WoW: Warlords of Draenor

[Broomstick]

I just want to hit things and get shinies.

^ That has largely been my entire "career" in WoW. That and simply exploring.

[TheFeniX]

at least the new warchief of the Horde isn't an orc (shame that it'll probably get reconned out by this expansion).

Mr. "I threw wave after wave of my own men at the Juggernaut until it hit it's kill limit and shut down," gets the nod over Lorethemar who was able keep Jania from going completely overboard and just nuking every Horde asshole she could find. That guy is just classy as fuck while doing it too. Of course, one raid later, Jania is back to talking shit about him because.... Quality Blizzard Writing!

Vol'Jin is a useless sack. I would have paid cash money, even if it was a deleted scene that I was forced to never speak of to anyone, to see Varian stomp Vol'Jins shit for daring to glare at him like he did at the end of PandaLand. Varian might also be a poorly written idiot like the rest of the not-Thrall brigade, but I'd bet the farm on him in a fight against "I got stabbed in the neck, make me da warchief!"

But I agree: it's nice at least they picked something that wasn't an Orc and players would have likely rioted if they put a Belf in charge. A shame about the hate I've seen for Lorethemar by the Horde. Just from what little I've seen as an Alliance player, I'd roll a Horde PC just to fight along side him at Galakras.

[TheFeniX]

I just want to hit things and get shinies.

^ That has largely been my entire "career" in WoW. That and simply exploring.

Back before flying in Classic, I made it a point to explore all of Azeroth before I hit 60 on my Paladin. Same with the other zones when I got high enough to get there. I remember being in Redridge heading to Burning Steppes some 80 Warlock said "That's a high level area." I said "That's the point!" and headed off on my charger dodging mobs, bubbling when I had to, hopeing Hammer of Justice would work when things got real bad, running in fear from ?? Paladins in Swamp of Sorrows, saluting low level Belfs in Ghostlands, and other such nonsense. Then finally, weeks later after hitting 80, I went back to get my one last exploration: City of Orgrimmar.

I charged in the gate on my mount past all the dueling Horde outside, guards chasing me, got dismounted by a daze, and yet my achievement popped for all to see. I promptly bubbled and did a dance. After about 8 seconds, I exploded into a spectacular fireball as about 20 Horde opened fire on me.

That... was a fun time.

[Darmalus]

They seem to be planning on gating Heroic LFG dungeons behind Proving Grounds. While this sounds good on paper, I have my doubts about how well they can calibrate PG without giving every spec a unique PG (more investment than I think they are willing to give). As it is, PG is kinda worthless due to how radically specs change at 530+ ilvl compared to 463 ilvl. It's currently so uneven, some specs struggle for silver while other can faceroll to gold and beyond.

[dragon]

been a while since i played and getting back in the game and seen ilvl in the discussions in the cities. What is ilvl?

[Gerald Tarrant]

been a while since i played and getting back in the game and seen ilvl in the discussions in the cities. What is ilvl?

It stands for Item level, it's a blizzard method of tracking how good your gear is. It's used in the LFR system to keep the horrendously under-geared out of content they aren't up for, other people can use it to eyeball about how geared your character is when doing things like flexible raid. Last time I played it still had some quirks, in that you could sneak into LFR's in PvP gear. It's also only an approximation of how good the piece is. Paladin tanks love to stack haste, and most of the major fan sites that help you improve your build been sold on that approach; so Ask Mr Robot would sometimes recommend stuff 10 or 11 item level points below another piece, because it had the right secondary stats.

If you're looking to get into raiding improving your item level is the best way to get your character into the later raids.

[TheFeniX]

They seem to be planning on gating Heroic LFG dungeons behind Proving Grounds. While this sounds good on paper, I have my doubts about how well they can calibrate PG without giving every spec a unique PG (more investment than I think they are willing to give). As it is, PG is kinda worthless due to how radically specs change at 530+ ilvl compared to 463 ilvl. It's currently so uneven, some specs struggle for silver while other can faceroll to gold and beyond.

Howling Blarg made it so boring, I haven't even gone past bronze. It'll probably end up like forcing players to find dungeon entrances before being able to queue: a decent idea in theory, dumb in practice.

