Star Wars: The Old Republic - Now Free to Play

[Civil War Man]

True, it is way less objectionable than most of the other restrictions. I just think it's (yet another, as if we needed more) an example of how utterly moronic they've been about this. Even the One Thing that supposedly sets them apart from WoW or any other MMO, all those class stories, they've gimped your ability to play through them all.

That's basically my thinking about it. It's not the worst restriction in and of itself (it's a tough competition between having to pay to use extra quickbars, the xp penalty, being unable to wear gear above a certain quality, and the limited on-the-field revives). But it hamstrings being able to play all the storylines, while Bioware's been shouting from the rooftops that f2p players would have unrestricted access to them.

Plus, it exacerbates some of the already draconian restrictions. Take the crafting skills, for instance. For each skill, there's the actual crafting skill, the gather regular ingredients skill, and the gather special ingredients skill. A character on a subscriber's account can have all three, so each character can gather and craft everything available in the skills they took. A character on a free account can only have one, and with a limit of 2 characters it means that a free account can't even craft on the same level as a single character in a subscription account. Assuming that the free player cannot spend money to unlock extra skills, and doesn't want to bother with multiple accounts, they get three choices. They can either craft the basic lowest quality gear, unless they have a friend to funnel them special ingredients. They can gather special ingredients and theoretically craft, but won't be able to do any actual crafting without a friend to send them the basic ingredients. Or they can gather everything they need to make an item, but need a friend to actually make it. All while having to split time between both characters in order to level the two skills they have at an even pace.

As others have been saying, it's hard to conceive of the f2p being this shitty unintentionally. Because so many of the restrictions combine to make the experience as shitty as possible. For example, the crafting example wouldn't have been as bad (though still a pain in the ass) if f2p were allowed more than 2 characters. Having to pay to increase inventory space wouldn't have been as bad if you didn't also have to pay to get access to the player bank.

At this point, I'm a little surprised that they didn't disable AoE looting for free players, though given the track record the only reason it wasn't was probably that there was no easy way to code it.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the crafting example may not even work, because I remember reading that one of the "perks" of preferred status is being able to send mail with an attachment.

[Lagmonster]

As others have been saying, it's hard to conceive of the f2p being this shitty unintentionally. Because so many of the restrictions combine to make the experience as shitty as possible. For example, the crafting example wouldn't have been as bad (though still a pain in the ass) if f2p were allowed more than 2 characters. Having to pay to increase inventory space wouldn't have been as bad if you didn't also have to pay to get access to the player bank.

I find it hard to believe that nobody thinks that anyone would think, "Okay, you can have your F2P, but we'll make it so painful that you wish you were subscribers." isn't worth giving a go.

My argument is fairly mercenary: If your business plan is to encourage the maximum number of subscriptions, a F2P format that handicaps the players who aren't subscribing makes sense. If your goal is to create a microtransaction market supported by subscriptions, then a format that provides a wide and comfortable foundation for the players makes sense so that they immerse themselves deeply enough to want better hats.

If nothing else, "neuter an otherwise functional part of your product unless your client pays this fee, for no other reason than to make them pay the fee" is a fairly well-worn business tactic.

[Grumman]

I find it hard to believe that nobody thinks that anyone would think, "Okay, you can have your F2P, but we'll make it so painful that you wish you were subscribers." isn't worth giving a go.

It can work, but it isn't something where more automatically means better. The Free to Play experience still needs to be good, to create a foundation where they're either willing to pay to make their playing experience more good or are willing to buy a subscription/make microtransactions as a form of in-game donation to a developer they like. Antagonistic behaviour hurts both, by making them not like your game enough to keep playing, and making them not like you.

[Vendetta]

I find it hard to believe that nobody thinks that anyone would think, "Okay, you can have your F2P, but we'll make it so painful that you wish you were subscribers." isn't worth giving a go.

In a market where all your competitors are not doing that?

When your prospective market has already demonstrated that your product is not uniquely attractive enough to be competitive on its own merits?

Yeah, it really isn't worth giving a go.

People really don't give enough of a shit about Bioware or Star Wars to prop up an MMO, so making your MMO product less fun than all its other free to play competitors leaves you with nothing.

It's not hard. Offer a worse product than literally everyone else in a highly competitive market and you're going to get fucked.

