Moderator: Thanas
That's the exact problem here: people like you can't decide what they want. You'd like a game about building your own space trade empire that is also a space shooter and also a ship simulator and also...Purple wrote: Without the 600 point checklist, hell yes. The older X games had you manually open the cargo bay to pick items up. And some realism in terms of having to buy your own food, water and oxygen supplies would surely be fun to have.
Yeah, because a game that's sold to me on the basis of letting me run a giant interstellar corporation, yet is devoid of essential tools for doing that, is a good game because some functionality was hacked in by modders - or hell fuck off you can use excel and alt-tab!Purple wrote:Ergo scripts. If you fail to use the means that have been placed at your disposal it's your loss.
I did not drop the game after fifteen minutes, as I wrote earlier. I really, really, REALLY wanted to like it, but the lack of essential features made running my trade empire an excercise in tedium. I don't want to serve as my own research assistant and put tgether spreadhseets by hand - I do that at work all the time. It's not fun. Making correct decisions based on that data is fun and rewarding.Purple wrote:The bottom line here thou is that we are dealing with two quite different types of arguments here. You argue that the vanilla unmoded game sucks, ergo it's no fun and X3 should not be plaid in any way shape or form. I disagree with this by arguing that the fully moded and scripted up game is brilliant and must not be missed for anything in the world. You really don't know what you are missing if you just drop the game after 15 minutes with the unmoded raw.
A steep learning curve can indicate depth or the game being deliberately obtuse. As an example:Purple wrote:Its a function of personal preference. I like big complicated games with a steep learning curve that you can't just drop and pick up like minesweeper but actually have to mentally exert your self to play.
It was a figure of speech. Jesus.Purple wrote:Don't be foolish. My longest turn took only 7 minutes.
What, exactly, bothers you about that mod? Why would including it in the vanilla distribution ruin the game for you?Purple wrote:I think that since we both know Civ 4 we can come to a sort of understanding by naming Civ 4 examples.
You strike me as the kind of person that would love the BUG mod. I on the other hand am the kind of person that sees it as an abomination against all that is Civ. But since both options are presented to us, nether of us should have the right to claim the game sucks for not picking his preferred one.
The tactic works, doesn't it? Cheap tactics working is a sign of an unbalanced game.Purple wrote:Don't you think playing like that is a little cheap?
Or I can play something else which delivers on its promises without having me scour modder forums for something I like?Purple wrote:Exatcly, don't dismis the product if mods make it into something great. By doing so, you lose that something great.
...and then you have to implement those decisions by scrolling through numerous lists to perform simple tasks, like telling a freighter to go somewhere.Purple wrote:Scroll with your keyboard? I usually have a pen and paper by my side to make lists of things to do and combinations and a couple of spreadsheets open on the side to calculate the optimal combination of equipment to use for my M3 fighter escorts for my traders so that I can maximize long term profitability while minimizing loss to defensive capacity.
Not if it has you do essential things by hand, like composing a strategic map of your stuff. That's what paid monkeys research assistants do in real life ; CEOs shouldn't be arsed with composing spreadsheets in Space Excel.Purple wrote:I go to college or to the corner store, and I am doing X3 math in my head to calculate stuff that I will do later on in the game proper. If a game makes me pull out a pen and paper and do calculations on the side. That is what a fun game is all about.
I know exatcly what I want. MORE OF EVERYTHING!PeZook wrote:That's the exact problem here: people like you can't decide what they want. You'd like a game about building your own space trade empire that is also a space shooter and also a ship simulator and also...
Where did you get that from?You really think it would actually be fun to be penalized for not remebering another ten keypresses before launch?
People like you are plain childish. What you say is the equivalent of this:Yeah, because a game that's sold to me on the basis of letting me run a giant interstellar corporation, yet is devoid of essential tools for doing that, is a good game because some functionality was hacked in by modders - or hell fuck off you can use excel and alt-tab!
IIRC, the X3 CD came with mods on it. Either that or it was a list of mods with links to them. Either way, to quote the official X3 forums.You really don't see a problem with this approach? This might seems strange to you, but some people don't have the time or the inclination to scour modder forums and try out sixty different scripts to see which work (most X3 scripts introduce even MORE list-flipping and menus, not less).
Emphasis mine. They have acknowledged mods on their official web site as a must have download.The Bonus Package
The Bonus Package consists of a selection of scripts written by player community members. Egosoft has selected them as extensions that fit well into, and do not destroy the balance, of the game. The scripts have been signed and therefore they are enabled without activating the Script Editor. (Script Submission Details)
The bonus package is available from the Download page of Egosoft. A usage manual in PDF format is included in the package. No redistribution.
General questions and feedback about the Bonus Package can be asked in a discussion thread. Specific questions about the scripts must be asked in their own threads (links below).
How silly. Making the spreadsheets and calculating optimal weapon loads and trade routes is half the fun. Hell its more than half the fun. You not only get the fun of playing around in excel and exerting your brain to figure out the best formula and have fun with math but you also get the huge sense of achievement when your predictions turn out correct and it all flows as planed. Better yet, you can do it in your notebook while you have no access to the computer and thus one game can have you playing 24H a day where ever you are. Not even Tetris achieved that, and you could fit it on a gameboy.I did not drop the game after fifteen minutes, as I wrote earlier. I really, really, REALLY wanted to like it, but the lack of essential features made running my trade empire an excercise in tedium. I don't want to serve as my own research assistant and put tgether spreadhseets by hand - I do that at work all the time. It's not fun. Making correct decisions based on that data is fun and rewarding.
If you can't remember a system name from 2 clicks away you should stick to minesweeper. And besides, newer do you have to do this in X3. It always lets you click the system in question.Obfuscated game:
"To order your freighter to move to system X, you must open a menu, select the particular freighter from a list, choose option 6, then type in the system name (if you don't remember, quit the menu and check the map), select a pilot and armament and set engagement options."
No, it is a poetic over exaggeration also known as a figure of speech. It refers to a hyper simplistic game (minesweeper) as the ultimate simple game and the ultimate extreme of your view point. By doing this, it ilustrates how I see you right now.You suggesting I would prefer minesweeper to anything more complicated is a nice strawman.
See above. I don't think these translate well over the internet where all we have is text and no other auditory or visual ques. Just like sarcasm.It was a figure of speech. Jesus.
Too much information. I like some parts of it like Great person slider, but most of it is just too much. Like, why do you need notification that your city has grown? Can't you go check every city your self and see? And why do you need notification when an AI changes his mood toward you? Don't you check every one every turn anyway? It sounds nice in practice until your screen is spammed up with a million lines of things you should be checking for by hand. And than you realize it is just dumbing down the game for you.What, exactly, bothers you about that mod? Why would including it in the vanilla distribution ruin the game for you?
Given enough enthusiasm and perseverance any game can be broken until a cheap tactic is found. Nothing is perfect.The tactic works, doesn't it? Cheap tactics working is a sign of an unbalanced game.
See the salt point. If you won't use salt but just walk out the restaurant it's your loss.Or I can play something else which delivers on its promises without having me scour modder forums for something I like?
What are you talking about? The go to interface is simple as hell. Click on fighter, properties, commands, protect, select ship. Or Click on fighter, properties, commands, move to, select system. It is as short as you can reasonably make it. You can even group fighters into wings and give them orders together....and then you have to implement those decisions by scrolling through numerous lists to perform simple tasks, like telling a freighter to go somewhere.
Seems to me you just don't like excel. An in case you did not notice, in real life you have to go out look for and find an assistant to hire. Sounds a lot like going out to look for and find a mod to install. So what is your problem?Not if it has you do essential things by hand, like composing a strategic map of your stuff. That's what paid monkeys research assistants do in real life ; CEOs shouldn't be arsed with composing spreadsheets in Space Excel.
So you want a broken kludge that requires you to keep notes on a separate medium, a game that won't make money because casual gamers won't enjoy it and hardcore gamers will find it horribly flawed and unplayable to launch.Purple wrote:I know exatcly what I want. MORE OF EVERYTHING!PeZook wrote:That's the exact problem here: people like you can't decide what they want. You'd like a game about building your own space trade empire that is also a space shooter and also a ship simulator and also...
The more angles a game has the better. I usually leave a game once there is nothing new left for me to try out.
Where did you get that from?You really think it would actually be fun to be penalized for not remebering another ten keypresses before launch?
People like you are plain childish. What you say is the equivalent of this:Yeah, because a game that's sold to me on the basis of letting me run a giant interstellar corporation, yet is devoid of essential tools for doing that, is a good game because some functionality was hacked in by modders - or hell fuck off you can use excel and alt-tab!
IIRC, the X3 CD came with mods on it. Either that or it was a list of mods with links to them. Either way, to quote the official X3 forums.You really don't see a problem with this approach? This might seems strange to you, but some people don't have the time or the inclination to scour modder forums and try out sixty different scripts to see which work (most X3 scripts introduce even MORE list-flipping and menus, not less).