You're going to end up with LFD queue times in the 45 minute range again and the playerbase isn't going to like that. I'm not saying PG is a bad idea, it's a great one, but players can be taught any number of things and they'll just ignore it when the meatgrinder comes up. Blizzard cultivated a fanbase and to keep it, there has to be a balance like in a F2P game: make the gear gate just hard enough that you aren't throwing out free epics, but not too hard as to drive people away. To make it so a majority of the playerbase can pass it, it's going to be so under-tuned as to make it a joke.

I mean, holy shit, do you remember the fit the average player had when heroics in cata only dropped rares and they had to deal with actual raiding to get full epics? ZA/ZG to the rescue!

It stands for Item level, it's a blizzard method of tracking how good your gear is. It's used in the LFR system to keep the horrendously under-geared out of content they aren't up for, other people can use it to eyeball about how geared your character is when doing things like flexible raid.

This. It's basically Gear Score with less math.

Last time I played it still had some quirks, in that you could sneak into LFR's in PvP gear. It's also only an approximation of how good the piece is.

Since PvP stats don't sacrifice a secondary stat anymore, this isn't an issue. Now many players are farming the 522 PvP gear to get into flexs and raids and it's not hurting the raid if the optimization is good.

Paladin tanks love to stack haste, and most of the major fan sites that help you improve your build been sold on that approach; so Ask Mr Robot would sometimes recommend stuff 10 or 11 item level points below another piece, because it had the right secondary stats.

No shit, like my BiS tanking trink being HThunderforge Spark of the Zandalari? Fuck trying to get that. Either way, the Malkoriak trink is just fine when combined with Thok's Tailtip.

Tanking is seeing a massive overhaul across all classes. Threat is going to be more based around damage and active mitigation as part of your rotation rather then a reliance on Cooldowns. But there is nothing more hilarious than seeing a Haste/Mastery item drop and the other pally tank saying "pass, that's DPS gear."

[Darth Yan]

I'll just restate what I said several months ago because it sums up why i dislike this direction
Honestly, in Blizzards attempts to make the horde awesome they forgot what made them appealing to play as. In the 2006 book rise of the horde Thrall says

"To pretend it [the demonic corruption] did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back. And having made that choice, we can, with the knowledge that we have of the end of that dark and shameful road, choose not to take it."[1]

Back then, playing the horde actually felt like a redemption quest. It raised the point that while the orcs were still tricked into walking the path of darkness, they still consciously made the choice to walk it, and had a hand in their own fall (they still bought into kil'jaeden's lies, they still slaughtered the draenei because they thought they were a threat (though to be brutally honest any human society can do this. The Balkan genocides, the holocaust, are all cases), they still drank the blood, they still ruined their world and turned their back on the shaman way.) Even though they were lied to, and regretted what they had done, they still played a role in their damnation. Because of that, playing as the horde honestly made me feel like I was playing as a redeemed warrior trying to survive while making amends for the sins of my people.

Now, the Horde just seems like a bunch of assholes who have learned nothing. While I get that Daelin's actions and growing up the internment camp definately helped to make the orcs bitter (face it if you spent the first years of your life in crowded internment camps with daily beatings, no food medicine water shelter etc and were constantly crowded and crouching in your own feces you would be pretty bitter) it still feels like they haven't learned anything. For all his flaws Grom did ultimately make the right choice when he rejected mannoroths third and final attempt to tempt him to the dark side. Now the whole redemption (what made the orcs cool) just seems insincere.

In Starcraft, it's implied that while Amon's taint did influence Kerrigan, it was at best a partial influence (amplifying anger and rage that was already there.) Kerrigan is ultimately a better person in heart of the swarm, but she still did nasty things until she was called out on it.

[Darmalus]

What made made the Horde appeal to me way back in 2005 was two things:
1) Not yet another generic human fantasy kingdom.
2) Not the evil side in a good vs evil story.
I wanted to push Garrosh into that bonfire he was crying into in TBC, and my only reaction to him in Wrath was "Oh god, not this worthless ass again." and my opinion went downhill from there.

They are adding enough changes and systems to WoD that the PG requirements may work out. I'll probably stick with the Normal dungeons -> LFG path for all but my main.

The game is 90-95% single player PvE content with attached chatroom for me, so my main concern when they rebalanced abilities is how it affects that. Mobility, snares and stuns are what make content actually interesting. If I wind up going back to vanilla style "stand there, take every hit and hope he dies first while doing my rotation" on my main, I'll be rather unhappy.