[Civil War Man]

I find it hard to believe that nobody thinks that anyone would think, "Okay, you can have your F2P, but we'll make it so painful that you wish you were subscribers." isn't worth giving a go.

My argument is fairly mercenary: If your business plan is to encourage the maximum number of subscriptions, a F2P format that handicaps the players who aren't subscribing makes sense. If your goal is to create a microtransaction market supported by subscriptions, then a format that provides a wide and comfortable foundation for the players makes sense so that they immerse themselves deeply enough to want better hats.

If nothing else, "neuter an otherwise functional part of your product unless your client pays this fee, for no other reason than to make them pay the fee" is a fairly well-worn business tactic.

It only makes sense if "stop playing" is not an option.

It's also a question of degree. The more restrictions you pile on, the more "stop playing" becomes the default. If a player is forced to grind wamp rats on Tatooine because xp restrictions prevented them from reaching a high enough level to complete their next class quest, do you think that will entice them to subscribe or cause them to quit in frustration?

How about when a free player tries to PvP and is promptly stomped into the dirt by subscribers because a) the credit cap makes it harder to buy better gear, b) the increased vendor prices makes some gear cost more than the credit cap, c) crafting better gear is basically impossible on a free account, and d) even if the free player manages to get better gear, they are often explicitly forbidden from wearing it unless they pay? In a game where a person's power is largely determined by what they have equipped, that's only going to drive away potential subscribers.

[TheFeniX]

It only makes sense if "stop playing" is not an option.

I think this is a key point being ignored in this thread. Even if you don't take the posts in the main SWTOR thread here on this forum seriously, TOR has been hemorrhaging subscribers since the launch fever wore off. There was a bit of a bump after 1.2 (I think was) released, but the amount of promised content that was cut far exceeded what was actually put into the game. The bump was more like a small uptick. The paid game isn't worth the money and we honestly think going F2P is going to bring in a new flux of players that will then pay money for what isn't worth $15 a month already?

How about when a free player tries to PvP and is promptly stomped into the dirt by subscribers because a) the credit cap makes it harder to buy better gear, b) the increased vendor prices makes some gear cost more than the credit cap, c) crafting better gear is basically impossible on a free account, and d) even if the free player manages to get better gear, they are often explicitly forbidden from wearing it unless they pay? In a game where a person's power is largely determined by what they have equipped, that's only going to drive away potential subscribers.

PvP is a weird deal. The sub-50 bracket relies on bolster to keep things rolling. Abilities available are much more imporant than gear. This is why Jedi Knights bloom late in PvP. But with my Trooper, I used to get bored and queue naked (only equipping a gun and off-hand) while running around yelling "I can't smash your face with the butt of my gun anymore because I'm out of ammo" and other stupid shit. I used to score kills constantly just spamming 4 abilities.

However, much like WoW: SWTOR gets fucking brutal at max level. Even before F2P, fresh entries into the 50 bracket were meat for the slaughter. You were only killing other fresh-50s or really stupid players who happened to be geared. And since everything is 8vs8 and gear progression was based on wins, you were screwing yourself and your team. Contrast to WoW, where you could lose 15 games in a night but still have enough to buy a PvP weapon. I think you'd have to lose like 30 games of TOR PvP to buy any of the shitty (which, by winning you could skip completely and get the better tier which is actually competitive) gear, depending on medals. You could also hide your undergeared players in huge 40vs40 battlegrounds.

So, you make it to 50 and start PvPing on your F2P account. You start getting whomped, so you sub. Ok, did things get any easier? No, you're now on the footing of every other fresh-50 and many of them already left SWTOR in droves because the PvP is a Dane Cook joke: a lot of setup with no punchline.

[Stark]

Using F2P micro transactions and restrictions to encourage 'the maximum number of subscribers' is fundamentally missing the point. All the games that failed as sub games but lived for years on F2P didn't trick or force people into re-subbing; they made money by drawing in a much larger number of people by removing the subscription barrier (more a cliff, really) then nickel and diming that huge population for hats/xp potions/quest packs. The F2P success story is that you DON'T NEED SUBSCRIBERS TO MAKE MONEY, and indeed that making people pay up front will not work if your game isn't super successful.