A smart company would package the best mods up, acknowledge the modders, and release it as free easy to install additional content.Emphasis mine. They have acknowledged mods on their official web site as a must have download.
The company can not create the perfect game becouse there is no such thing. What they can do is develop solutions AND let other people do the same. And if other people come up with something good than they simply link to that. It's just like minecraft adopted a lot of things (like for example pistons) from moders.
Why make your own copy of someone elses code and include it as a patch when you can just link to the original and give credit where it is due?
Doing this, X3 like many other games fosters a healthy community of people modding the game, playing it modded and having fun with it. If you don't want to be a part of that community than fine. But don't say the game is bad becouse you won't do the minimum step of going on their forum to bitch about it, find the mods and go play them.
How silly. Making the spreadsheets and calculating optimal weapon loads and trade routes is half the fun. Hell its more than half the fun. You not only get the fun of playing around in excel and exerting your brain to figure out the best formula and have fun with math but you also get the huge sense of achievement when your predictions turn out correct and it all flows as planed. Better yet, you can do it in your notebook while you have no access to the computer and thus one game can have you playing 24H a day where ever you are. Not even Tetris achieved that, and you could fit it on a gameboy.[/quote]I did not drop the game after fifteen minutes, as I wrote earlier. I really, really, REALLY wanted to like it, but the lack of essential features made running my trade empire an excercise in tedium. I don't want to serve as my own research assistant and put tgether spreadhseets by hand - I do that at work all the time. It's not fun. Making correct decisions based on that data is fun and rewarding.
If you can't remember a system name from 2 clicks away you should stick to minesweeper. And besides, newer do you have to do this in X3. It always lets you click the system in question.Obfuscated game:
"To order your freighter to move to system X, you must open a menu, select the particular freighter from a list, choose option 6, then type in the system name (if you don't remember, quit the menu and check the map), select a pilot and armament and set engagement options."
No, it is a poetic over exaggeration also known as a figure of speech. It refers to a hyper simplistic game (minesweeper) as the ultimate simple game and the ultimate extreme of your view point. By doing this, it ilustrates how I see you right now.[/quote]You suggesting I would prefer minesweeper to anything more complicated is a nice strawman.
See above. I don't think these translate well over the internet where all we have is text and no other auditory or visual ques. Just like sarcasm.[/quote]It was a figure of speech. Jesus.
Too much information. I like some parts of it like Great person slider, but most of it is just too much. Like, why do you need notification that your city has grown? Can't you go check every city your self and see? And why do you need notification when an AI changes his mood toward you? Don't you check every one every turn anyway? It sounds nice in practice until your screen is spammed up with a million lines of things you should be checking for by hand. And than you realize it is just dumbing down the game for you. [/quote]What, exactly, bothers you about that mod? Why would including it in the vanilla distribution ruin the game for you?
Given enough enthusiasm and perseverance any game can be broken until a cheap tactic is found. Nothing is perfect.The tactic works, doesn't it? Cheap tactics working is a sign of an unbalanced game.
See the salt point. If you won't use salt but just walk out the restaurant it's your loss.Or I can play something else which delivers on its promises without having me scour modder forums for something I like?
What are you talking about? The go to interface is simple as hell. Click on fighter, properties, commands, protect, select ship. Or Click on fighter, properties, commands, move to, select system. It is as short as you can reasonably make it. You can even group fighters into wings and give them orders together....and then you have to implement those decisions by scrolling through numerous lists to perform simple tasks, like telling a freighter to go somewhere.
Seems to me you just don't like excel. An in case you did not notice, in real life you have to go out look for and find an assistant to hire. Sounds a lot like going out to look for and find a mod to install. So what is your problem?[/quote]Not if it has you do essential things by hand, like composing a strategic map of your stuff. That's what paid monkeys research assistants do in real life ; CEOs shouldn't be arsed with composing spreadsheets in Space Excel.
So Battlecruiser is the perfect game?Purple wrote: I know exatcly what I want. MORE OF EVERYTHING!
The more angles a game has the better. I usually leave a game once there is nothing new left for me to try out.
Oh, I don't know, maybe because I mentioned giving yourself an enema before launch and you responded with HELL YEAH?Purple wrote: Where did you get that from?
Perhaps it would, but that's not what I wask asking about. You would also probably like to have to refill that meter by hand and having to manually check itPurple wrote:What would be fun is if you had a fuel/O2 counter that you needed to refill every X hours like you do with the space suit. That would make those huge voyages of exploration where you spend hours real time in SETA flight much more interesting. After all, would you not like to have your coffee break interrupted by a red flashing light that you are running low on oxygen? That sure would shake things up. The idea would be that it only works on player controlled ships and has a lolhuge duration, maybe even a free refill at certain stations. So you would newer see it unless you go a long time without docking. Just to give you those rare "oh shit" moments we all love.
It's not a question of codiments, it's a question of fundamental problems with the interface. Also, downloading and installing mods is not free of charge - it takes time to figure out, the effects are often only visible after hours of gameplay, and naturally they won't fix the interface.Purple wrote:People like you are plain childish. What you say is the equivalent of this:
You walk into a restaurant and order up some soup. Turns out thou, the soup ain't salty enough for you. Everything is fine, the spices are there, it looks beautiful but there just ain't enough salt. However salt is provided for you, free of charge on the table. Hell, it is brought to you by the weighter with the recommendation that you use it if you need it. What do you do? Do you take the salt and spice your soup up? No, you walk out the restaurant bitching about how their cook sucks.
A salesman offers me a product. The product is broken.Purple wrote:Well from my point of view that is just plain silly. People like you make no sense. Rather than going out to see how something you dislike can be made better you just drop it without even trying. When I don't like features about a game I open up a text editor and mod it my self first thing.
They can, however, introduce concepts that are decades old, like a strategic map. X3s problems do not flow from it being groundbreaking and radically new.Purple wrote:Emphasis mine. They have acknowledged mods on their official web site as a must have download.
The company can not create the perfect game becouse there is no such thing. What they can do is develop solutions AND let other people do the same. And if other people come up with something good than they simply link to that. It's just like minecraft adopted a lot of things (like for example pistons) from moders.
So...it's a "minimum step" now to log onto a game's forums, play with mods etc etc etc?Purple wrote:Doing this, X3 like many other games fosters a healthy community of people modding the game, playing it modded and having fun with it. If you don't want to be a part of that community than fine. But don't say the game is bad becouse you won't do the minimum step of going on their forum to bitch about it, find the mods and go play them.
It's only fun for OCD people who want to make gaming their second job. I already have a job where I spend hours putting together spreadsheets. I do not have a job where I decide what to do with millions of space dollaroids. If you want to put your spreadsheets together by hand, fine. Most people don't, and guess what, those people will never buy X3 upon hearing your peans for itPurple wrote:How silly. Making the spreadsheets and calculating optimal weapon loads and trade routes is half the fun. Hell its more than half the fun. You not only get the fun of playing around in excel and exerting your brain to figure out the best formula and have fun with math but you also get the huge sense of achievement when your predictions turn out correct and it all flows as planed. Better yet, you can do it in your notebook while you have no access to the computer and thus one game can have you playing 24H a day where ever you are. Not even Tetris achieved that, and you could fit it on a gameboy.
You are too hung up on the particulars of my example. It's merely an illustration of why "carrying out simple tasks along many steps" is not good design.Purple wrote:If you can't remember a system name from 2 clicks away you should stick to minesweeper. And besides, newer do you have to do this in X3. It always lets you click the system in question.
Except it misses the point: I don't want a simple game, I want a game where doing simple things is simple. There's a big difference right there.Purple wrote:No, it is a poetic over exaggeration also known as a figure of speech. It refers to a hyper simplistic game (minesweeper) as the ultimate simple game and the ultimate extreme of your view point. By doing this, it ilustrates how I see you right now.
Yeah, I can see why you hate automation right therePurple wrote:Too much information. I like some parts of it like Great person slider, but most of it is just too much. Like, why do you need notification that your city has grown? Can't you go check every city your self and see? And why do you need notification when an AI changes his mood toward you? Don't you check every one every turn anyway? It sounds nice in practice until your screen is spammed up with a million lines of things you should be checking for by hand. And than you realize it is just dumbing down the game for you.
Those tactics don't require perseverence and enthusiasm, they're blindingly obvious.Purple wrote:Given enough enthusiasm and perseverance any game can be broken until a cheap tactic is found. Nothing is perfect.
That's dead simple to you?Purple wrote:What are you talking about? The go to interface is simple as hell. Click on fighter, properties, commands, protect, select ship. Or Click on fighter, properties, commands, move to, select system. It is as short as you can reasonably make it. You can even group fighters into wings and give them orders together.