[TheFeniX]

I get that the Orcs are a huge part in the formation of the Horde, but the whole "redemption" angle doesn't hold out when you factor in that they aren't even a native Azeroth race and the other races don't fit this profile at all. The Trolls are just pissed at attempted genocide by asshole Nightelves, the Tauren are laid-back and haven't been involved in pretty much any of the bullshit, and the Undead are irredeemable assholes who have no excuse to even be in the game as playable characters. Everyone should want to burn them to ashes. I would have envisioned them as a "hardmode" race and a separate faction KoS to either the Horde or Alliance.

Presently, there are no races that should stick with the Horde in 100% numbers and the Alliance has fucked things up enough where there should be a sizable group considering the Horde a better choice. Basically, if the Lore trumped the gameplay, you'd have Alliance Orcs and Horde Humans by now. Although, there really wouldn't be a Horde if you did that, what with all the warcrimes and likely child murder for sport. No sane ruler would have left the Horde intact like Varian did. At the least, massive sanctions and reparations for Theramore would have been demanded and what was left of the Horde wouldn't have been in a position to say no.

But the cannon ending to MoP is likely going to be "The Horde did everything and it was really the Alliance (not super-awesome Vol-who?) that threw away most of their attacking force on the Gates of Org. This is kind of what happens when you write almost exclusively for one faction: it gets stupid.

If I wind up going back to vanilla style "stand there, take every hit and hope he dies first while doing my rotation" on my main, I'll be rather unhappy.

At least ranged has a selection. Your complaint is pretty much the melee "class" to a T.

Anyways, since my Internet future is in doubt, I had to get whatever raiding in this week I could. And for the first fucking time ever, the Greatsword of Pride's Fall dropped in 10-man. And also for the first time ever, we had a plate DPS. God damn it. Bonus roll, more gold. So, my Ret set stands locked to it's DPS with a shitty LFR weapon, but my Paladin still looks classy as Hell.

[Darmalus]

I get that the Orcs are a huge part in the formation of the Horde, but the whole "redemption" angle doesn't hold out when you factor in that they aren't even a native Azeroth race and the other races don't fit this profile at all. The Trolls are just pissed at attempted genocide by asshole Nightelves, the Tauren are laid-back and haven't been involved in pretty much any of the bullshit, and the Undead are irredeemable assholes who have no excuse to even be in the game as playable characters. Everyone should want to burn them to ashes. I would have envisioned them as a "hardmode" race and a separate faction KoS to either the Horde or Alliance.

Don't presume to speak for everyone, you bias is showing. Considering the forsaken are basically just particularly angry, smelly humans the constant cries by Alliance players for genocide are pretty telling.

Presently, there are no races that should stick with the Horde in 100% numbers and the Alliance has fucked things up enough where there should be a sizable group considering the Horde a better choice. Basically, if the Lore trumped the gameplay, you'd have Alliance Orcs and Horde Humans by now. Although, there really wouldn't be a Horde if you did that, what with all the warcrimes and likely child murder for sport. No sane ruler would have left the Horde intact like Varian did. At the least, massive sanctions and reparations for Theramore would have been demanded and what was left of the Horde wouldn't have been in a position to say no.

But the cannon ending to MoP is likely going to be "The Horde did everything and it was really the Alliance (not super-awesome Vol-who?) that threw away most of their attacking force on the Gates of Org. This is kind of what happens when you write almost exclusively for one faction: it gets stupid.

The binary A/H requirement for all player factions and territorial balance is silly and leads to silly things. If I had a time machine, I'd go back and have all players in a common pool and make your race simply decide you starting zone and home city-state. No Alliance or Horde, just a network of alliances that shift every expansion based on what happened last expansion.

If I wind up going back to vanilla style "stand there, take every hit and hope he dies first while doing my rotation" on my main, I'll be rather unhappy.

At least ranged has a selection. Your complaint is pretty much the melee "class" to a T.

Actually I was describing life as a soloing caster before we got cast on the move and instants. Less armor, health and mobility than a melee, but you basically wound up doing the same thing, stand there and take it on the chin till one of you died. Without a tank to distract a mob, life sucked. Being a turret sucks.

[TheFeniX]

Don't presume to speak for everyone, you bias is showing. Considering the forsaken are basically just particularly angry, smelly humans the constant cries by Alliance players for genocide are pretty telling.