Everything you might do to drive people back towards subbing in an F2P model just makes less people want to play for free, which means you're fucking doing it wrong,

[TheFeniX]

That's where I figured they'd go. You buy the game, play without a subscription and get access to the full game with the exception of possible caps on number of loot rolls or how many commendations you can earn in X amount of time: slow you down a bit with that "man, I could get X quicker if I just coughed up a few bucks." During this time, you'd be deluged with "Buy Chewbacca's great-great-grandfather as a companion" or other unoriginal IP used for quick cash grabs. Maybe have a subscription model that gives you access to X early or for a reduced/free cost. I wouldn't have touched it at all since the game itself is garbage, but I could see how a model like that works and could make them money.

But what they've gone with is really just par for the course for what they've already been doing: taking from other devs and either completely missing the point or turning it into a shitty version of the original.

[Mr Bean]

Yes level 50 PVP is all about gear. A War Hero fighting a War Hero is a ten second long fight as each of you spam abilities back and forth and try to break LoS just as his big attack is going off, then hop back around to hit yours. Cool-downs, knockback and stuns are king and except for certain class combinations it's alpha vs alpha where if you have everything not on cooldown to fire off you can melt an equivalent geared opponent in under six seconds.

Meanwhile a War Hero geared player VS a Recruit or older Centurion or Champion geared player is not a ten second murder fest it's a four second one sided curb stomp. In testing a War Hero geared Jedi Sent with a pvp build can take and floor three Jedi Sents in standard non-pvp gear. In Recruit gear he can take and beat two if he's a good player.

Recruit gear is the standard gear you can buy at 50 that's blue, cost about 200k for a full set and is level 58 in pvp ranking but 51 in PVE.

Quick note on rankings. PVP has it's very own special stat called Expertise. All PVP gear revolves around Expertise as the more you have the less damage you take and the more damage you do into the 30/30. See two 50s fighting each other will do (roughly) 30% less damage to each other. Expertise reduces this to zero. Recruit gear has a massive helping of expertise so you do closer to full damage... but your other stats like critical chance, power to do more damage overall and general class stats are less.

So a War Hero does only 2% less damage than normal and his individual armoring pieces are better stat wise. A Recruit only does 5% less damage than normal but he loses so much.

Comparison

Champion War Hero Combat Tech's Gauntlets
591 Armor
+91 Aim
+123 Endurance
+110 Expertise Rating
+65 Power
+55 Accuracy Rating

Recruit Combat Medic's MK-2 Gauntlets
508 Armor
+63 Aim
+72 Endurance
+73 Expertise Rating
+45 Power
+45 Alacrity Rating

Adding together a full set you end up with hundreds of fewer points of endurance and primary stat. Endurance is hitpoints and primary stat sets your critical chance, your over-all damage and a host of of things.

Meaning a War Hero has over a fresh fifty a 28% damage edge, he also has probably 200-500 more points stat wise which means he's hitting twice as hard and landing bigger and more often critical hits not to mention the fact that high end War hero gear has set bonuses which can massively benefit you in the pvp battlefield.

[Stark]

Its not even a secret; plenty of crap and never-working MMOs (like Conan) and tired and not-unique MMOs (like LOTRO) did fine once they moved away from sub and into microtransaction. LOTRO was even fairly draconian I believe, in that you could go anywhere in the world but couldn't do any quests in the mid/late game areas until you spent $1 to buy the quest packs. This meant that F2P guys could play for weeks before 'needing' to buy anything to continue, by which time they're involved, they're playing, and they'll think 'fuck it' and pay the $1. If you did that in the noob zones, it obviously wouldn't work so well.

F2P is a whole different way of funding your game, and one that can demonstrably work enough to keep pushing out content. Its probably not best used as a trick or a crippled demo to get people to go back to the subscription model THAT ALREADY FAILED FOR YOUR GAME. F2P shows us that its often better to have 500,000 people who play a bit sometimes and pay some money sometimes than having 100,000 who pay regularly every month and a huge subscription barrier keeping new people out, especially in a market where people will be playing multiple MMOs.

[TheFeniX]

Meaning a War Hero has over a fresh fifty a 28% damage edge, he also has probably 200-500 more points stat wise which means he's hitting twice as hard and landing bigger and more often critical hits not to mention the fact that high end War hero gear has set bonuses which can massively benefit you in the pvp battlefield.