With context sensitive commands accessed via a strategic map interface of some sort.Purple wrote:If you can complain so much, I challenge you to tell me. How would you do it? If you can think of a better, shorter and more intuitive system I will accept it.
Yeah, and a CEO also needs to take a dump from time to time, buy his groceries and have unpleasant conversations with telemarketersPurple wrote:Seems to me you just don't like excel. An in case you did not notice, in real life you have to go out look for and find an assistant to hire. Sounds a lot like going out to look for and find a mod to install. So what is your problem?
I found it neat.PeZook wrote:So Battlecruiser is the perfect game?
I ignored that bit as poetic over exaggeration.Oh, I don't know, maybe because I mentioned giving yourself an enema before launch and you responded with HELL YEAH?
I did explain in detail what I would do to make it fun thou.Or more seriously, because I mentioned doing meaningless things before launching from a station, and you approved. Since you apparently like doing all that by hand...
Well yes, refilling it by hand for a price would be nice. And checking it should be done in the same place you check for your space suit O2, in the properties menu.Perhaps it would, but that's not what I wask asking about. You would also probably like to have to refill that meter by hand and having to manually check it
Hardly, the CD I bought came with a manual and the mods already on it. (I just checked)Purple wrote:It's not a question of codiments, it's a question of fundamental problems with the interface. Also, downloading and installing mods is not free of charge - it takes time to figure out, the effects are often only visible after hours of gameplay, and naturally they won't fix the interface.
And you think nothing more and just throw it away? Even after giving money for it? Typical consumerist wastage.A salesman offers me a product. The product is broken.
Well if all you need to fix it is as simple as exchanging a few batteries than yes, it's your fault. And modding X3 is as simple as that. Just browse the CD.The salesman says it's a really great product, if only you put some time into fixing it yourself. The salesman even offers me a list of things I'll need to use to fix it!
Now, is this really such a wonder that I am not exactly enthusiastic about the product if I do not have the time to fix it?
Its only problems as you call it can be fixed with 15 minutes and a web browser. If you won't do it, its your fault.They can, however, introduce concepts that are decades old, like a strategic map. X3s problems do not flow from it being groundbreaking and radically new.
How is it any different from having to say register to steam or some other service like this and jump through dozens of hoops there? Here at least you know you are doing something to improve your game.So...it's a "minimum step" now to log onto a game's forums, play with mods etc etc etc?
I think at this point we have sort of missed each other by a wide margin. As I said before, like 3 posts up and will repeat here. You are arguing that becouse the unmoded game is bad, one should stop there and go no further. I am arguing that if a game is modded to be good it is good, even if the unmoded game is bad. Becouse the bottom line is that if something is good once you are done with customizing it than it's good. If you can find enjoyment in it than it's good, regardless of how many trivially easy steps you have to make along the way.And yet it is somehow not a valid criticism that I, the customer, may not want to do that because I lack the time, and would like my empire-building game to come with empire-building tools?
Not every game is for everyone. And if you want to avoid spreadsheets there are scripts for that too. I just don't use them since I find them lame.It's only fun for OCD people who want to make gaming their second job. I already have a job where I spend hours putting together spreadsheets. I do not have a job where I decide what to do with millions of space dollaroids. If you want to put your spreadsheets together by hand, fine. Most people don't, and guess what, those people will never buy X3 upon hearing your peans for it
You would be surprised how fun it can be to take time off from boring junk while in class or public transit and think about a math problem. Like the other day, I thought about calculating what would be the largest cube I can make from reinforced concrete before it collapses under its own weight. The conclusion was that this would most likely newer work as the ground would give in beforehand and make it sink.In other words, the need to collate data yourself is not a plus of X3, it's a fault that you happen to enjoy working around because you have more time than sense.
Than how would you do it? Come on, tell me.You are too hung up on the particulars of my example. It's merely an illustration of why "carrying out simple tasks along many steps" is not good design.
But that sounds like one of those RTS games where you do everything with the mouse. X3 is definitively not a game for simple casual players just like the Civilization series. I don't think it was ever marketed as one either.Except it misses the point: I don't want a simple game, I want a game where doing simple things is simple. There's a big difference right there.
If someone is there to be your freaking companion cube and memorize everything for you it quickly gets annoying. Information should be freely available to you but always out of sight until you desire to look them up. For an example of what I mean look up the phone book on your cell phone. The information (numbers) are all available to you, but you have to open the phone book to look for them. They are not just printed on the main screen for you.Yeah, I can see why you hate automation right there
It's not "dumbing down" something when the things that were "dumbed down" did not require any intelligence in the first place, just memory. Professors write stuff down too, you own, and have assistants who remind them of things.
Obvious is in the mind of the observer.Those tactics don't require perseverence and enthusiasm, they're blindingly obvious.
It's no harder than copy-pasting a file on your PC.That's dead simple to you?
Holy shit
Click on fighter, properties, commands, move to, select system
5 steps in both things. Are you saying the windows copy-paste system is complicated?Right Click on file, click copy, open destination, right click on destination, paste
If that was any more vague it would be: By pushing some buttons of some sort.With context sensitive commands accessed via a strategic map interface of some sort.
I take it you don't like the station anouncements than?Yeah, and a CEO also needs to take a dump from time to time, buy his groceries and have unpleasant conversations with telemarketers
So you want a broken kludge that requires you to keep notes on a separate medium, a game that won't make money because casual gamers won't enjoy it and hardcore gamers will find it horribly flawed and unplayable to launch.Purple wrote: The more angles a game has the better. I usually leave a game once there is nothing new left for me to try out.
So you want to add a tedious feature to a game that is already mostly just spending a huge time doing nothing. There is a reason more and more games are adding features to allow you to travel through the bland bits to reach the exciting parts faster. Making it so your fast travel can kill you is retarded and pointless.Where did you get that from?You really think it would actually be fun to be penalized for not remebering another ten keypresses before launch?
What would be fun is if you had a fuel/O2 counter that you needed to refill every X hours like you do with the space suit. That would make those huge voyages of exploration where you spend hours real time in SETA flight much more interesting. After all, would you not like to have your coffee break interrupted by a red flashing light that you are running low on oxygen? That sure would shake things up. The idea would be that it only works on player controlled ships and has a lolhuge duration, maybe even a free refill at certain stations. So you would newer see it unless you go a long time without docking. Just to give you those rare "oh shit" moments we all love.
If the soup was known for being bad without salt the company should change the recipe. Not that it's even a good analogy unless you had to take extra time to wait for the waiter to come by and then ask him for salt. Then occasionally you'd find that you were given the wrong salt and now you need to wait for new salt. If the salt is bad enough you may even need to order new soup.People like you are plain childish. What you say is the equivalent of this:Yeah, because a game that's sold to me on the basis of letting me run a giant interstellar corporation, yet is devoid of essential tools for doing that, is a good game because some functionality was hacked in by modders - or hell fuck off you can use excel and alt-tab!
You walk into a restaurant and order up some soup. Turns out thou, the soup ain't salty enough for you. Everything is fine, the spices are there, it looks beautiful but there just ain't enough salt. However salt is provided for you, free of charge on the table. Hell, it is brought to you by the weighter with the recommendation that you use it if you need it. What do you do? Do you take the salt and spice your soup up? No, you walk out the restaurant bitching about how their cook sucks.
Well from my point of view that is just plain silly. People like you make no sense. Rather than going out to see how something you dislike can be made better you just drop it without even trying. When I don't like features about a game I open up a text editor and mod it my self first thing.
So the company sucked so badly they released a broken game and told you that to play it you then needed mods that they wouldn't even package for you?IIRC, the X3 CD came with mods on it. Either that or it was a list of mods with links to them. Either way, to quote the official X3 forums.You really don't see a problem with this approach? This might seems strange to you, but some people don't have the time or the inclination to scour modder forums and try out sixty different scripts to see which work (most X3 scripts introduce even MORE list-flipping and menus, not less).
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=276039
A smart company would package the best mods up, acknowledge the modders, and release it as free easy to install additional content.Emphasis mine. They have acknowledged mods on their official web site as a must have download.
The company can not create the perfect game becouse there is no such thing. What they can do is develop solutions AND let other people do the same. And if other people come up with something good than they simply link to that. It's just like minecraft adopted a lot of things (like for example pistons) from moders.
Why make your own copy of someone elses code and include it as a patch when you can just link to the original and give credit where it is due?
Doing this, X3 like many other games fosters a healthy community of people modding the game, playing it modded and having fun with it. If you don't want to be a part of that community than fine. But don't say the game is bad becouse you won't do the minimum step of going on their forum to bitch about it, find the mods and go play them.