You mean other than their disdain for anything living, their willingness to murder neutral factions and even their own to create more Forsaken? They've been trying to bolster their ranks at every opportunity, even when ordered not to.

The Forsaken are undeniably an evil "race" when you take into account the story progression of WoW and some of the other fluff, even if there are notable exceptions. Being angry about everyone wanting to kill you is one thing. But everyone wants to kill you because your continued existence is damaging to the land and the people. But hey, I'm sure all those Gilneans are super-biased for infecting themselves with Lyncanthropy to keep the "just angry" Forsaken from turning them all into bone-bags.

And of course the Alliance would be biased against the Forsaken and the Horde (Pre-Belfs) wouldn't: the Forsaken aren't dragging Orc, Tauren, or Troll dead out of the ground to build an army, because it doesn't work like that. Lorethemar understandably does not like the Forsaken (Sylvanaas in particular) at all and he's spot on because she's a psycho-bitch who would slaughter his entire race to raise more Undead.

[Grumman]

That's rather disappointing. I only knew the character from Warcraft 3, but I assumed that they would have made the Forsaken above that kind of behaviour. Seeing as their leader was tortured to and beyond death by Arthas, I'd think "don't be like Arthas" would be point #1 on their agenda.

[TheFeniX]

That's rather disappointing. I only knew the character from Warcraft 3, but I assumed that they would have made the Forsaken above that kind of behaviour. Seeing as their leader was tortured to and beyond death by Arthas, I'd think "don't be like Arthas" would be point #1 on their agenda.

Someone should have demoted Sylvanas from Undead back to full-dead years ago. You can hear a bit of the back and forth between her and Lorethemar in SoO Galakras fight:
Bitch Queen: "I'll raise your dead to a horrid existence just to win this fight."
Captain Eyepatch: "Fuck off."
Ms. "I'm totally not evil:""Dur, lack of commitment. I'll instead do that to our Alliance allies."

There was so much they could have done with the Forsaken, instead Blizzard just throws around an idiot ball because the Undead must stay Horde to facilitate the faction balance. We know for certain in WoW that people have "souls" or at least a spirit that continues to exist after death. So what the Undead do is terrible vs just animating corpses. And Sylvannas has no compunction against using it and will even wipe out entire neutral human cities, such as Gilneas, to do so. I don't think there's been an expansion where the Forsaken haven't shown their true colors blatantly.

Having the Forsaken as part of the Horde really hurts the "not evil" argument for them.

[Darmalus]

Your one-sided bias is hilarious.

Don't presume to speak for everyone, you bias is showing. Considering the forsaken are basically just particularly angry, smelly humans the constant cries by Alliance players for genocide are pretty telling.

You mean other than their disdain for anything living, their willingness to murder neutral factions and even their own to create more Forsaken? They've been trying to bolster their ranks at every opportunity, even when ordered not to.

They raise the dead, and give them the option of join the forsaken, go independent or return to the grave permanently. Considering how many join them willingly, being dead must suck.

And before you pull out the "Lich Queen" nonsense, no, they are not mind controlled. The ones raised under combat conditions (rather than a leisurely raising in a graveyard) are frenzied and easily influenced when they first pop up, but they calm down after a while and get the same options. Is it shady to take advantage of that? Sure, but it's not mind control either.

The Forsaken are undeniably an evil "race" when you take into account the story progression of WoW and some of the other fluff, even if there are notable exceptions. Being angry about everyone wanting to kill you is one thing. But everyone wants to kill you because your continued existence is damaging to the land

changing their land to better suit them, no different than the dwarves daming up a river

and the people.

Rebels funded by hostile outside powers. I'm sure Stormwind would be totally cool with Orgimmar funding the Defias Brotherhood.

But hey, I'm sure all those Gilneans are super-biased for infecting themselves with Lyncanthropy to keep the "just angry" Forsaken from turning them all into bone-bags.

Yeah, they hated the werewolves and the undead, but with Garrosh forcing a conflict Sylvanas didn't exactly have the option of ignoring non-hostile human settlements in her area anymore.

And don't get me started on the damn worgen. Being a worgen totally sucks and you lose control.. except you don't anymore its all fun and rainbows plus you get superpowers with no downsides now. Awful, awful writing, that entire zone, what a waste. Multiple re-writes, quest designers not talking to each other, what a mess.

