What's An Ouya?

[Sarevok]

I am in no way singling android out for shovelware, relative to iOS. It's the jump from 'these other markets with much larger install bases are full of shit software' to 'I don't see a problem with software quality on Ouya' that confuses me. This is doubly relevant because they outright encourage people to 'hack' their product, into a piracy and media box which won't make them any money!

Well don't confuse Android for Google Play store. Android is just the OS here. There is no reason to believe their app store will be like Google Play. From what they say so far ? Sounds like their screening process will be at least as stringent as Apple.

[Questor]

Where's this [quality]* software going to come from? Why should a developer spend time optimizing for a controller and a massive screen (totally different from a 4" screen with touch) if there's only going to be a couple hundred thousand potential customers? Why not spend the extra time/money to get on a bigger market if they want to be on consoles?

The big companies already realizing the importance of Android as a gaming platform and are coming in force.

Coming in force to Android for consoles? I think you know that if that were true, Ouya would not have needed Kickstarter.

Among indies ? It is THE platform after Windows.

In what market?

Not in phones, that's for sure. I don't know who the leader is, but it's sure not any variant of WP.

Among tablets? The market data says iOS is THE platform if you want to make money.

On PCs? Not available.

Or did you just mean in general?

And how are they going to pay for that? Do these reviewers just work for free?

Pretty much all digital distribution channels have a whole department dedicated to screening and reviewing new apps. Google Play is unique in that they tried to make the process more automated with the subsquent problems as result. But it's just Google Play. Amazons App store for example has more stringent requirements and will not allow you to publish until some requirements are met.

And how are they going to pay for that? Do these reviewers just work for free?

Do you think Amazon's App Store reviewers and Apple's App Store Reviewers work for free?

[Sarevok]

Coming in force to Android for consoles? I think you know that if that were true, Ouya would not have needed Kickstarter.

Ouya != Android. It is a device powered by Android of which there are more than I can care to count. Heck one of my friends now heads a company designing and building some Android tablet.

In what market?

Not in phones, that's for sure. I don't know who the leader is, but it's sure not any variant of WP.

Among tablets? The market data says iOS is THE platform if you want to make money.

On PCs? Not available.

Or did you just mean in general?

The recommended progression of the indie developer now goes like this. You prove you can make money on mobile, then you go to PC and then you are already succesful go for a console game. Something like Android is fantastic from technical standpoint to get started.

Do you think Amazon's App Store reviewers and Apple's App Store Reviewers work for free?

Are you saying the Ouya app store won't have paid employees ?

[Stark]

Well don't confuse Android for Google Play store. Android is just the OS here. There is no reason to believe their app store will be like Google Play. From what they say so far ? Sounds like their screening process will be at least as stringent as Apple.

If you screen down the available android games, you end up with not much. If you think a sizeable number of high budget, quality games will be made specifically for Ouya, I'd wonder why you feel this way - especially considering how much of their install base will simply be pirates and 'hackers'.

[Questor]

Coming in force to Android for consoles? I think you know that if that were true, Ouya would not have needed Kickstarter.

Ouya != Android. It is a device powered by Android of which there are more than I can care to count. Heck one of my friends now heads a company designing and building some Android tablet.

What does that have to do with the point? Or are you trying to have two unrelated conversations regarding Ouya and one regarding Android in general?

In what market?

Not in phones, that's for sure. I don't know who the leader is, but it's sure not any variant of WP.

Among tablets? The market data says iOS is THE platform if you want to make money.

On PCs? Not available.

Or did you just mean in general?

The recommended progression of the indie developer now goes like this. You prove you can make money on mobile, then you go to PC and then you are already succesful go for a console game. Something like Android is fantastic from technical standpoint to get started.

Can you please suggest someone who has followed this progression and been successful? Or is this something that Google is telling you to disguise the fact that people don't make much money developing for android compared to that other smartphone platform.

Do you think Amazon's App Store reviewers and Apple's App Store Reviewers work for free?

Are you saying the Ouya app store won't have paid employees ?

Well, lets see, as of right now, they have about $5,000,000.