Except that after one person does it you can look for the best configuration and then you don't need to bother with pointless work. Hell, the best thing doesn't even require math, it requires enough money for freighters and drones or a missile boat. Once you have those you can't lose. Whoops,turns out it's hard to feel like you did something special in a broken game.How silly. Making the spreadsheets and calculating optimal weapon loads and trade routes is half the fun. Hell its more than half the fun. You not only get the fun of playing around in excel and exerting your brain to figure out the best formula and have fun with math but you also get the huge sense of achievement when your predictions turn out correct and it all flows as planed. Better yet, you can do it in your notebook while you have no access to the computer and thus one game can have you playing 24H a day where ever you are. Not even Tetris achieved that, and you could fit it on a gameboy.I did not drop the game after fifteen minutes, as I wrote earlier. I really, really, REALLY wanted to like it, but the lack of essential features made running my trade empire an excercise in tedium. I don't want to serve as my own research assistant and put tgether spreadhseets by hand - I do that at work all the time. It's not fun. Making correct decisions based on that data is fun and rewarding.
We have GPS in real life, why would a space ship lack this basic as hell feature? Hell why is your character in game flying without even a basic map when I have one on my phone?If you can't remember a system name from 2 clicks away you should stick to minesweeper. And besides, newer do you have to do this in X3. It always lets you click the system in question.Obfuscated game:
"To order your freighter to move to system X, you must open a menu, select the particular freighter from a list, choose option 6, then type in the system name (if you don't remember, quit the menu and check the map), select a pilot and armament and set engagement options."
A much better example would be games that only have 1 life with no save games and things like that. Now that is abusive. But X3 is hardly Kaizo Mario.
So wanting a game with a good UI = enjoying simple games now?No, it is a poetic over exaggeration also known as a figure of speech. It refers to a hyper simplistic game (minesweeper) as the ultimate simple game and the ultimate extreme of your view point. By doing this, it ilustrates how I see you right now.You suggesting I would prefer minesweeper to anything more complicated is a nice strawman.
Oh, so you're too dumb to read between the lines.See above. I don't think these translate well over the internet where all we have is text and no other auditory or visual ques. Just like sarcasm.It was a figure of speech. Jesus.
If a city grew enough to reach a new threshold why shouldn't you know? Most cities IRL let the public know when they reach certain population milestones. The same with diplomacy, if it changes the AI should have sent you something to indicate this or a minister should remind you that things have changed. Do you think real leaders scroll through a list of cities looking for shit to do?Too much information. I like some parts of it like Great person slider, but most of it is just too much. Like, why do you need notification that your city has grown? Can't you go check every city your self and see? And why do you need notification when an AI changes his mood toward you? Don't you check every one every turn anyway? It sounds nice in practice until your screen is spammed up with a million lines of things you should be checking for by hand. And than you realize it is just dumbing down the game for you.What, exactly, bothers you about that mod? Why would including it in the vanilla distribution ruin the game for you?
Then you designed a shitty calculator and didn't run a basic debugging on it before release. They designed a game that is more flawed than that because it doesn't even give you an error, it is working as intended.Given enough enthusiasm and perseverance any game can be broken until a cheap tactic is found. Nothing is perfect.The tactic works, doesn't it? Cheap tactics working is a sign of an unbalanced game.
And I say this as a programmer from personal experience. You just can not predict everything. I have had people type in X into my calculator programs and break them becouse they want to do an equation.
All you can do once that happens is try and patch it out. And for that, refer to point 4, after the quote tag.
If you say that the soup/game is bland and the waiter shoves hundreds of spice bottles at you and you need to waste time tasting them all anybody would fine a new place to eat.See the salt point. If you won't use salt but just walk out the restaurant it's your loss.Or I can play something else which delivers on its promises without having me scour modder forums for something I like?
After all, a patch is just a mod made by the company that made the game. In modern modding where everything is open like CIV4 and X3 there really is not much difference other than the point of origin. As a programmer and a moder I can tell you that often times the only way to tell player made mods apart from company made patches is the way they download and the credits list.
That's 5 menus to do one action. Why not click on the fighters from either a ship list or a map, group them with a drag box, and have a radial menu appear for actions. There maybe three clicks to do anything now.What are you talking about? The go to interface is simple as hell. Click on fighter, properties, commands, protect, select ship. Or Click on fighter, properties, commands, move to, select system. It is as short as you can reasonably make it. You can even group fighters into wings and give them orders together....and then you have to implement those decisions by scrolling through numerous lists to perform simple tasks, like telling a freighter to go somewhere.
If you can complain so much, I challenge you to tell me. How would you do it? If you can think of a better, shorter and more intuitive system I will accept it.
Except that this game doesn't even give you excel. It's more like you being hired and then made to go buy your own software and then train yourself on it.Seems to me you just don't like excel. An in case you did not notice, in real life you have to go out look for and find an assistant to hire. Sounds a lot like going out to look for and find a mod to install. So what is your problem?Not if it has you do essential things by hand, like composing a strategic map of your stuff. That's what paid monkeys research assistants do in real life ; CEOs shouldn't be arsed with composing spreadsheets in Space Excel.
Well, actually you described a way to make travel even more annoying than it already is.Purple wrote:I did explain in detail what I would do to make it fun thou.
Why would you hide the meter in a menu?Purple wrote:Well yes, refilling it by hand for a price would be nice. And checking it should be done in the same place you check for your space suit O2, in the properties menu.
So did mine. Problem is, you're not told that unless you specifically check, by which time you might already be hours into the game, and they DO NOT fix the terrible list-based interface. Most mods just add even more options, and in many cases they're hidden under non-descriptive names like "Other functions".Purple wrote:Hardly, the CD I bought came with a manual and the mods already on it. (I just checked)
Yeah, heaven forbid I'd prefer to spend the extra time with my son or anything. I'm such a consumerist pig, having played the game for a hundred hours before deciding it's unbearable.Purple wrote:And you think nothing more and just throw it away? Even after giving money for it? Typical consumerist wastage.
Except it's not that simple, because the mods included on the disk do not fix any of the fundamental problems.Purple wrote:Well if all you need to fix it is as simple as exchanging a few batteries than yes, it's your fault. And modding X3 is as simple as that. Just browse the CD.
So the attached mods fix the list-based interface, lack of a strategic map, terrible balance, the long stretches of doing nothing at all, the lousy information? Really? Because all I see is more lists and more things to micromanage with a total of one script that allows you to plan a route.Purple wrote:Its only problems as you call it can be fixed with 15 minutes and a web browser. If you won't do it, its your fault.
Steam is also a piece of crap.Purple wrote:How is it any different from having to say register to steam or some other service like this and jump through dozens of hoops there? Here at least you know you are doing something to improve your game.
No, I am arguing it's a perfectly valid stance to criticize an incomplete and buggy game, even if mods may fix it, because not everybody has the time or inclination to dig around for proper mods.Purple wrote:I think at this point we have sort of missed each other by a wide margin. As I said before, like 3 posts up and will repeat here. You are arguing that becouse the unmoded game is bad, one should stop there and go no further.
You keep painting modding out X3's flaws to be "trivially easy". It's not. Some of it may be, but the game's flaws are deep and entrenched. The CD bonus package is patethic.Purple wrote:I am arguing that if a game is modded to be good it is good, even if the unmoded game is bad. Becouse the bottom line is that if something is good once you are done with customizing it than it's good. If you can find enjoyment in it than it's good, regardless of how many trivially easy steps you have to make along the way.
My entire problem is that the game doesn't come with basic tools for running a business and that I and many others don't have time to compose their own flavor and put together their own toolbox over several hours just to play the game as advertised on the box.Purple wrote:Not every game is for everyone. And if you want to avoid spreadsheets there are scripts for that too. I just don't use them since I find them lame.
And why is this relevant at all?Purple wrote:You would be surprised how fun it can be to take time off from boring junk while in class or public transit and think about a math problem. Like the other day, I thought about calculating what would be the largest cube I can make from reinforced concrete before it collapses under its own weight. The conclusion was that this would most likely newer work as the ground would give in beforehand and make it sink.
It was marketed as a game where you can run a space corporation, except you really can't because you spend 90% of your time micromanaging your assets.Purple wrote:But that sounds like one of those RTS games where you do everything with the mouse. X3 is definitively not a game for simple casual players just like the Civilization series. I don't think it was ever marketed as one either.
Who the hell said anything about wanting information to be shoved in his face?Purple wrote:If someone is there to be your freaking companion cube and memorize everything for you it quickly gets annoying. Information should be freely available to you but always out of sight until you desire to look them up. For an example of what I mean look up the phone book on your cell phone. The information (numbers) are all available to you, but you have to open the phone book to look for them. They are not just printed on the main screen for you.
Uh, yeah. Sure. I guess that's why everybody knows them, right?Purple wrote:Obvious is in the mind of the observer.