Yea, it's pretty fucking ridiculous. I did the math months back and Centurion gear was like a 1-3% stat boost over what you could get from questing. It actually lost stats over Tionese to get you the expertise. Meanwhile, if you got lucky and scored Champion gear on the lotto bags, you were getting anywhere from a 30%-50% stat boost depending on the stat and the slot. WH was like 5-7% over Champion.

I assume Recruit replaced Centurion since I left because PvP whores on the focums kept yelling: "Buy Recruit gear and you can PvP." This was so fucking untrue. Centurion couldn't compete in any form in PvP. You were much better off just trying to put together a PvE set of.... whatever the mid-tier gear was in TOR. And since the DR on expertise came up even before you mac out you Champ gear, I always ended up running with mostly Rakata gear and rounding out my set with a few Champion pieces with Rakata Tier mods. My Guardian was hell on wheels in PvP, but I got lucky and hit 5 piece of different champ gear the week I started PvPing. This also meant raiding was pretty much a requirement to PvP at the high-level because you actually end up needing to dump some expertise after about 800 points when the DR gets horrible.

But all that's pretty moot because PvP is borked from the start: WH geared players had no where to go in TOR. You got the same rewards for stomping undergeared pubs than if you fought other WHs. In fact, you got more because you'll do more damage againt lower geared player, hence more medals. Ranked WZs were supposed to fix this...... hahahahahahahahahaha! Yea fucking right.

[Mr Bean]

But all that's pretty moot because PvP is borked from the start: WH geared players had no where to go in TOR. You got the same rewards for stomping undergeared pubs than if you fought other WHs. In fact, you got more because you'll do more damage againt lower geared player, hence more medals. Ranked WZs were supposed to fix this...... hahahahahahahahahaha! Yea fucking right.

It's worse since War Hero geared players can play in Ranked Warzones which provide Champion War Hero Gear which you can then wear to stomp low geared players even more since Champion War Hero is Black Hole Tier in stats.

Quick explanation of current tiers of gear

Tionese (51) Columi (56) Rakata (56) Blackhole/Campaign (61) Dread Guard (63)

PVE it's
Centurion- Champion- Battlemaster- War Hero- Campaign War Hero
However they nerfed PVP gear so it could not be used for PVE meaning Battlemaster is almost Columi, War Hero is almost Rakata and Campaign is Rakata.


Some Rakata can crafted. Blackhole can be purchased for commendations earned via repeatable dailies but otherwise it's Raiding or nothing to get all the end game gear. So either you grind your way from Columi to Rakata to Campaign to Dread Guard fighting PVE or you grind your way against your fellow players for a minim of at least a month before your geared enough to start fighting for real.

[RogueIce]

So I hate Jedi Knight. I really do. The melee just makes me mad.

It's weird though. I've done melee in other MMOs and I've never seemed to have this much annoyance at it. I seem to be "Not Facing Enemy" or "Out of Range" more often than not. I didn't really have this issue when I dabbled in WoW and I can wack away just fine in DDO. But for some reason SWTOR's melee just doesn't like to work for me.

At least as a Jedi. Sith Inquisitor I'm okay with, probably because I started off with some Force Lightning which I can range and then start swinging when they rush me. But I had nothing like that for a starting Jedi Knight, and though getting Force Leap did help out somewhat I still have more problems with JK melee than Sith. I really don't get it.

(I could bitch about F2P restrictions more but I thought I'd change it up and bitch about game mechanics instead)

[Lagmonster]

Using F2P micro transactions and restrictions to encourage 'the maximum number of subscribers' is fundamentally missing the point. All the games that failed as sub games but lived for years on F2P didn't trick or force people into re-subbing; they made money by drawing in a much larger number of people by removing the subscription barrier (more a cliff, really) then nickel and diming that huge population for hats/xp potions/quest packs. The F2P success story is that you DON'T NEED SUBSCRIBERS TO MAKE MONEY, and indeed that making people pay up front will not work if your game isn't super successful.

I agree with you about the F2P-focused business model. I think that Planetside 2 (which I'm playing now) and Champions Online (which I played a year ago) both were masterfully designed around F2P. And I'm sure that if they had considered F2P at the beginning, they would have done it differently, but the lure in SWTOR is experiencing the stories, and since they can't go back and undo the primary focus of their appeal, they need to find a way to sell it. They haven't shown that they see SWTOR F2P as anything other than a sub lure, especially given they never gave any real shits about retaining the hardcore endgame-playing crowd in the first place and only wanted a piece of that sweet casual subscription market.