They have 35,600 commitments for consoles. Assuming the break even on the console parts are around $60 (based on costs I'm seeing for phones, minus the screen), and assembly and shipping costs about $20, that means they need to spend $2.85 million on just the rewards. That doesn't include any other costs to set up manufacturing, lets say that's another $750,000. Total cost for rewards+Manufacturing setup is $3,600,000.

They mention they need engineers to validate the designs. That won't be cheap, but we'll assume they can get it done for $200,000. We're at $3.8mn now.

Now, they'll have to build an infrastructure for this distribution system (Google's not going to let them use play any more than they will Amazon or B&N). Assume they use EC2, but I'm not sure of the costs.

Now you have salary for the "team". Now we need reviewers.

So, yeah, I'm assuming they won't be paid, certainly not as much as Amazon's or Apple's.

[Questor]

Here's an analysis that's even more pessimistic than me. No idea on validity other than the fact that he agrees with my gut. That obviously makes this scientific fact.

http://blog.thirdyearmba.com/why-ouya-i ... to-be-true

[Sarevok]

Can you please suggest someone who has followed this progression and been successful? Or is this something that Google is telling you to disguise the fact that people don't make much money developing for android compared to that other smartphone platform.

Meh, you can make not so much on iOS while making millions on Android. If your game is unique and good I had say Android is too good to pass up. It is really hard to stand out on the apple platform since like 2010.

So, yeah, I'm assuming they won't be paid, certainly not as much as Amazon's or Apple's.

Unless you have insider information I am afraid I have to discount your opinion about this.

[Stark]

Why do you respond to every statement about android as if people were saying '... And Apple rules' after every one?

[Sarevok]

Well don't confuse Android for Google Play store. Android is just the OS here. There is no reason to believe their app store will be like Google Play. From what they say so far ? Sounds like their screening process will be at least as stringent as Apple.

If you screen down the available android games, you end up with not much. If you think a sizeable number of high budget, quality games will be made specifically for Ouya, I'd wonder why you feel this way - especially considering how much of their install base will simply be pirates and 'hackers'.

Yeah this is true. Right now their biggest problem is lack of games. If they can not somehow get a good selection of great games for it the ouya will be forgotten and die in obscurity.

[Sarevok]

Why do you respond to every statement about android as if people were saying '... And Apple rules' after every one?

I am not sure why you get this idea.

[Questor]

Can you please suggest someone who has followed this progression and been successful? Or is this something that Google is telling you to disguise the fact that people don't make much money developing for android compared to that other smartphone platform.

Meh, you can make not so much on iOS while making millions on Android. If your game is unique and good I had say Android is too good to pass up. It is really hard to stand out on the apple platform since like 2010.

Which indie developer has made millions on Android?

So, yeah, I'm assuming they won't be paid, certainly not as much as Amazon's or Apple's.

Unless you have insider information I am afraid I have to discount your opinion about this.

Which part? The multiplication?

[Questor]

Why do you respond to every statement about android as if people were saying '... And Apple rules' after every one?

Because he really doesn't understand why everyone doesn't just go, "An Android console? AWESOME!!!! My life is now complete and I can die happy."

The only reason to think Android is shit for a console IS OBVIOUSLY that I've been brainwashed by Apple.

[Sarevok]

Which indie developer has made millions on Android?

Not sure what constitutes "indie" but a quick stroll through the top grossing section on the Play Store would shows that many devs have infact made revenue greater than $ 1 m from sales alone. There is also the fact that larger share of Android revenue comes from ads and in app purchases which is harder to track. At the top end for high profile devs Android is pretty lucrative.

Anyway I am not seeing how discussion of Google Play store is relevant here. The point was that the ease of development is an important part of a new platforms chance at success.

Which part? The multiplication?

I am asking you to source the information that Ouya app store is infact not going to have any employees doing any screening.

[Sarevok]

Why do you respond to every statement about android as if people were saying '... And Apple rules' after every one?

Because he really doesn't understand why everyone doesn't just go, "An Android console? AWESOME!!!! My life is now complete and I can die happy."

The only reason to think Android is shit for a console IS OBVIOUSLY that I've been brainwashed by Apple.

I am not sure why you are going so off topic. The only point I raised was that ease of development is a good thing for any platform. Android is currently a good (and probably only) choice if you want to make a consumer entertainment device on a reasonable amount of time and on budget. It is easy to work with for the people making the hardware and makes it much easier for third party content developers as well.