Windows has things like a file tree, dropbox selection, a clipboard, drag&drop, a search function...all done to ease the process when moving lots of files around. The problem isn't when you're trying to move ONE freighter, it's when you want to give orders to several ones in succession.Purple wrote:It's no harder than copy-pasting a file on your PC.Click on fighter, properties, commands, move to, select system5 steps in both things. Are you saying the windows copy-paste system is complicated?Right Click on file, click copy, open destination, right click on destination, paste
Jesus christ...Purple wrote:If that was any more vague it would be: By pushing some buttons of some sort.
Do station announcements require you to do extra work and penalize you for not doing it?Purple wrote:I take it you don't like the station anouncements than?
And yet X3 did make money, and so did Civ4 and many other games. Are you saying that they were all broken?Norade wrote:So you want a broken kludge that requires you to keep notes on a separate medium, a game that won't make money because casual gamers won't enjoy it and hardcore gamers will find it horribly flawed and unplayable to launch.
It already does. The basic idea behind my proposal was to cure the thing where you just put it on auto pilot and go fast travel for many systems without docking anywhere to save your game. Too many times did I die along the way doing this. If you spend so much time in fast travel that your O2 runs low, that should be a major warning for you that it's time to save your game.So you want to add a tedious feature to a game that is already mostly just spending a huge time doing nothing. There is a reason more and more games are adding features to allow you to travel through the bland bits to reach the exciting parts faster. Making it so your fast travel can kill you is retarded and pointless.
What I was trying to explain is the fallowing. You paid for your enjoyment in advance when buying the CD. You can't get your money back or get a replacement. All you can do is: a) Take the mods and enjoy it or b) Refuse the mods and deny your self enjoyment. If you chose a) over b) you are not inconveniencing the company, they already profited from you. The only person you are harming is your self. Ergo, it's silly. It's kind of like punching your self out of protest to a person that does not care.If the soup was known for being bad without salt the company should change the recipe. Not that it's even a good analogy unless you had to take extra time to wait for the waiter to come by and then ask him for salt. Then occasionally you'd find that you were given the wrong salt and now you need to wait for new salt. If the salt is bad enough you may even need to order new soup.
Define package. Do you mean put on the CD with the game (that's how I got them) or put on their website?So the company sucked so badly they released a broken game and told you that to play it you then needed mods that they wouldn't even package for you?
See above, right under patches labeled Bonus Content.A smart company would package the best mods up, acknowledge the modders, and release it as free easy to install additional content.
You keep saying that like it can actually be done, especially in the patched and modded game. And besides, if a tactics is no fun for you than don't use it. It's simple as that. If you find a tactic not fun and you still use it than you must be doing it out of spite to make some sort of silly point while spoiling things for him self. Sort of like a hunger strike or as mentioned above punching your self out of protest.Except that after one person does it you can look for the best configuration and then you don't need to bother with pointless work. Hell, the best thing doesn't even require math, it requires enough money for freighters and drones or a missile boat. Once you have those you can't lose. Whoops,turns out it's hard to feel like you did something special in a broken game.
What are you talking about? There is a system map accessible in the menu. And the only reason why the galactic map is not available to you is becouse it would detract from the exploring part of the game if you knew where everything is in advance.We have GPS in real life, why would a space ship lack this basic as hell feature? Hell why is your character in game flying without even a basic map when I have one on my phone?
Simple by definition != good.So wanting a game with a good UI = enjoying simple games now?
I can't read minds. I am not professor X.Oh, so you're too dumb to read between the lines.
First comes that, than automated unit movement, automated workers, automated cities and pretty soon all you are doing is hitting the end turn button watching the game being plaid for you.If a city grew enough to reach a new threshold why shouldn't you know? Most cities IRL let the public know when they reach certain population milestones. The same with diplomacy, if it changes the AI should have sent you something to indicate this or a minister should remind you that things have changed. Do you think real leaders scroll through a list of cities looking for shit to do?
As said above, if you use a tactic you know does not please you than you are only hurting your self. Only play so that it is pleasurable to you. That is the beauty of a sandbox. Just becouse something can be done does not mean it must be done or that it is the only way.Then you designed a shitty calculator and didn't run a basic debugging on it before release. They designed a game that is more flawed than that because it doesn't even give you an error, it is working as intended.
And yet the person who knows spices will quickly realize that he is in gourmet paradise. Especially if the only spice offered is labeled as bonus content right under patches.If you say that the soup/game is bland and the waiter shoves hundreds of spice bottles at you and you need to waste time tasting them all anybody would fine a new place to eat.
Becouse X3 is not an RTS game? RTS gameplay in X3 would make me go WTH. It would just be out of place.That's 5 menus to do one action. Why not click on the fighters from either a ship list or a map, group them with a drag box, and have a radial menu appear for actions. There maybe three clicks to do anything now.
Well if you dislike that, check the bonus content.Except that this game doesn't even give you excel. It's more like you being hired and then made to go buy your own software and then train yourself on it.
No, it penalizes the player for not clicking an obviously visible button to refill an obviously visible meter while landing at a station, something that he should obviously do to save. Hell, scratch the manual refill if you like and just keep it as a way of tracking how long it was between saves.PeZook wrote:Well, actually you described a way to make travel even more annoying than it already is.
"Oh hey I forgot to tank up on oxygen and I am in the middle of enemy territorry now I die"
So, what does it give the player, save for penalizing him for forgetting to press Ctrl-O while at a station?
Becouse that is where all the essential data should be. The HUD should not get overcultered by too much information. Everything secondary like exact shield power (rather than percentage) and hull and exact inventory list of all weapons and stuff like that should be out of sight but easily accessible for the odd time you need to bring it up.Why would you hide the meter in a menu?
So wait, you want the game to what force you to install the mods? Becouse if not, you won't even visit their website or open the CD at all? Well you know, if you are going to go head first like that than it's your fault. And besides, even if you miss it at first there is no harm done. It's not like there is even a single mod ever made that will somehow mess up your save games. You can always install them only when you get to the point in the game that you actually need them.So did mine. Problem is, you're not told that unless you specifically check, by which time you might already be hours into the game, and they DO NOT fix the terrible list-based interface. Most mods just add even more options, and in many cases they're hidden under non-descriptive names like "Other functions".
Its your fault for doing it wrong. A million hours of you failing will do no good even compared to one second done right.Yeah, heaven forbid I'd prefer to spend the extra time with my son or anything. I'm such a consumerist pig, having played the game for a hundred hours before deciding it's unbearable.
Mostly becouse you keep criticizing my approach that mods make it so good it should be plaid. So I figured you were one of those mod haters like the person above. See my logic further explained to him, it should give you more insight into what I mean to say.Why do you keep assuming I didn't try any mods or dropped the game after fifteen minutes?
Go to the website => run all the patches => go to the forum to cry about the game being broken => get linked to mods => profit.Except it's not that simple, because the mods included on the disk do not fix any of the fundamental problems.
The list based interface is not bad, it's good. It is what sets the game apart from silly one click RTS games. The balance again is not bad at all unless you manually abuse the AI issues to make it wrong. There is no lousy information, all the information is always available to you via simple clicks or in some case yes the mods. Like the mod that gives you a complete remote trading interface for your ships and stations with a complete trading log.So the attached mods fix the list-based interface, lack of a strategic map, terrible balance, the long stretches of doing nothing at all, the lousy information? Really? Because all I see is more lists and more things to micromanage with a total of one script that allows you to plan a route.
There we can agree. But my point was that X3 does not demand you to do any more work than most other games do.Steam is also a piece of crap.
The moment those mods were made it becomes your fault for not looking them up. After all, as I said before you paid for the game. The only thing on the line is your enjoyment. If you refuse to look for all the mods and customize the game to your suiting and instead opt to come and complain about it. The only person you will be hurting is your self. It's sort of like a hunger strike. Oh look, that guy is not eating. Who gives a shit.No, I am arguing it's a perfectly valid stance to criticize an incomplete and buggy game, even if mods may fix it, because not everybody has the time or inclination to dig around for proper mods.
So does every game anyway. And every patch for every game. And just about anything in life.Mods also have the excellent quality of needing to be EVALUATED, which usually means you have to play for a few hours to see if you like them or not.
See above, already addressed this bit multiple times.You keep painting modding out X3's flaws to be "trivially easy". It's not. Some of it may be, but the game's flaws are deep and entrenched. The CD bonus package is patethic.
So what? False advertising? Alright, that much I can agree to. They should have added a line saying: This game is not for the kind of person that does not like to employ him self further than clicking his mouse.My entire problem is that the game doesn't come with basic tools for running a business and that I and many others don't have time to compose their own flavor and put together their own toolbox over several hours just to play the game as advertised on the box.
I got carried away. It's just a project I am sort of still high on. Does anyone know the pressure resistance of wool?And why is this relevant at all?
And that is bad why? Micromanaging is fun. Automation ruins your life. It takes the game away from you. It turns a game you play into a vehicle on auto pilot where you are only along for the ride.It was marketed as a game where you can run a space corporation, except you really can't because you spend 90% of your time micromanaging your assets.