If I were to guess, I'd say that Bioware cares a lot more about the wallets of the people who spend more time in early-to-mid game content and play less than a few hours a week, who will never seriously play PvP or engage in giant multi-hour raids, but who will maintain a six-to-twelve-month subscription as long as the experience of meandering through the various class stories with their friends isn't frustrating. In fact, I'd say that same market is also the ones who have given Blizzard its legs, or at least the bulk of its money. Bioware reached for that pot and missed, but I would understand if they said that was still their goal.

[TheFeniX]

It's weird though. I've done melee in other MMOs and I've never seemed to have this much annoyance at it. I seem to be "Not Facing Enemy" or "Out of Range" more often than not. I didn't really have this issue when I dabbled in WoW and I can wack away just fine in DDO. But for some reason SWTOR's melee just doesn't like to work for me.

Melee at release was a lot more annoying. You could be kited by casters all day long because you almost had to be clipping into another player to attack them. I always joked that two ranged PvE mobs could kill me all day if they were smart enough to keep moving away, yet stay within the minimum range of force leap. IIRC, they "fixed" this issue by just giving melee a 4m range. That said even when I quit, I could not reliably hit a moving target with force sweep, even if I was clipping into their character model. You pretty much had to spec into the root on force leap to make sweep viable.

If I were to guess, I'd say that Bioware cares a lot more about the wallets of the people who spend more time in early-to-mid game content and play less than a few hours a week, who will never seriously play PvP or engage in giant multi-hour raids, but who will maintain a six-to-twelve-month subscription as long as the experience of meandering through the various class stories with their friends isn't frustrating. In fact, I'd say that same market is also the ones who have given Blizzard its legs, or at least the bulk of its money. Bioware reached for that pot and missed, but I would understand if they said that was still their goal.

I think WoW did so well mainly because it was at the right place and the right time, but they also immediately (if memory serves) started offering more and more timesinks for the people you're talking about. And they managed to make these timesinks be relatively enjoyable while doing them.

F2P doesn't change the biggest issue with SWTOR: there's nothing worth doing at endgame. Outside a few pieces, crafting didn't offer any rewards. Worse, there was no immediately feedback from creating something, because most the endgame stuff took 45 minutes to craft. You got railroaded into either PvP or PvE Dungeons/Raids. The dailies were a joke as there was nothing worth buying with the tokens and they were also an excruciating grind. The World Bosses could be fun, but there weren't enough of them near max level (I think we downed them all).

And the Fleet is too ugly and laggy to stand around in while you wait for raids to form.

[Lagmonster]

I think WoW did so well mainly because it was at the right place and the right time, but they also immediately (if memory serves) started offering more and more timesinks for the people you're talking about. And they managed to make these timesinks be relatively enjoyable while doing them.

I don't know if it's the game itself so much as their ability to appeal most strongly to the semi-casual market, somewhere above the casual Farmville crowd but below the hardcore guys who race through early and midgame content to get to the max levels and high-end competitive PvP. Those latter types have traditionally been considered the an important demographic in gaming - and god knows they consider themselves the most important demographic in gaming - but I think that WoW was the end of that age. I think that the hardcore demographic is more "reliable money", but I bet they burn out fast and have the highest consumer demands - whether from dissatisfaction when they race through all of your content to hit max, or because they are always looking to jump to the next AAA title.

Meanwhile, it may be that Blizzard has done well because they are willing to totally rebuild their early and mid-game to please that fat, happy middle group who is happiest strolling slooowwwly through the mid-levels. There was a brilliant consumer article a few months ago - that I wish I could find now - that identified this fact as part of a major change in gaming; the casual market, who tend not to complain and just want smooth, easy rides, are now putting far more money into products like WoW than the former king demographic - the vocal hardcore who are not only less numerous, but who also place demands on developers more loudly, more frequently and expecting far more precision.

[RogueIce]

It's weird though. I've done melee in other MMOs and I've never seemed to have this much annoyance at it. I seem to be "Not Facing Enemy" or "Out of Range" more often than not. I didn't really have this issue when I dabbled in WoW and I can wack away just fine in DDO. But for some reason SWTOR's melee just doesn't like to work for me.