[Questor]

I am asking you to source the information that Ouya app store is infact not going to have any employees doing any screening.

Doesn't work that way, you claimed that it would, you need to source that it will have paid reviewers.

I provided a reasoning on why I am skeptical they can afford reviewers (or even the consoles, I forgot to include their little spend a day in SF sillyness or the cost of controllers).

[Sarevok]

I am asking you to source the information that Ouya app store is infact not going to have any employees doing any screening.

Doesn't work that way, you claimed that it would, you need to source that it will have paid reviewers.

I provided a reasoning on why I am skeptical they can afford reviewers (or even the consoles, I forgot to include their little spend a day in SF sillyness or the cost of controllers).

I am not a fan of Ouya or the current obession with Kickstarter in general. And I do have significant reservations about their success. But that said I think you came at them from the wrong angle. It is facetious to think a company will be developing a console,making an app store for it where apps will be reviewed but not have enough money to pay those people.

[Stark]

I think you're proceeding from the unwarranted assumption these guys have any idea what they're doing. The whole point of Kickstarter is that idiots can pledge money to literally any hairbrained scheme, and some of the things these guys have said beggars the imagination.

[Questor]

I think there's a decent chance they know exactly what there doing.

If I were to compose a Kickstarter project to get a massive amount of money and promise nothing, It would look a whole lot like Ouya's. It's got all the magic words to stir certain communities into a frenzy. "Open" "Hackable" "Rootable" "Free-to-play"

[Sarevok]

I think there's a decent chance they know exactly what there doing.

If I were to compose a Kickstarter project to get a massive amount of money and promise nothing, It would look a whole lot like Ouya's. It's got all the magic words to stir certain communities into a frenzy. "Open" "Hackable" "Rootable" "Free-to-play"

How is an open and easy to mod platform bad ? You have not answered the question yet and seem to be repeating the same assertion as if it were a mantra.

[someone_else]

"Developer Friendly""Openness" Explain these buzz words to me in terms I can understand please.

It means it's easy for nerds to pirate games and create emulators of dubious legality.

And also for Stark:
What adds saying it out loud? I mean all other consoles are already relatively easily piratable even if it wasn't a designer choice (in theory).

This openness may be a way to allow people to come up with funky peripherals for the thing (a possibility other consoles don't have), or allow to load an OS with different jobs (that have to do with those peripherals), that might boost their sales even if those Ouya end up becoming something else entirely. The fact that the project is Open does not mean that assembling your own Ouya is feasible the same way it is making copies and rip-offs of Open Source software.


But yeah, the part that makes the most difference is the part about games. Android isn't a very good OS for console games but I can get over it. If they do "disguise" the Ouya as a tablet and allow it to take and stuff from the standard Android store, maybe with some games that don't work well every once in a while and/or may need some minor fixes to run on it as well, it could work.
If they do a Ouya-only market, they crash and burn.

Can't they get some loans for manufacturing the first hardware runs? If devs aren't payed for a while and there is no need for reviewers, with a loan they should be able to make it.

If I were to compose a Kickstarter project to get a massive amount of money and promise nothing, It would look a whole lot like Ouya's. It's got all the magic words to stir certain communities into a frenzy. "Open" "Hackable" "Rootable" "Free-to-play"

Would kickstarter give a shit if they just took the money and ran away? Would that be an issue legally? Or they have to justify how they spend that money and/or give all their supporters what they promised if they reached the goal in time?

[someone_else]

They seem to have some kind of sense after all.
The Creators of Ouya Used Kickstarter to Build Buzz, not Funding

pasting only the relevant part:

The key quote? Here it is from Ouya CEO Julie Urhman to Develop:

“We’re looking for additional funds of money but more importantly we wanted to take it to Kickstarter regardless. Because Kickstarter will give us the support we need from the gamers and developers to get additional content on the devices and bring additional partners to us.”

[Stark]

That's hilarious. Kickstarter as a measure of nerd stupidity wins again!