All things in X3 are done with the mouse. What's your problem?"Stuff is done with the mouse" is not a criticism of a game. If it's more efficient, what's the problem?
We were talking about the BUG mod. It literally shoves all the info down your throat and more.Who the hell said anything about wanting information to be shoved in his face?
It's just 1 extra click to transmit orders to all your craft in the system. And you really should not be issuing joined orders across systems for many reasons.Windows has things like a file tree, dropbox selection, a clipboard, drag&drop, a search function...all done to ease the process when moving lots of files around. The problem isn't when you're trying to move ONE freighter, it's when you want to give orders to several ones in succession.
Replace strategic map with the "my property" menu and you have X3.Open strategic map with a keystroke. Strategic map has a list of urgent announcements that take you directly to the matter requirig attention (like freighters with no orders, idle factories, ships under attack etc.). You can use that, or click on a system, select a freighter (or several with a dropbox), right click where you want it to go.
Placing notes like that is hard to program. Other than that, I can see how that would be useful but it's hardly essential.The map should be where you spend most of the time while doing management and housekeeping tasks. Use an outlook-style calendar to schedule repetitive tasks like supply runs or just reminders. Allow the saving of fighter loadouts. Allow you to place notes wherever you want.
But than you kill the exploration factor of the game.The map should be freely accessible and always available. Make it a really cool hologram of the galaxy if you want to show off.
.Then you can start dealing with the rest of the interface, the combat, the long stretches of nothing, the mission scripting (why the hell do you need to fly the SAME MISSION twelve times in Final Fury?) and put together something proper
I was making a joke. As said above, humor among other things does not translate well through text.They're there for flavor ; They're no different than ship aestethics in this manner.
At least in Civ4 you get a real map and don't need to write down everything.Purple wrote:And yet X3 did make money, and so did Civ4 and many other games. Are you saying that they were all broken?Norade wrote:So you want a broken kludge that requires you to keep notes on a separate medium, a game that won't make money because casual gamers won't enjoy it and hardcore gamers will find it horribly flawed and unplayable to launch.
Like, did you know that Civ4 hides from the player about a good half of the information on AI relations with him and the game mechanics? And yet it made money.
So you want a feature that can kill you, so you remember to save your game?It already does. The basic idea behind my proposal was to cure the thing where you just put it on auto pilot and go fast travel for many systems without docking anywhere to save your game. Too many times did I die along the way doing this. If you spend so much time in fast travel that your O2 runs low, that should be a major warning for you that it's time to save your game.So you want to add a tedious feature to a game that is already mostly just spending a huge time doing nothing. There is a reason more and more games are adding features to allow you to travel through the bland bits to reach the exciting parts faster. Making it so your fast travel can kill you is retarded and pointless.
You could return the game actually, then the company makes nothing.What I was trying to explain is the fallowing. You paid for your enjoyment in advance when buying the CD. You can't get your money back or get a replacement. All you can do is: a) Take the mods and enjoy it or b) Refuse the mods and deny your self enjoyment. If you chose a) over b) you are not inconveniencing the company, they already profited from you. The only person you are harming is your self. Ergo, it's silly. It's kind of like punching your self out of protest to a person that does not care.If the soup was known for being bad without salt the company should change the recipe. Not that it's even a good analogy unless you had to take extra time to wait for the waiter to come by and then ask him for salt. Then occasionally you'd find that you were given the wrong salt and now you need to wait for new salt. If the salt is bad enough you may even need to order new soup.
So they thought these thing were essential, but never added them to an official patch. Sense, this makes none.Define package. Do you mean put on the CD with the game (that's how I got them) or put on their website?So the company sucked so badly they released a broken game and told you that to play it you then needed mods that they wouldn't even package for you?
http://www.egosoft.com/download/x3tc/bonus_en.php
It's right under the link for patches, something you will need to do anyway when you buy the game. The only thing it does not do is install them with the game for you. But than again, you have to patch the game manually as well.
If the game is so badly balanced that it takes very little effort to make it unfun, and much effort to make it fun you're better of with returning it, or sucking up the fact you bought a bad game. Wasting time that could be spent having fun on a bad game, that makes no sense.You keep saying that like it can actually be done, especially in the patched and modded game. And besides, if a tactics is no fun for you than don't use it. It's simple as that. If you find a tactic not fun and you still use it than you must be doing it out of spite to make some sort of silly point while spoiling things for him self. Sort of like a hunger strike or as mentioned above punching your self out of protest.Except that after one person does it you can look for the best configuration and then you don't need to bother with pointless work. Hell, the best thing doesn't even require math, it requires enough money for freighters and drones or a missile boat. Once you have those you can't lose. Whoops,turns out it's hard to feel like you did something special in a broken game.
Does having GPS and a world map make exploring any less fun in real life? It's a sign that the game sucks if exploring a vast void is the defining 'fun' feature.What are you talking about? There is a system map accessible in the menu. And the only reason why the galactic map is not available to you is becouse it would detract from the exploring part of the game if you knew where everything is in advance.We have GPS in real life, why would a space ship lack this basic as hell feature? Hell why is your character in game flying without even a basic map when I have one on my phone?
Yes, but an intuitive UI does.Simple by definition != good.So wanting a game with a good UI = enjoying simple games now?
Equating getting sarcasm online to reading minds...I can't read minds. I am not professor X.Oh, so you're too dumb to read between the lines.
Hardly, a popup bring certain events to your attention just means you don't need to hunt for the info. You still make all the choices, you just don't need to manually tell peasant 246 to keep mining at spot X each turn.First comes that, than automated unit movement, automated workers, automated cities and pretty soon all you are doing is hitting the end turn button watching the game being plaid for you.If a city grew enough to reach a new threshold why shouldn't you know? Most cities IRL let the public know when they reach certain population milestones. The same with diplomacy, if it changes the AI should have sent you something to indicate this or a minister should remind you that things have changed. Do you think real leaders scroll through a list of cities looking for shit to do?
Sorry, but the combat system is broken. Ergo the game is poorly made.As said above, if you use a tactic you know does not please you than you are only hurting your self. Only play so that it is pleasurable to you. That is the beauty of a sandbox. Just becouse something can be done does not mean it must be done or that it is the only way.Then you designed a shitty calculator and didn't run a basic debugging on it before release. They designed a game that is more flawed than that because it doesn't even give you an error, it is working as intended.
Not really. It sounds like even after the soup is spiced you'll see the spots on the silverwear, realize that the wait between portions is too long, and wonder why the server seems a bit slow.And yet the person who knows spices will quickly realize that he is in gourmet paradise. Especially if the only spice offered is labeled as bonus content right under patches.If you say that the soup/game is bland and the waiter shoves hundreds of spice bottles at you and you need to waste time tasting them all anybody would fine a new place to eat.
So a proper UI = WTF reaction now?Becouse X3 is not an RTS game? RTS gameplay in X3 would make me go WTH. It would just be out of place.That's 5 menus to do one action. Why not click on the fighters from either a ship list or a map, group them with a drag box, and have a radial menu appear for actions. There maybe three clicks to do anything now.
Why? I don't own this game and never will. I'm just saying that you enjoy demonstrably shitty games.Well if you dislike that, check the bonus content.Except that this game doesn't even give you excel. It's more like you being hired and then made to go buy your own software and then train yourself on it.
If you can die because of it, it should be on the HUD.Becouse that is where all the essential data should be. The HUD should not get overcultered by too much information. Everything secondary like exact shield power (rather than percentage) and hull and exact inventory list of all weapons and stuff like that should be out of sight but easily accessible for the odd time you need to bring it up.Why would you hide the meter in a menu?
I would like a game that works without mods. Even games that actually require mods, seriously raiding with DBM sucks, usually come with less effective built in things that work nearly the same.So wait, you want the game to what force you to install the mods? Becouse if not, you won't even visit their website or open the CD at all? Well you know, if you are going to go head first like that than it's your fault. And besides, even if you miss it at first there is no harm done. It's not like there is even a single mod ever made that will somehow mess up your save games. You can always install them only when you get to the point in the game that you actually need them.So did mine. Problem is, you're not told that unless you specifically check, by which time you might already be hours into the game, and they DO NOT fix the terrible list-based interface. Most mods just add even more options, and in many cases they're hidden under non-descriptive names like "Other functions".
Just like a million hours of making a shitty game doesn't make the game less bad.Its your fault for doing it wrong. A million hours of you failing will do no good even compared to one second done right.Yeah, heaven forbid I'd prefer to spend the extra time with my son or anything. I'm such a consumerist pig, having played the game for a hundred hours before deciding it's unbearable.
