hall.
The depot is outside, as are two Craftsdwarf shops, but there's nothing inside the base until past the river, which is itself rather hard to breach due to the way the bridge is set up.
To the north is a massive, sprawling housing complex for my 70 strong Dwarves, and to the South is quite obviously a set of internal farms with a double floodgate system to keep out any nasties. To the east of the farms are workshops, with three shops per room. Generally these all follow a theme, but I've had some Dwarfs get into a strange mood recently and had to make a few things especially for them, and also to cope with the Manager's demands. As he had no room of his own at that point, it was the least I could do.
I've constructed a pair of bridges over the river in order to unlock some more territory, but ran into a waterfall, which unfortunately floods nearly the entire top corridor. We're going to install doors all along that thing to keep it from acting up like that, but it's going to be a messy process.
It's a fairly compact base, but it's more or less self sufficent. Right now my gravel pit is consuming the vast majority of my labor force, which is unfortunate, as I really do want people to keep planting food, but the rocks have annoyed me to the point of causing me to go berserk and create a world-swallowing pile of rocks outside just to satisfy my desire for cleanliness.
- GuppyShark
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2830
- Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
- Location: South Australia
Starting to look like my base. I have barracks, the Sherrif's quarters, and the trade depot cited in the initial section, nile farms, food storage, and dining hall after the river, with workshops underneath so they don't stop working very long to eat. Magma forges/smelters beyond the chasm, with big storerooms for ore and coal.
I'm making gold thrones for my nobles, steel plate for my swarm of sword troops, bronze bins to store goods in. Metal working is awesome.
I'm planning to give up on Nile farming. I just lost a legendary craftsdwarf to a goddamned flood. They're like lemmings when that thing rises.
I have wells on either side of the bridge so they don't drink from the river, doors blocking off either side, masons nearby keeping the doors clear of stone, but nothing can prevent a dwarf casually strolling across at the worst possible time short of micro-managing the locks on those doors.
On the other hand, the bigger problem I have is a massive gorilla swarm that is blocking off my trade route. I've lost two caravans to them, and several migrants. I've now bitten the bullet and stationed troops permanently at the road, but keeping them there when they need food, drink and sleep is something I'll have to tackle tonight.
It would be awesome if I could build a guard tower.
I'm making gold thrones for my nobles, steel plate for my swarm of sword troops, bronze bins to store goods in. Metal working is awesome.
I'm planning to give up on Nile farming. I just lost a legendary craftsdwarf to a goddamned flood. They're like lemmings when that thing rises.
I have wells on either side of the bridge so they don't drink from the river, doors blocking off either side, masons nearby keeping the doors clear of stone, but nothing can prevent a dwarf casually strolling across at the worst possible time short of micro-managing the locks on those doors.
On the other hand, the bigger problem I have is a massive gorilla swarm that is blocking off my trade route. I've lost two caravans to them, and several migrants. I've now bitten the bullet and stationed troops permanently at the road, but keeping them there when they need food, drink and sleep is something I'll have to tackle tonight.
It would be awesome if I could build a guard tower.
Aww fuck, I basically just lost. All my farmers, including cook and brewer, have been smote by my Sherrif. Apparently the Manager decided not to let me export all those armors he had me make, but I'd already sold them by then, so he got offended and had everyone who moved the damn things (and there were a lot) beaten with hammers until death.
Seriously, what the fuck?
I might be able to survive this, but without a brewer, things are going to get bad fast.
Any comments for what I should do with my next fortress?
Seriously, what the fuck?
I might be able to survive this, but without a brewer, things are going to get bad fast.
Any comments for what I should do with my next fortress?
- GuppyShark
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 2830
- Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
- Location: South Australia