And of course the Alliance would be biased against the Forsaken and the Horde (Pre-Belfs) wouldn't: the Forsaken aren't dragging Orc, Tauren, or Troll dead out of the ground to build an army, because it doesn't work like that. Lorethemar understandably does not like the Forsaken (Sylvanaas in particular) at all and he's spot on because she's a psycho-bitch who would slaughter his entire race to raise more Undead.

If you weren't paying attention to Dalaran in 5.1, Windrunners, living or undead, tend to be dicks to basically everyone. And apparently Sylvanas only knows how to raise human and elf undead.

I'm kind surprised that Horde members don't go around with dogtags saying "DO/DO NOT Raise me as Forsaken." but then again, the only Horde members that would be an option for ATM are Belfs. I hope they fix that, I'd love to see some non-DK undead tauren tearing it up on the battlefield.

[Lord Revan]

actually it's even more simple then that, pre-TBC horde didn't mind the Forsaken too much cause bulk of the Horde forces in in Central Kalimdor with a miles wide ocean between them and the core of the Forsaken forces, Quel'thalas on the other hand is protected only by the runestone barrier that thanks to the Scourge invasion works only when it feels like it. There's really only 2 things stopping Sylvanas from marching into Silvermoon 1)any movement like that would drive the Blood Elves back to the alliance 2)there's still parts of her that are the old Sylvanas even if they're minor and getting smaller.

[TheFeniX]

They raise the dead, and give them the option of join the forsaken, go independent or return to the grave permanently. Considering how many join them willingly, being dead must suck.

So, a recently resurrected corpse, with no memory of their past life, now has the choice to "die," run off alone into a world that isn't suited for them, or join up with their own kind? Hard choices. So "hard," Blizzard doesn't even let you make the choice (for gameplay reasons, admittedly). And these aren't Death Knights, powerful warriors from the start and admittedly all created in one time-frame (there are no "new" Death Knights lore-wise). These are constantly risen corpses with little to no starting skill.

That's a "choice," but a shitty one and why many of them cannot leave. And it's irresponsible on part of the Forsaken anyways and further shows how few fucks they give. Those choices read much more of a desperate attempt at Blizzard to sell bullshit.

And before you pull out the "Lich Queen" nonsense, no, they are not mind controlled. The ones raised under combat conditions (rather than a leisurely raising in a graveyard) are frenzied and easily influenced when they first pop up, but they calm down after a while and get the same options. Is it shady to take advantage of that? Sure, but it's not mind control either.

You and I have much different ideas on "evil." Just like certain religious cults let any of their kids leave whenever, they ill equip them to survive in the outside world and make them leave with nothing.

And I haven't done it but I've heard of quests in Andorhall with recently turned undead yelling: "GLORY TO THE DARK LADY." Even Blizzard can't seem to decide if Forsaken are MCed or not.

changing their land to better suit them, no different than the dwarves daming up a river

Are we really comparing daming a river (done for reason that can hurt wildlife, but usually make things better for sapient life) vs making land uninhabitable to all life? The Forsaken way of unlife is destructive to every other living species in Azeroth. And that only concerns their mere existence, not the bullshit they constantly pull.

Rebels funded by hostile outside powers. I'm sure Stormwind would be totally cool with Orgimmar funding the Defias Brotherhood.

I don't get this reference. Please expand.

Yeah, they hated the werewolves and the undead, but with Garrosh forcing a conflict Sylvanas didn't exactly have the option of ignoring non-hostile human settlements in her area anymore.

So, it's either ignore, or kill then raise them as slaves? Oh wait, "non-mindcontrolled undead with no other options than to server the Forsaken because they've pissed every living race off so much they'd kill you on sight." I'm sure this same line of reasoning lead to Theramore getting nuked and it's inhabitants (including children) being held as slaves in Org.

And don't get me started on the damn worgen. Being a worgen totally sucks and you lose control.. except you don't anymore its all fun and rainbows plus you get superpowers with no downsides now. Awful, awful writing, that entire zone, what a waste. Multiple re-writes, quest designers not talking to each other, what a mess.

Blizzard writing sucks, but that isn't the point. The point is that your "rainbows" talk is relevant because people keep ignoring how shitty the Forsaken really are when left to their own devices.

Forsaken are like an alien race that breathes cyanide trying to colonize Earth: you aren't welcome here, fuck off. You seem to think this is Alliance bias on my part when I couldn't really give two-shit about that. The Horde have no reason to put up with the Forsaken with the exception of reasons I'll go into in a second.