That's why Blizzard has been moving away from heavy micro with each passing RTS they make right?The list based interface is not bad, it's good. It is what sets the game apart from silly one click RTS games. The balance again is not bad at all unless you manually abuse the AI issues to make it wrong. There is no lousy information, all the information is always available to you via simple clicks or in some case yes the mods. Like the mod that gives you a complete remote trading interface for your ships and stations with a complete trading log.So the attached mods fix the list-based interface, lack of a strategic map, terrible balance, the long stretches of doing nothing at all, the lousy information? Really? Because all I see is more lists and more things to micromanage with a total of one script that allows you to plan a route.
This said, X3 does demand a lot of micromanaging. But that's the point of the game. It's not just a shooter in space. It is a micromanaging intensive game made for players who like micro. Try playing Starcraft or any serious game competitively, you will see the same attitude there.
So people should be required to constantly watch for mods for a game instead of expecting the game to be fun even vanilla?The moment those mods were made it becomes your fault for not looking them up. After all, as I said before you paid for the game. The only thing on the line is your enjoyment. If you refuse to look for all the mods and customize the game to your suiting and instead opt to come and complain about it. The only person you will be hurting is your self. It's sort of like a hunger strike. Oh look, that guy is not eating. Who gives a shit.No, I am arguing it's a perfectly valid stance to criticize an incomplete and buggy game, even if mods may fix it, because not everybody has the time or inclination to dig around for proper mods.
Your approach is therefore irrational.
Wanting a good UI = lazy now?So what? False advertising? Alright, that much I can agree to. They should have added a line saying: This game is not for the kind of person that does not like to employ him self further than clicking his mouse.My entire problem is that the game doesn't come with basic tools for running a business and that I and many others don't have time to compose their own flavor and put together their own toolbox over several hours just to play the game as advertised on the box.
Bull fucking shit. Automation has made most things in life more enjoyable and the same can be said for the worst aspects of some games.And that is bad why? Micromanaging is fun. Automation ruins your life. It takes the game away from you. It turns a game you play into a vehicle on auto pilot where you are only along for the ride.It was marketed as a game where you can run a space corporation, except you really can't because you spend 90% of your time micromanaging your assets.
Stuff is done with fewer clicks due to a better AI is more aptly what he's saying.All things in X3 are done with the mouse. What's your problem?"Stuff is done with the mouse" is not a criticism of a game. If it's more efficient, what's the problem?
Except that the menu is worse than a map displaying the same information.Replace strategic map with the "my property" menu and you have X3.Open strategic map with a keystroke. Strategic map has a list of urgent announcements that take you directly to the matter requirig attention (like freighters with no orders, idle factories, ships under attack etc.). You can use that, or click on a system, select a freighter (or several with a dropbox), right click where you want it to go.
Bonus points in that the things under attack flash and have notifications and that you can set your craft to send you a message when ever they end up idle. Yes, you get a message saying that your ship has finished it's orders and it even has an instant access way to get to their orders menu.
Umm, placing notes anywhere on screen is easy. Have you seen the dirty simple stick note system that ships with windows?Placing notes like that is hard to program. Other than that, I can see how that would be useful but it's hardly essential.The map should be where you spend most of the time while doing management and housekeeping tasks. Use an outlook-style calendar to schedule repetitive tasks like supply runs or just reminders. Allow the saving of fighter loadouts. Allow you to place notes wherever you want.
You can still explore in games that give you a starting map. The GTA series has proven this.But than you kill the exploration factor of the game.The map should be freely accessible and always available. Make it a really cool hologram of the galaxy if you want to show off.
Breaking the game and realizing that the AI is never a challenging fight = fun?.Then you can start dealing with the rest of the interface, the combat, the long stretches of nothing, the mission scripting (why the hell do you need to fly the SAME MISSION twelve times in Final Fury?) and put together something proper
The long stretches are fun. In fact on the forum we often get discussions how it would be cool if the systems could be made larger like Aldrin. And the combat is extremely fun. It's the most fun combat I have ever had in a space game. Why do you dislike it?
You mean the map that is hidden for most of the game and relies on a mostly broken map trade mechanic that lets you map the world out with a single click for 50 gold? And are you seriously saying that you can play Civ4 on anything above settler without loads of notes placed either on the map or on the side?Norade wrote:At least in Civ4 you get a real map and don't need to write down everything.
Well yes, I find that something to remind me to save would be entertaining.So you want a feature that can kill you, so you remember to save your game?
They get nothing, you get nothing. Where exactly is the gain in it for you again? Like, did you get any enjoyment out of that transaction? As opposed to the enjoyment you would get with the mods.You could return the game actually, then the company makes nothing.
Why should they make it an official patch? What is it with "official" patches that makes them any diffrent from any other material you install on the side? Maybe I am distorted since I am a programmer but as far as I know a patch is just a mod made by the developers and placed in a different download category. They do the same thing.So they thought these thing were essential, but never added them to an official patch. Sense, this makes none.
Fun fact. It takes less time to download and install the mods than it does to walk over to the store and return the disk.If the game is so badly balanced that it takes very little effort to make it unfun, and much effort to make it fun you're better of with returning it, or sucking up the fact you bought a bad game. Wasting time that could be spent having fun on a bad game, that makes no sense.
Yes, yes it does. Knowing exactly where you are in relation to everything else that exists is by definition the opposite of exploring. To explore, you have to have something unexplored. To discover, something has to be unknown.Does having GPS and a world map make exploring any less fun in real life? It's a sign that the game sucks if exploring a vast void is the defining 'fun' feature.
The X3 interface is perfectly intuitive. Every command is right where you expect it to be.Yes, but an intuitive UI does.
It's a fact of life.Equating getting sarcasm online to reading minds...
But if you don't do that, than what's left for you to do. I find that in turn based games like Civ the main sign that the game is bad is that you get more than 1 turn in a row where the game does not demand your input.Hardly, a popup bring certain events to your attention just means you don't need to hunt for the info. You still make all the choices, you just don't need to manually tell peasant 246 to keep mining at spot X each turn.
Again, you are doing it to your self. All this is you throwing a tantrum that helps no one and deprives you of fun.Sorry, but the combat system is broken. Ergo the game is poorly made.
Well mister glass half empty I can't help it if you are out to search for bugs and won't be satisfied until you find something so perfect that it has no flaws at all. On that note, how is that attitude working for you in life?Not really. It sounds like even after the soup is spiced you'll see the spots on the silverwear, realize that the wait between portions is too long, and wonder why the server seems a bit slow.
Yes, in a space combat/empire management game a RTS like UI would be way out of place.So a proper UI = WTF reaction now?
So you are criticizing this without even trying it becouse someone else told you that it's bad? And your only evidence for it is the voice of some guy on the internet who goes against the massive established fan base?Why? I don't own this game and never will. I'm just saying that you enjoy demonstrably shitty games.
Than in X3, your HUD would cover the entire screen. This is not your average shooter. But I guess it's no point explaining it to you since you newer tried it.If you can die because of it, it should be on the HUD.
What is this DBM thing? I am no good with acronyms.I would like a game that works without mods. Even games that actually require mods, seriously raiding with DBM sucks, usually come with less effective built in things that work nearly the same.
Go away and don't come back untill you try the game.This is not a RTS. It does not target the same user base as an RTS. This is a micro intensive game becouse it's targets are players that like that sort of stuff. It's also not a shooter, a sex game or a bunch of other things. It's not intended to be those things, and it is not targeted at those audiences. As such, it would not benefit from an RTS interface, a cover system and rampant nudity becouse the people it's intended to target, people like me and those on their forums would not like it.That's why Blizzard has been moving away from heavy micro with each passing RTS they make right?
In the modern age with patches coming out almost every month, games exiting production bugged up and needing many patches, rampant DLC and free modding I would expect my answer to that to be: "WELL DUH!"So people should be required to constantly watch for mods for a game instead of expecting the game to be fun even vanilla?
Yes, in your case. Since the type of UI you want is the lazy man's UI. The one that does everything for you.Wanting a good UI = lazy now?
Oh my god, you are one of those silly automate workers crowd. People like you make all serious gamers cry. Well at least anyone who is not among the RTS/Shooter crowd.Bull fucking shit. Automation has made most things in life more enjoyable and the same can be said for the worst aspects of some games.
Except that the menu is worse than a map displaying the same information.
The problem is that they would take up a lot of space and cause clutter. Unless you program a way for the player to place notes in specific places like say the map or a ship or what ever. And at that point it becomes hard figuring out just what the place should be, how to remember hide and show them properly etc.Umm, placing notes anywhere on screen is easy. Have you seen the dirty simple stick note system that ships with windows?
Not really. I found the game incredibly boring becouse of this among other things.You can still explore in games that give you a starting map. The GTA series has proven this.
Breaking the game just so you can prove a point rather than modding it so that it can not be broken = stupid.Breaking the game and realizing that the AI is never a challenging fight = fun?
