Need a joystick for casual gaming

[Alyeska]

Stop quoting my name directly in every single quoted response, it makes responding to you needlessly irritating. Its not good form.

Says who? By that rationale you don't need any peripherals at all; except people have always used them, because they're better. Keyboard and mouse is passable for most games and good for RTS/FPS, that's all. It's not a religion or a best fit.

The mouse and keyboard is default. So your looking at an additional peripherial that suits what you want. Preference.

Wow, let's play 'choose a list of games that use a given control scheme'! Let's play Geometry Wars or Meteos with the keyboard and mouse!

Way to miss the point. Most casual games that exist on the PC are not heavy on the control setup and function quite well without a controller.

That you declare people who buy peripherals 'not casual gamers' is both staggeringly arrogant and instantly defeats the OP; your input is thus 'don't buy anything because casual = cheap'. That said, the OP does appear to class complex games like Orbiter and Il-2 as 'casual', so...

A casual gamer is typically one that does not invest a lot of time or effort into gaming. They don't by many games, they play more simplistic games often, and they rarely buy all the bells and whistle attachments. So they typically don't have peripherals, or they wouldn't be a casual gamer anymore.

Alternate != better. People use controllers all the time; you declaring unilaterally that they are useless doesn't change that. There are people who didn't spend the last twenty years playing games with a keyboard and for whom controllers are much easier to use.

I didn't say better. And alternative does not mean worse either. My point is that people who play PC games in the first place are already accustomed to the mouse and keyboard as a method of play. So they select an option that fits what they need.

Except for all those people who use them, I guess. Who made you Baseless Declarator Of Usefulness?

Having a virtual keyboard for Halo 2 on the PC so that you can input your name using the 360 controller is useful. Except for the little fact that its useless because the computer already comes with a mouse and keyboard. Same principle. The controller is "jack of all trades, master of none" so to speak. And its usefulness is pointless on the PC as I already indicated.

Really? I thought the equation 'buy joystick to play one tiny genre or buy controller to play that genre and other games too' was entirely determined by usefulness. Unless and except those people who play extremely complex sims or have a hankering to wave their hand around when playing a game, there's no reason for a PC gamer to buy a joystick. They're single-genre. They're like driving wheels.

And what are the people going to use the controller for outside of flying? They are going to play FPS games? How about RTS games? Seriously. Your argument that Joysticks are awful is because the controller can also be used for other games that PC gamers historically favor the mouse and keyboard for. Are you even thinking your argument through before you post and make a fool of yourself?

A PC Gamer is going to default to the mouse and keyboard. It is an overwhelming preferred control method by the PC gaming crowd for games like FPS and RTS. So your usefulness argument about the controller just goes out the window, again. Its a preference only, and its not preferred by most gamers. Sure it can handle Freespace 2. Most people who play Freespace 2 don't prefer it. They will play with the mouse and keyboard, or they will play with the joystick. This has been made abundantly clear in this thread Stark. And you still refuse to see the reality right in front of you. The usefulness of the controller exists at the preference of the PC gamer. And the preference largely does not exist. So its not useful.

Quote me saying that ' controller to be the end all of perfection and that it offers superior choice and capabilities'. I said it was more flexible, and thus in general a better choice outside the very niche games that demand a complex joystick. The only one making absolute statements here is you.

Its more flexible, except no one wants what it can do. So its worthless.

PS, how is an irrelevant lie about only being able to press four buttons at once 'correctly pointing out the flaws in my argument'? Is that something that 'simply is' and doesn't need defending? Do I need to put up a youtube video? How is it even relevant to more than a tiny fraction of games almost nobody is going to play?

Two index fingers, two thumbs. I don't count button mashing as a means of hitting more buttons. And it requires you take your thumb off one stick. Controller is limited to only 4 fingers/thumbs. Joystick is not. Accusing someone of lying while not considering the actual biology facts makes you look like a fool.

[Stark]

Stop quoting my name directly in every single quoted response, it makes responding to you needlessly irritating. Its not good form.

LOL

The mouse and keyboard is default. So your looking at an additional peripherial that suits what you want. Preference.

Are you saying that anything beyond keyboard is simply 'preference' despite the simple logic of spread of utility or games used?

Way to miss the point. Most casual games that exist on the PC are not heavy on the control setup and function quite well without a controller.

Sorry, I thought you quoted a tiny list of games that were designed for keyboard and I quoted a tiny list of games that were designed for controller. Turns out the peripheral you use is based on the games you play, and joysticks (like driving wheels) have a very narrow utility.

A casual gamer is typically one that does not invest a lot of time or effort into gaming. They don't by many games, they play more simplistic games often, and they rarely buy all the bells and whistle attachments. So they typically don't have peripherals, or they wouldn't be a casual gamer anymore.