If you weren't paying attention to Dalaran in 5.1, Windrunners, living or undead, tend to be dicks to basically everyone. And apparently Sylvanas only knows how to raise human and elf undead.

That has nothing to do with anything.

I'm kind surprised that Horde members don't go around with dogtags saying "DO/DO NOT Raise me as Forsaken." but then again, the only Horde members that would be an option for ATM are Belfs. I hope they fix that, I'd love to see some non-DK undead tauren tearing it up on the battlefield.

And this is probably the key point: undead are the dogs of the Horde. They are tolerated because they make good fodder and, more specifically, up until BC: no Horde had to worry about being raised as one. So even if Rosh and Thrall didn't like it, well no Orcs are being violated and Orcs are the only Horde that matter. The idiot ball comes into play with shit like the Wrathgate and how it's really just the most blatant example of bullfuckery.

The Shamanistic nature of the Orcs, Trolls, and Tauren just don't jive with anything the Forsaken bring to the table and the Belfs have no reason to be with the Horde while Forsaken are allowed to run lose.

[Darth Yan]

They actually do explain why Varian agreed to a ceasefire. They're tired as is, and even if they win, they'll bleed themselves more, and have to worry about occupying the horde lands. A ceasefire gives them time to regroup and gives them a moral victory (if the horde goes to war next time, the alliance can say "we gave you a chance, now we show no mercy."

[TheFeniX]

They actually do explain why Varian agreed to a ceasefire. They're tired as is, and even if they win, they'll bleed themselves more, and have to worry about occupying the horde lands.

This is the concept behind pushing for reparations. The Horde would then have to either call Varian's bluff or risk another war right after a civil war. Blizzard's explanation was dumb.

A ceasefire gives them time to regroup

They are literally standing in the heart of Horde territory with a substantial force that already smashed the defenses of Org. The Horde faction leaders are standing right there. Jania is one-foot in the crazy, but I doubt she was wrong that Varian could crush the Horde standing in the room. The Black Prince seemed confident that Org would fall with an Alliance victory, only the push on Thunder Bluff being hella costly. But exactly how long would the Horde stand with every important faction lead either dead or in an Alliance prison? Thunder Bluff is a moot point, the Horde would crater.

Once again, the Alliance have everything, but leave with nothing. I don't care if you favor Alliance or Horde: the ending to Pandaland was even dumber than the "My planet needs me, I must go" ending to Cata.

and gives them a moral victory (if the horde goes to war next time, the alliance can say "we gave you a chance, now we show no mercy."

Moral victories are the only victories Alliance ever gets. I honestly couldn't care less, because I play the game to play the game, not to "win" because Blizzard's writing team decided I should. But it's funny because the war isn't going to die, due to gameplay, so the "No Mercy" shit is going to be hilarious in WoD. Alliance may actually manage to burn down a Horde tent or two with massive loses.

Really, I suspect Jania goes rogue, nukes some Hordies, and ends up a raid boss. And all she ever wanted to do was study.

[Grumman]

They raise the dead, and give them the option of join the forsaken, go independent or return to the grave permanently. Considering how many join them willingly, being dead must suck.

So, a recently resurrected corpse, with no memory of their past life, now has the choice to "die," run off alone into a world that isn't suited for them, or join up with their own kind? Hard choices. So "hard," Blizzard doesn't even let you make the choice (for gameplay reasons, admittedly). And these aren't Death Knights, powerful warriors from the start and admittedly all created in one time-frame (there are no "new" Death Knights lore-wise). These are constantly risen corpses with little to no starting skill.

That's a "choice," but a shitty one and why many of them cannot leave. And it's irresponsible on part of the Forsaken anyways and further shows how few fucks they give. Those choices read much more of a desperate attempt at Blizzard to sell bullshit.

See, that would work so much better if Sylvanas and the Forsaken were undead freedom fighters. Let the Scourge take all the blame for the abhorrent task of raising people to undeath, while the Forsaken get the credit by attacking the Scourge and freeing the pre-Forsaken intelligent undead from their slavery. The tutorial quest could be the optional choice to help them clean up the last few mindless undead.

[Darmalus]

They raise the dead, and give them the option of join the forsaken, go independent or return to the grave permanently. Considering how many join them willingly, being dead must suck.