Melee at release was a lot more annoying. You could be kited by casters all day long because you almost had to be clipping into another player to attack them. I always joked that two ranged PvE mobs could kill me all day if they were smart enough to keep moving away, yet stay within the minimum range of force leap. IIRC, they "fixed" this issue by just giving melee a 4m range. That said even when I quit, I could not reliably hit a moving target with force sweep, even if I was clipping into their character model. You pretty much had to spec into the root on force leap to make sweep viable.

Well that sucks. Because SWG outside, I'm one of those who likes to be a Jedi in my Star Wars games. I'll admit to this weakness. But if whacking with a lightsaber is going to be annoying, guess I'll stick with my Trooper. Which of the two JK advanced classes does better ranged? Relatively speaking, of course.

And speaking of the advanced classes, I'm going to run a Trooper/Commando who uses only blaster rifles. Because I wasn't terribly impressed with the Vanguard having a bunch of melee attacks, but at the same time I hate the BFGs that Commando is 'destined' to use. I have learned thanks to GenChat that I'll likely lose a couple abilities and some DPS but as far as PVE is concerned it shouldn't be a big deal. I'll never get invited to a raid group and roundly mocked/hated (by my side ) in PvP, showing up as a Commando with a blaster rifle on my back I'll bet, but I've never really cared about those too much anyway.

Speaking of AC tomfoolery, has anyone tried to do or heard about a Level 50 Basic Class Only run? How viable would that be?

[Mr Bean]

Well that sucks. Because SWG outside, I'm one of those who likes to be a Jedi in my Star Wars games. I'll admit to this weakness. But if whacking with a lightsaber is going to be annoying, guess I'll stick with my Trooper. Which of the two JK advanced classes does better ranged? Relatively speaking, of course.

And speaking of the advanced classes, I'm going to run a Trooper/Commando who uses only blaster rifles. Because I wasn't terribly impressed with the Vanguard having a bunch of melee attacks, but at the same time I hate the BFGs that Commando is 'destined' to use. I have learned thanks to GenChat that I'll likely lose a couple abilities and some DPS but as far as PVE is concerned it shouldn't be a big deal. I'll never get invited to a raid group and roundly mocked/hated (by my side ) in PvP, showing up as a Commando with a blaster rifle on my back I'll bet, but I've never really cared about those too much anyway.

Speaking of AC tomfoolery, has anyone tried to do or heard about a Level 50 Basic Class Only run? How viable would that be?

First off the problem with Commandos using Blaster Rifles is you lose access to literally all of your class abilities aside from healing. Hail of Bolts, Demo Round, Grav round and for some reason Plasma grenade all require you to have an Assault Canon equipped.

As for basic class only, it's quite possible with Inquisitors and Councillors, Agents and Smugglers who both get enough attacks to make a decent attack chain. Slow as heck and you miss out on all sorts of benefits of course but it's quite possible.

[TheFeniX]

I don't know if it's the game itself so much as their ability to appeal most strongly to the semi-casual market, somewhere above the casual Farmville crowd but below the hardcore guys who race through early and midgame content to get to the max levels and high-end competitive PvP.

I see your point. At the end of the day, SWTOR only has 4 real storylines per faction. And even then, only 2 if you consider to lack of divergence of Force User Vs Other. And then eveything intersects EVERYWHERE. I find the only real way to enjoy SWTOR is to run with a 4 person group, each of a different class. But if you level a bit solo and try something new, have fun doing 90% of the same content over and over.

Meanwhile, WoW has more than a few possibilities that can let different characters never cross over the same content as previous PCs. At least until BC.

Those latter types have traditionally been considered the an important demographic in gaming

Well, let's face facts: they were the only demographic that really existed up until around 2000 on. No one was willing to put in the time on a PC to get games running unless they were "hardcore" about it. Now you can get a PC capable of running pretty much any well optimized game for $300 or less depending. And Blizzard, out of any other Dev I've seen, really has the edge in the "our games will run on a toaster oven if you're willing to deal with low settings." But WoW managed to get all that casual content AND offer the endgame crew their (albeit buggy) pretty good endgame content. Cata was Blizzard's wake-up call about catering to the "hardcore." The original Cata endgame content was brutal and the community reacted violently. Nerfs were being pushed out constantly and most of it ended up as a cake-walk besides Heroic Raids.