So if someone is playing Il-2 on lower settings (since they don't want to learn or spend effort according to you) a controller will work fine, while also working for non-flightsims. How is that simply 'preference'?

And if you're seriously claiming someone who owns peripherals is disqualified from being a 'casual gamer' you're insane. If you're posting in a thread about a guy who wants a joystick for casual play in a few named flight sims and saying casual gamers don't have peripherals, you probably need to think carefully about that.

I didn't say better. And alternative does not mean worse either. My point is that people who play PC games in the first place are already accustomed to the mouse and keyboard as a method of play. So they select an option that fits what they need.

Unless they're a casual gamer who hasn't spent twenty years getting 'accustomed' to using mouse and keyboard. My girlfriend has used a computer her entire life; she hates playing games with the keyboard because it's clunky and annoying. I don't mind, because I've spent most of my life doing just that.

It's almost like someone's skillset and willingness to learn affects how they play games!

Having a virtual keyboard for Halo 2 on the PC so that you can input your name using the 360 controller is useful. Except for the little fact that its useless because the computer already comes with a mouse and keyboard. Same principle. The controller is "jack of all trades, master of none" so to speak. And its usefulness is pointless on the PC as I already indicated.

What the fuck are you talking about? Because consoles use onscreen keyboards to input text, controllers are redundant on a PC? Are you serious? Keyboards are for inputting text. Controllers... aren't. This is irrelevant to their game usage (well, outside of communication, where voice chat is better anyway).

Simply restating that a controller is 'pointless' on a PC when people use them, manufacture them, buy them and recommend them is ridiculous. We get it; you're an oldschool PC gamer who frowns on 'simple' 'console' 'controllers'. That doesn't actually mean shit.

And what are the people going to use the controller for outside of flying? They are going to play FPS games? How about RTS games? Seriously. Your argument that Joysticks are awful is because the controller can also be used for other games that PC gamers historically favor the mouse and keyboard for. Are you even thinking your argument through before you post and make a fool of yourself?

Do you seriously think it affect the discussion to point out what I already said? Singling out a few genres that are best served by mouse and keyboard (that I already mentioned) hardly affects anything, especially for people who don't play those kind of games.

You do know some people don't play RTS and FPS games, right? Some people even play games that inherit console control schemes! Or games based on independent movement and firing! Or platform games!

A PC Gamer is going to default to the mouse and keyboard.

Default doesn't mean best. A controller is better for anything that needs a stick or wheel than a keyboard and is useful in both cases, unlike either of the individual peripherals. That fact doesn't go away. If you are suggesting I should play Freespace with the keyboard because that's what a PC gamer is going to default to you're a retard. I'm not sure why you hard on 'defaults'; some of us prefer to choose the options that work best over broad applications, and joysticks have inarguably a tiny application.

It is an overwhelming preferred control method by the PC gaming crowd for games like FPS and RTS.

Irrelevant, since you can't use a joystick for those either.

So your usefulness argument about the controller just goes out the window, again.

You mean repeating things I already said and are irrelevant defeats my argument somehow?

Its a preference only, and its not preferred by most gamers. Sure it can handle Freespace 2. Most people who play Freespace 2 don't prefer it. They will play with the mouse and keyboard, or they will play with the joystick. This has been made abundantly clear in this thread Stark. And you still refuse to see the reality right in front of you. The usefulness of the controller exists at the preference of the PC gamer. And the preference largely does not exist. So its not useful.

Prove any of these axioms. When you say 'the usefulness of the controller exists at the preference of the PC gamer' what are you talking about? Buying a controller is superior to buying either a wheel or a joystick, unless you intend on playing simhard flight sims, since it replaces both. I've never said they were the best, simply that they're more flexible. I'm not saying everyone should use them; you're saying nobody should.

Its more flexible, except no one wants what it can do. So its worthless.

So when I asked you to quote me making a statement you attributed to me, you ... ignored it? I guess you made it up.

Frankly, these constant statements that 'nobody' wants to use a controller on PC really need some support. It's an extraordinary claim (especially since plenty of people actually do want, use, and enjoy controllers on PC and have since the 90s) and I'd like to see some evidence beyond your personal animosity.

Two index fingers, two thumbs. I don't count button mashing as a means of hitting more buttons. And it requires you take your thumb off one stick. Controller is limited to only 4 fingers/thumbs. Joystick is not. Accusing someone of lying while not considering the actual biology facts makes you look like a fool.

OK, guys, here it is. Alyeska has either never used a controller or is retarded. Does anyone here think it's impossible to hit four shoulders and two buttons at once? Even if you exclude thumb-clicks (which are widely used) you have a whole thumb to hit face buttons. Aly, do you seriously not know controllers have four shoulder buttons?

I actually can't work out what this description could be referring to. What kind of controller has only two shoulders, but where you can use both thumbs on buttons while only moving your thumb from a single stick? Is this a reference to a Dreamcast controller or something? Dreamcast controllers don't have thumb-clicks (or radial menus) so that seems likely.