Most games with a map have the option in the game to play with it either fully or partially revealed from the start. Not to mention that a space sim =/= a game set, at least to start, in very primitive Earth.Purple wrote:You mean the map that is hidden for most of the game and relies on a mostly broken map trade mechanic that lets you map the world out with a single click for 50 gold? And are you seriously saying that you can play Civ4 on anything above settler without loads of notes placed either on the map or on the side?Norade wrote:At least in Civ4 you get a real map and don't need to write down everything.
So auto save then?Well yes, I find that something to remind me to save would be entertaining.So you want a feature that can kill you, so you remember to save your game?
They get nothing, you spend money on a new game instead...They get nothing, you get nothing. Where exactly is the gain in it for you again? Like, did you get any enjoyment out of that transaction? As opposed to the enjoyment you would get with the mods.You could return the game actually, then the company makes nothing.
Seriously, anything other than downloading the mods and having fun with them ends up a net loss for you. Protesting for the sake of protest with no gain to anyone is not going to change the industry. It'll just cause you frustration.
Your analogy is off.Why should they make it an official patch? What is it with "official" patches that makes them any diffrent from any other material you install on the side? Maybe I am distorted since I am a programmer but as far as I know a patch is just a mod made by the developers and placed in a different download category. They do the same thing.So they thought these thing were essential, but never added them to an official patch. Sense, this makes none.
Just like a jeep with a gun on its back is a light fighting vehicle if it's official issue but a technical if it's custom made. But they are both just a jeep with a gun on its back.
So, unlike with mods returning the game allows you to get that money back and spend it on anything else.Fun fact. It takes less time to download and install the mods than it does to walk over to the store and return the disk.If the game is so badly balanced that it takes very little effort to make it unfun, and much effort to make it fun you're better of with returning it, or sucking up the fact you bought a bad game. Wasting time that could be spent having fun on a bad game, that makes no sense.
There's more than enough places that are unknown to you to last a few lifetimes, GPS and seeing them online can't change that.Yes, yes it does. Knowing exactly where you are in relation to everything else that exists is by definition the opposite of exploring. To explore, you have to have something unexplored. To discover, something has to be unknown.Does having GPS and a world map make exploring any less fun in real life? It's a sign that the game sucks if exploring a vast void is the defining 'fun' feature.
...Under three menus and a sub taskbar.The X3 interface is perfectly intuitive. Every command is right where you expect it to be.Yes, but an intuitive UI does.
Only for the special kids...It's a fact of life.Equating getting sarcasm online to reading minds...
You would have input, you would simply not have to search for the things that need said input.But if you don't do that, than what's left for you to do. I find that in turn based games like Civ the main sign that the game is bad is that you get more than 1 turn in a row where the game does not demand your input.Hardly, a popup bring certain events to your attention just means you don't need to hunt for the info. You still make all the choices, you just don't need to manually tell peasant 246 to keep mining at spot X each turn.
I don't, that's why I avoid shitty games.Again, you are doing it to your self. All this is you throwing a tantrum that helps no one and deprives you of fun.Sorry, but the combat system is broken. Ergo the game is poorly made.
Grow up, man up and do what is fun. Don't go out to find the one thing you dislike and repeat it all the time to ruin things for your self.
Sorry, but I expect food to taste good without my input, the place to be clean, and the staff attentive. If it isn't I'll pay, leave no tip, and never come back again. Just like a game, but with a game you can get a refund.Well mister glass half empty I can't help it if you are out to search for bugs and won't be satisfied until you find something so perfect that it has no flaws at all. On that note, how is that attitude working for you in life?Not really. It sounds like even after the soup is spiced you'll see the spots on the silverwear, realize that the wait between portions is too long, and wonder why the server seems a bit slow.
How so?Yes, in a space combat/empire management game a RTS like UI would be way out of place.So a proper UI = WTF reaction now?
Somebody backing up their side with reasons I can understand is making me dislike the game. You're advocating for an OCD click fest.So you are criticizing this without even trying it becouse someone else told you that it's bad? And your only evidence for it is the voice of some guy on the internet who goes against the massive established fan base?hy? I don't own this game and never will. I'm just saying that you enjoy demonstrably shitty games.
If I can find you someone to tell you Twilight is a masterpiece will you argue that too?
You can fit a ton into a HUD. Look at the cockpit of a modern commercial airliner. Lots of info, small viewport. That should be default. External view should be the option.Than in X3, your HUD would cover the entire screen. This is not your average shooter. But I guess it's no point explaining it to you since you newer tried it.If you can die because of it, it should be on the HUD.
Deadly boss mods.What is this DBM thing? I am no good with acronyms.I would like a game that works without mods. Even games that actually require mods, seriously raiding with DBM sucks, usually come with less effective built in things that work nearly the same.
No, skip this game, get better game does that.And again, it's your attitude that is the problem. Your job in life is to maximize your enjoyment. NOT to pound out some divine justice or what ever you think you are doing here. Out of all your options, buy game + get mods gets you the most enjoyment. Ergo, you should take that route. Instead, what you are doing is pointlessly crying like a little baby, something that gets you no enjoyment at all. Well, actually you are not even doing that. You are instead just arguing about something you don't even know anything about.
Oh, so Blizzard making custom maps and specifically tailoring to what the fans want in SCII never happened? They never added extra options for people casting replays, never lowered the micro cap and made it a skill bonus not a requirement for high level play?This is not a RTS. It does not target the same user base as an RTS. This is a micro intensive game becouse it's targets are players that like that sort of stuff. It's also not a shooter, a sex game or a bunch of other things. It's not intended to be those things, and it is not targeted at those audiences. As such, it would not benefit from an RTS interface, a cover system and rampant nudity becouse the people it's intended to target, people like me and those on their forums would not like it.That's why Blizzard has been moving away from heavy micro with each passing RTS they make right?
yes, patches. Those things that auto download, that good companies are now letting you play the game while they install. Those ones?In the modern age with patches coming out almost every month, games exiting production bugged up and needing many patches, rampant DLC and free modding I would expect my answer to that to be: "WELL DUH!"So people should be required to constantly watch for mods for a game instead of expecting the game to be fun even vanilla?
A games challenge should never be at the UI level. It should be at the gameplay level.Yes, in your case. Since the type of UI you want is the lazy man's UI. The one that does everything for you.Wanting a good UI = lazy now?
Fuck off, I don't even play shooters very often. I play LoL, SCII, WoT, and NHL 11, and you can google those. LoL is widely hailed as a rising E-sport and managed to get near 2,000,000 unique views for the season one finals. SCII needs no introduction. WoT is common discussion material on this site. And sports games are iterative and incremental in design shifts.Oh my god, you are one of those silly automate workers crowd. People like you make all serious gamers cry. Well at least anyone who is not among the RTS/Shooter crowd.Bull fucking shit. Automation has made most things in life more enjoyable and the same can be said for the worst aspects of some games.
Automating something in your work place, the place you go to make money so that you can use it to have fun doing things you like is good. Why? Well becouse it gives you more time to do the things you like. Automating something in the things you like, the things you do for fun is bad. Why? Well becouse it's not you doing those things any more. Automated workers in CIV are like having an automated ice cream eater eat ice cream for you. Or like having your team in a soccer game controlled completely by the AI. The sign of a good game is that it only keeps score and lets you do the rest.
Not with a good zoomable map.Except that the menu is worse than a map displaying the same information.
Why? You have a neat list of ships ordered by star system. It's way less cluttered than having to look for your positions on a map containing neutral and hostile ships.
How would that be an issue, the screen would only get as cluttered as the person playing wanted it to get. Being able to place and hide notes would be easy and they could even be translucent until you mouse over them. Oh, did I just solve a problem the great program failed to overcome?The problem is that they would take up a lot of space and cause clutter. Unless you program a way for the player to place notes in specific places like say the map or a ship or what ever. And at that point it becomes hard figuring out just what the place should be, how to remember hide and show them properly etc.Umm, placing notes anywhere on screen is easy. Have you seen the dirty simple stick note system that ships with windows?
If you just want a generic list of notes, alt tab to notepad. It's not that hard. And I don't see what you find bad about that procedure other than anger fueled by nerd rage.
Then you're a minority.Not really. I found the game incredibly boring because of this among other things.You can still explore in games that give you a starting map. The GTA series has proven this.
Do the mods make missile and drone spam not rape?Breaking the game just so you can prove a point rather than modding it so that it can not be broken = stupid.Breaking the game and realizing that the AI is never a challenging fight = fun?
But you obviously know nothing about the game. Nothing at all. After all how could you since you don't own a copy. Go play it, mod it, play it again than come back here and argue once you know something not drilled into your little head by others.
I can, it's quite easy. Modded or no.Purple wrote:You mean the map that is hidden for most of the game and relies on a mostly broken map trade mechanic that lets you map the world out with a single click for 50 gold? And are you seriously saying that you can play Civ4 on anything above settler without loads of notes placed either on the map or on the side?