Well that sucks. Because SWG outside, I'm one of those who likes to be a Jedi in my Star Wars games. I'll admit to this weakness. But if whacking with a lightsaber is going to be annoying, guess I'll stick with my Trooper. Which of the two JK advanced classes does better ranged? Relatively speaking, of course.

Neither. I still loved my Guardian being in the middle of everything leaping around like a mad man dealing incredible amounts of AOE damage. But if you want to play smarter and melt faces if you're good, go Sentinel. Their upfront DPS is staggering and they have arguably better defensive cooldowns than Tank Guardians. But they are both decidedly melee classes and you won't get anything done if you can't close the distance.

Vanguard is hella fun though. You're a 4-button murder machine in PvP and PvE. It's by far one of the easier classes to play but has enough extras to make it an advanced class to master. Contrast to Guardian where you have to manage 20 abilities to even be viable in PvE and PvP.... unless you're smash spec and those guys are worthless.

Speaking of AC tomfoolery, has anyone tried to do or heard about a Level 50 Basic Class Only run? How viable would that be?

Try it out. I have no idea.

[RogueIce]

Vanguard is hella fun though. You're a 4-button murder machine in PvP and PvE. It's by far one of the easier classes to play but has enough extras to make it an advanced class to master. Contrast to Guardian where you have to manage 20 abilities to even be viable in PvE and PvP.... unless you're smash spec and those guys are worthless.

If those four buttons are all 30m ranged attacks I may just be sold on Vanguard.

I see your point. At the end of the day, SWTOR only has 4 real storylines per faction. And even then, only 2 if you consider to lack of divergence of Force User Vs Other. And then eveything intersects EVERYWHERE. I find the only real way to enjoy SWTOR is to run with a 4 person group, each of a different class. But if you level a bit solo and try something new, have fun doing 90% of the same content over and over.

Meanwhile, WoW has more than a few possibilities that can let different characters never cross over the same content as previous PCs. At least until BC.

This is honestly an issue I have with the game. And why I have a level 1 Smuggler who I will likely take a very long time to level; I've done Ord Mantell, twice now, and doing 95% of the same thing again but with a different character is not appealing to me. To be fair of the MMOs I've played TOR is not the worst offender: levelling an alt in STO is even more painful since there's basically one story per faction with only very minor differences in some optional goals and playstyle.

But it's going to be annoying with every side quest being the same, and even where you go is also the same, just with a few different phase doors here and there. I can only imagine Coruscant will be the most boring part of the game since it seems all four Republic classes will be there, and I'm guessing whatever the Sith Capital planet is will be similar. And since I've seen a lot of mid-level Jedi running around Ord Mantell I'm guessing even they will be going through. Will they have the same side-quests or different ones?

Essentially those story missions had better be damn worth it or I'll just be taking huge breaks from the sameness of it all. The only saving grace I can see with my Smuggler is going to be playing like Han Solo from the OT: gradually going from "I'm in it for the money" to a "Hey maybe this is a cause worth fighting for" or something like that. Assuming the dialogue choices and script really let me do so semi-naturally.

[TheFeniX]

If those four buttons are all 30m ranged attacks I may just be sold on Vanguard.

You've got High Impact Bolt and your sticky grenade. That's about it for ranged unless you're assault, then you're a DoT DPS. You can really just load guys up with DoTs and Stock Strike them when HiB is on cooldown or not procing. You auto-attack a lot as Vanguard and that's ranged. With Tactics, you really just need to gut when the bleed is down to get it back up and stock strike/auto-attack like a madman.

You can do some damage at range, but if you want EZ mode ranged combat, go Commando. My only issue with Commando, other than it's not a tank class, is that it's more a turret class. I like to stay on the move.

To be fair of the MMOs I've played TOR is not the worst offender: levelling an alt in STO is even more painful since there's basically one story per faction with only very minor differences in some optional goals and playstyle.

At least you could farm those "Kill 8 groups of ships" engagements or do PvP. Each leveling areas of STO had numerous little bits you could do to get you to your next rank. Since EA/BW gutted money and experienced gained in PvP, it's not a valid way to level anymore. You either quest or you don't level as their aren't enough flashpoints on the level scale and they give crap XP anyway.

And since I've seen a lot of mid-level Jedi running around Ord Mantell I'm guessing even they will be going through. Will they have the same side-quests or different ones?