And if you think 'hacked' Xboxes are a marketing point for Microsoft they use to get exclusives and quality content on their service, you're strange. Or - probably - a Linux user. For instance, if I bought one it'd be to play mega drive games and torrent; they'd never make a dime off me. Even mentioning people like me to developers, publishers and content owners is useless and possibly counterproductive. And these guys were so pushing the nerd buttons they offered consoles 'rooted' 'out of the box'!

It's my understanding that once a Kickstarter goes over its limit and the people receive their funds, there is no recourse if they do nothing or don't deliver. It'll be pretty funny if they get actual investors to raise the shitloads of money they need and the nerd-chic bullshit 'features' just silently disappeared.

[General Zod]

What adds saying it out loud? I mean all other consoles are already relatively easily piratable even if it wasn't a designer choice (in theory).

This openness may be a way to allow people to come up with funky peripherals for the thing (a possibility other consoles don't have), or allow to load an OS with different jobs (that have to do with those peripherals), that might boost their sales even if those Ouya end up becoming something else entirely. The fact that the project is Open does not mean that assembling your own Ouya is feasible the same way it is making copies and rip-offs of Open Source software.

What's stopping idiots from taking a game like Pac-Man, swapping out the text and publishing it on the store as their own? No developer wants to hear how easy it is to put up plagiarized software on something that's supposed to be a mainstream game marketplace.

[someone_else]

What's stopping idiots from taking a game like Pac-Man, swapping out the text and publishing it on the store as their own?

The fact that it's a buttload of work to pubblish a game that won't sell? Pac-Man won't work in Android unless you rewrite it from ground up.

But assuming it is a game with a bit more appeal than that, you see problems I don't see.

That's the reviewer's job to block it if the store is legally acountable for the stuff, or by abusing of their powers and laughing it off (the way SD.net laughed off Sarevok even if it wasn't exactly its job to permit or not things) if the store isn't legally responsible for what is sold but the ripoff is so blatant.

If the violators distribute it with their own site then it's their own risk of getting busted and sued to oblivion by copyright holders, just as with anyone else infringing copyright. If the copyright holder doesn't give a shit (likely the case for Pac Man) they can get away with making some money off it, but if they start having any success (with something less shit than Pac Man, I hope) the copyright holder will notice and sue them asap.

Also, you were smart but I catched you. This is a way to shatter the feelings of the poor Sarevok. Aren't you sorry for what you just did?

And if you think 'hacked' Xboxes are a marketing point for Microsoft they use to get exclusives and quality content on their service, you're strange.

No, I meant that they didn't plan to waste tons of money in making ultra-safe consoles since that approach usually fails spectacularly unless they dump really significant amounts of money and brains into it, so they do some token anti-piracy just to keep appearances but without believing a lot in it.
So the proprietary consoles may be left relatively easy to pirate due to cost-benefit assessment.

Even mentioning people like me to developers, publishers and content owners is useless and possibly counterproductive.

They hope it is less counteproductive than the nerd support that they get by doing so.
In Android and iOS most games aren't really worth pirating imho (while it's still technically doable and lots do so) due to their far lower price and average success (apart from Angry Birds anyway). Playstation, Xbox and PC stuff has makes much more sense to pirate.

[General Zod]

What's stopping idiots from taking a game like Pac-Man, swapping out the text and publishing it on the store as their own?

The fact that it's a buttload of work to pubblish a game that won't sell? Pac-Man won't work in Android unless you rewrite it from ground up.

But assuming it is a game with a bit more appeal than that, you see problems I don't see.

That's the reviewer's job to block it if the store is legally acountable for the stuff, or by abusing of their powers and laughing it off (the way SD.net laughed off Sarevok even if it wasn't exactly its job to permit or not things) if the store isn't legally responsible for what is sold but the ripoff is so blatant.

If the violators distribute it with their own site then it's their own risk of getting busted and sued to oblivion by copyright holders, just as with anyone else infringing copyright. If the copyright holder doesn't give a shit (likely the case for Pac Man) they can get away with making some money off it, but if they start having any success (with something less shit than Pac Man, I hope) the copyright holder will notice and sue them asap.

The risk of getting busted clearly hasn't stopped companies like Zynga from copying games like Tiny Tower wholesale. Or Capcom from copying Splosion Man. The Apple store has its fair share of ripoffs, but ouya sounds like a plagiarist's paradise.