So, a recently resurrected corpse, with no memory of their past life, now has the choice to "die," run off alone into a world that isn't suited for them, or join up with their own kind? Hard choices. So "hard," Blizzard doesn't even let you make the choice (for gameplay reasons, admittedly). And these aren't Death Knights, powerful warriors from the start and admittedly all created in one time-frame (there are no "new" Death Knights lore-wise). These are constantly risen corpses with little to no starting skill.

That's a "choice," but a shitty one and why many of them cannot leave. And it's irresponsible on part of the Forsaken anyways and further shows how few fucks they give. Those choices read much more of a desperate attempt at Blizzard to sell bullshit.

See, that would work so much better if Sylvanas and the Forsaken were undead freedom fighters. Let the Scourge take all the blame for the abhorrent task of raising people to undeath, while the Forsaken get the credit by attacking the Scourge and freeing the pre-Forsaken intelligent undead from their slavery. The tutorial quest could be the optional choice to help them clean up the last few mindless undead.

Except it's not true. Some have no memories, some have all their memories, with many in between. Some are shocked, some adapt right away, most have an adjustment period.

Just take a horde character to the forsaken starting zone and watch it happen. 3 people get raised, one chooses to return to the afterlife, one joins, and one starts a rebellion against the forsaken.

Oh, and Lillian Voss has a freak out and takes a quest chain to calm down and find a new path for herself, independent of the Forsaken and Horde.

Edit: I guess Azeroth isn't suited to the forsaken. Azeroth wouldn't be suited to humans if everyone tried to kill them on sight too.

[TheFeniX]

Except it's not true. Some have no memories, some have all their memories, with many in between. Some are shocked, some adapt right away, most have an adjustment period.

It still falls back on being irresponsible on part of the Fosaken: why is Sylvanas ressing the dead? For the purpose of raising an army. She isn't recruiting, she's raising the dead and giving them the choices you talked about otherwise. She has no idea how they will react? Or does she? Either way, Galakras shows how little she cares about her newly formed undead. She knows some may not want to fight, but she's willing to raise all the elf and human dead to be used as fodder for the Horde and she doesn't even mention that some might be so pissed off, they'd try to kill her instead. And since they should be raised as level 1 (though that's likely gameplay segregation, I have no idea how powerful an undead she can summon), they wouldn't even be good fodder if they were loyal.

And Lorethemar is willing to kill her, on the spot, if she tried to do it. And the Horde has tried to stop Sylvanas from bolstering her ranks numerous times, even though that would be helpful to the Horde at that particular point in time. Maybe it's because they know, given the chance Slyvanas would murder everyone in both the Alliance and Horde. This is because she ranges from mildly-evil to mustache twirling evil.

Just take a horde character to the forsaken starting zone and watch it happen. 3 people get raised, one chooses to return to the afterlife, one joins, and one starts a rebellion against the forsaken.

Don't you have to put down the rebels? I only leveled an Undead Lock to 10, but I recall downing a few Undead. That's.... pretty fucking evil.

Oh, and Lillian Voss has a freak out and takes a quest chain to calm down and find a new path for herself, independent of the Forsaken and Horde.

Voss is pretty damned evil, even if she is killing other more evil people. She also views her new life as a curse and one she's going to stop the Darkmaster from committing on anyone else. Also, her nature as an undead makes her particularly suspectable to being controlled by necromancers, just like Death Knights can do. That the Forsaken player cannot have this happen to them (they are humanoid, not undead) is purely a gameplay contrivance. This makes it even more irresponsible to let undead out of the Forsaken fold. They're little balls of rage to begin with and can be abused by all sorts of powers.

Edit: I guess Azeroth isn't suited to the forsaken. Azeroth wouldn't be suited to humans if everyone tried to kill them on sight too.

I get the point you're trying to make here and it would normally work, especially for races like the Orcs. But it's like trying to justify the existence of Vampires: they are evil, they hunt and murder humans as part of their "life-cycle," they can frenzy and start indiscriminately murdering because they are evil. Forsaken, even from Blizzard's own fluff from the RPG, are. evil. They have no compunction against not only killing any living thing they see, but also raising their dead to create a new army. They aren't like the Orcs who purged themselves of demonic corruption and could live side-by-side with the Humans if Blizzard didn't need a war in Warcraft. The Forsaken earned everything they got, even if Cata tried to turn it around.

Here's an except from the pre-cata Starting voice-over:

Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must massacre any who pose a threat to the new order, Human, Undead, or otherwise.