There's a class quest at around 25 or so that sends JKs to Ord Mantell for one quest. The entire game goes like this:
1. Arrive on a planet, get your first story quest and you can pick up the "planet quest." Do or do not side-quests.
2. Do that part of the Story and Planet Quest.
3. Move onto a new area. Do or do not Side Quests.
4. Repeat Step 2.
5. Beat Story Quest, leave planet. Planet quest remains in log unless you do it.... or it gets bugged.

You'll run into a new area and almost certainly see 4 Class Instances near each other. You, obviously, go into 1 out of the 4 (whichever is green). The only issue I had when leveling with each of the classes was that YOU ALWAYS do the Jedi Consular quest first. They have a lot more backtracking, whereas the JK is basically 50 levels of "go here, kick this guy's ass, move on." Oh and if you do the planet quest, some planets have a "Bonus area" with harder mobs and more money/XP. They are worthless, unless you're getting gimped for XP because of F2P.

The only time you break off from other classes of your faction is when they make you run back to Corcuscant, Tython or whatever for more bullshit timesinks AND when you get a Story Quest in another area. You'll end up at times getting something like "Go assault this ship in space." You can take friends, but it's basically a dungeon that exists in vacuum. Basically, when you beat a planet, you're likely going to get some quests to run around like an idiot for an hour or so or get sent on some side-bit for your class quest.

Essentially those story missions had better be damn worth it or I'll just be taking huge breaks from the sameness of it all.

The only class quest I've heard that was worth doing was the Imperial Agent. And that's likely because it's the only class BW writers actually had to come up with something on rather than just taking SW cliches beaten to death over the past 40 years and giving them horrible animations and voice acting.

The only saving grace I can see with my Smuggler is going to be playing like Han Solo from the OT: gradually going from "I'm in it for the money" to a "Hey maybe this is a cause worth fighting for" or something like that. Assuming the dialogue choices and script really let me do so semi-naturally.

I leveled with a smuggler. They get some of the best dialog choices. However, you never feel like a smuggler. You're basically just a hired gun. And yes, you're basically a Han Solo copy. Your "cause worth fighting for" schtick is not only in the game, but feels like it was ripped directly from the WEG SW D6 Sourcebook. But that's par for the course because the game, at least Republic side, is nothing but hilarious Sci-Fi and Fantasy Cliches. Shit, the Trooper storyline is like those old "Dirty Harry" movies. I almost expected my CO (a woman they tried to portray as old by giving her gray hair, except she had breasts larger than her head and an ass that won't quit) to yell "Turn in your badge and gun, you're off this case!" at times.

But hey, we can't all get payment in Kisses.

[Lurks-no-More]

F2P is functional, but going for Pref status (costs $5, one-time purchase of Cartel coins which you can then use on stuff you want in the game) improves it quite a bit - sprint, trading, two crew skills per character, etc.

Personally, I'm very much enjoying the story (Jedi Consular) so far, and since I'm playing with a friend who's tanking as a Jedi Knight, we can tackle Heroic areas and flashpoints.

[Cykeisme]

Whoa, I'd like to thank you guys for having this discussion thread here, I was about to actually try it out, but randomly came to the GEC forum.

Sounds like they don't understand the concept of making money with an F2P game with microtransactions. Hell, even full-on Korean-style pay-to-win would work better than pay-to-activate-basic-functionality.

Never mind people trying it and quitting out of frustration without paying a cent, I'm sure there are (at least a few) people who would hear about how bad the F2P limitations are and avoid trying it at all. I know, because I'm one of them now.

[PREDATOR490]

Yay... a new DLC expansion has come out for KOTOR 3. How epicly shit.

Coming Spring 2013
Pre-Order by 7th Jan

Star Wars: Rise of the Hutt Cartel

Features
Experience 5 new levels, including story-driven missions, as the level cap increases to 55 !
- Bullshit filler crap
- Stay tuned for more information coming soon - over the next few MONTHS we will reveal more exciting new features

The whiff of pathetic desperation is strong in this one and I find it hilarious how it telegraphs Bioware are so fucked the best they can do is offer an expansion that you wont really get in full until Spring 2013 and they dont even tell you what the fucking features are except. 5 new levels.
Pre-Order now so you can... complete a brand new planet in the 5 extra days of playing then be completely fucked trying to re-grind your gear by doing the same dailies you grinded for the other gear.

[Stormin]