[JointStrikeFighter]

List of games types that controllers work AS WELL as mouse and keyboard for:

-Non-twitchy FPS [Flashpoint 2 worked better with controller lololol]

-ANY GAME FEATURING CARS [I may be a smarmy asshole but I'm pretty sure GTA had motherfucking cars AND is considered a casual game. I even played GTA SA on PC and whilst moving and shooting was nice driving was FUCKING GAY!!!]

-Obviously a controller cant work in an RPG because hitting people with a sword is HIGH SPEED TWITCH and requires 62 buttons. Even fucking WoW you only use movement, aim and a few buttons [3/4 attacks]

-ANY GAME WITH A CIRCLE MENU

[Stark]

Regardless, I think it's worth repeating what I've actually said (as opposed to what has apparently offended people).

I haven't said controllers are good for all games, or even most games on PC.
I haven't said that everyone should go buy one, or that it's an essential PC purchase.
I haven't said they replaced joysticks in all roles.

I have merely pointed out that a controller is more versatile (ie, usable in a greater number of games) than a joystick, and that if you are going to buy one peripheral and not play simhard flight games, a controller is a good idea. In discussion with Ando I've already expressed my belief that for his section of the market, a joystick is certainly a valuable purchase. This is similar to agreeing a car game enthusiast is well off buying a driving wheel.

[weemadando]

Fucking hell, this is a stupid argument.

Games I *currently* use my 360 pad for on PC:

Overlord (1&2)
Prince of Persia
Brian Lara International Cricket
Geometry Wars
Grid
Spelunky

In the past I've used it for many other games and other gamepads before that.

Why? Because sometimes a gamepad is the best input device there is, either because it has inputs that are better (analogue sticks in sports games and racing games) or because the games controls are so tightly designed for a gamepad and thus no matter how much rearranging you do, a keyboard and mouse setup will never be quite right (Overlord).

I have keyboard+mouse, gamepad and joystick and all of them get used.

[Tolya]

Has anyone tried to play an FPS with a stick and use the hat for turning? It's hilarious, but if you could learn how it would work... you'd just be waving the stick around like a retard to do complex things like 'enter door' and 'track target'.

I did. There was this old game called "Shadows of the Empire" which was ported to PC from I-dont-remember. FPS sequences were just part of the game (apart from flying and controlling a turret) and the levels were constructed horizontally so there was no need to constantly readjust your vertical aim. Plus it had a bit of an auto-aim, if you could track your enemy into a small cone in front of you your gun would hit automatically.

That was the game that convinced me that joysticks are no good for FPS's, since aiming was so heavily augmented you basically only had to worry about having your enemy in front of you. It was like low auto-aim on Rainbow Six games.

[aieeegrunt]

Way to miss the point. Most casual games that exist on the PC are not heavy on the control setup and function quite well without a controller.

That you declare people who buy peripherals 'not casual gamers' is both staggeringly arrogant and instantly defeats the OP; your input is thus 'don't buy anything because casual = cheap'. That said, the OP does appear to class complex games like Orbiter and Il-2 as 'casual', so...

A casual gamer is typically one that does not invest a lot of time or effort into gaming. They don't by many games, they play more simplistic games often, and they rarely buy all the bells and whistle attachments. So they typically don't have peripherals, or they wouldn't be a casual gamer anymore.

I consider myself a casual gamer and I both own a lot of games and invest a good amount of time playing them. For me I think the difference is in attitude; I don't really take it super serial when I play, I don't need to get every last achievement in a game I play nor does my life end if my kill/death ratio in Random Shooter of the Moment goes down by two tenths of a point. I own several titles for both PC and xbox because I enjoy the occasional bit of modding to fix developer stupidity (Fallout 3 and Left 4 Dead come to mind).

I use a controller for both xbox and PC because I find it far more comfortable and intuitive than a keyboard and mouse, and there is no way I'm going to bother with specialized devices like driving wheels and whatnot when the controller is by far good enough for the gaming I do.

[weemadando]

A casual gamer is typically one that does not invest a lot of time or effort into gaming. They don't by many games, they play more simplistic games often, and they rarely buy all the bells and whistle attachments. So they typically don't have peripherals, or they wouldn't be a casual gamer anymore.

You know, I'm probably a casual gamer, because I can only play games for 15-30 minutes at a stretch - even if they often are sim games. And I do quite like PopCap games and have even played facebook games, so I'm about as casual as they come obviously. Yet I seem to have peripherals out the wazoo. Moral of the story "casual" means fucking nothing and I wish people would stop using it.

And lets not forget, that the OP has the person willing to spend up to $50 to buy a joystick for the express purpose of playing some flight and space sims. So clearly they are willing to make that investment regardless of whether they only play games "casually" or not.