And from the War on Gilneas:

Later on, Sylvanas met with General Warhowl, envoy of Warchief Garrosh Hellscream, telling him that Gilneas was under control and agreeing not to use the Forsaken Blight, as its development had been banned after the incident at the Wrathgate. As the emissary left, Sylvanas told High Executor Crenshaw to deploy the new plague as planned, despite Garrosh's command.

And this is after Blizzard started with the post-cata "Nah guys, Forsaken are just misunderstood. They aren't really evil." This is when the Gilneans are trying to evacuate civilians mind you. The Horde has pretty much taken the city and the Alliance is packing their shit and leaving (as they always do).

[Civil War Man]

I've done the cata Forsaken zones, including Andorhal. My impression was that there was more leeway in the early zones. As long as the undead person in question does not actively take up arms against Sylvanas, they let some things slide. It's why they hunted down the Redpath who rebelled, but not Voss.

Silverpine is where that all changed, especially after Godfrey shot Sylvanas in the back. They used mind control before (call it what you want, but knowingly putting someone in a state where they are open to suggestion, then exploiting that condition so they do what you want, is a form of mind control), but after Godfrey she showed absolutely no tolerance towards anyone who disobeys her. Hence, why she kidnaps Koltira. Hell, in the cata beta wpl questing had the Val'kyr openly mind controlling the risen farmers on Sylvanas' explicit orders. When Horde players complained, they removed the text that said they were using mind control, but changed nothing else about the quest.

[TheFeniX]

When Horde players complained, they removed the text that said they were using mind control, but changed nothing else about the quest.

I think there's a disconnect between Blizz and it's Undead playerbase. I didn't play WoW because of time-constraints for gaming, but I did what I could to keep up with the news. From an outside observer, the Forsaken always came off as the evil wing of the otherwise fairly neutral, if not violent, Horde faction. And Blizz didn't seem to have a problem with this as a lot of the fluff painted them this way as well. Even though I didn't start playing till late-LK, Blizzards attempts at turning them around seem hollow because they keep writing lore that paints them as monsters while saying the opposite.

Anyways, we've got some data on the stat crunch

In order to bring things down to a more understandable level, we'll be reducing the scale of stats throughout the game and smoothing out those obsolete spikes, so that power scales linearly through questing content from levels 1 to 85. This applies to creatures, spells, abilities, consumables, gear . . . everything. And while that means your numbers for stats and damage are being reduced by a huge amount, the same goes for creatures' health and damage output. For example, a Fireball that previously hit a creature for 450,000 out of his 3,000,000 health (15% of its health) may now hit that same creature for 30,000 out of its 200,000 health (still 15% of its health).

Just look a the post-LK bar on the graph. It's insane.

And racial revamping:

We want races to have fun and interesting perks, but if some of those traits are too powerful, players may feel compelled to play a specific race even if it’s not really the one they want to play. For example, Trolls' Berserking ability was extremely powerful, and their Beast Slaying passive was either completely irrelevant or tremendously powerful, based on the situation, compared to other racial traits. On the other end of the spectrum, many races had few or no performance-affecting perks. On top of that, a number of racials that currently grant Hit or Expertise will soon need replacing, since those stats are being removed in Warlords of Draenor.

Not mentioned is that Every Man for Himself is likely to get the axe even though it's the only racial that outshines Horde racials (except maybe Shadowmeld) and that's only for PvP content. You should see Horde bitch about EMFH on the PvP forums. When it's brought up that it's the only decent Alliance racial you get shit like "but Shadowmeld can break a hard-cast every 2 minutes!" and Alliance players have no response. I know I couldn't respond to something that stupid.

Horde racials are WTFBBQ over the top compared to Alliance racials in PvE, so it's moot anyways.

[Civil War Man]

WRT racial abilities, I think it would be useful if there was a sort of template where every race got certain types of abilities. So, as a hypothetical example, every race would get 1 CC break, 1 stat boost (either passive like Time is Money or active like Blood Fury), 1 profession boost, and 1 convenience ability (like Diplomacy for Humans or the rested XP ability for Pandaren). If every race has the same types of abilities, then you can at least achieve some semblance of balance around that. It would certainly be harder to get to a weird situation like now where the faction balance across all servers isn't that bad, but a vast majority of the high level raiders and PvP players have faction changed to Horde.