Rome TW and economies,

[Vympel]

http://twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=159

This one maybe? What does it mean:

This mod fixes the missing shoulder segments for all the post reform roman legions models.
*Note these are new "models" they are not new "textures".

?

[Vympel]

Bah, that patch doesn't fix the Silvier Shield Legionaries. Bah.

[Stravo]

OK, playing my first game as the Seulucids (LOVE their opening monolgue) ran into my first defeats in the opening portion of the game as my spearmen were rebuffed from taking a rebel city and another group marching out were outmanuevered by rebel archers. UGH. I almost quit in disgust with myself.

Then Egypt went to war with me.

Now they have been offically powned!! Masses of Spearmen battling each other (Took awhile to get the whole concept of how to use spearmen) while my cavalry swing around and take them out in the rear. My first Elephant charge blasted through a line of infantry and trampled the annoying archers behind them.

Now there is only Alexandria and my Great Leader (many many stars) with his Spearmen (now he has several groups of phalanxes, can't wait to see how they do in battle) is right on its doorstep.

My big question is does anyone have advice on what to do against Rome? I will eventually have to take them on as I intend to sweep westward along North Africa now that I secured my flank with Egypt and I intend a Northward sweep with my better generals to start taking Asia Minor and eventually launch an amphi landing against Greece (where I will run into the Brutii.)

When playing Rome I am accustomed to smirking when I see those massed spearmen. They were so easily countered by my cavalry heavy forces when my infantry held them in place and my archers peppered them. What can I do to counter Rome's forces as the Seulucids?

[Captain Cyran]

OK, playing my first game as the Seulucids (LOVE their opening monolgue) ran into my first defeats in the opening portion of the game as my spearmen were rebuffed from taking a rebel city and another group marching out were outmanuevered by rebel archers. UGH. I almost quit in disgust with myself.

Then Egypt went to war with me.

Now they have been offically powned!! Masses of Spearmen battling each other (Took awhile to get the whole concept of how to use spearmen) while my cavalry swing around and take them out in the rear. My first Elephant charge blasted through a line of infantry and trampled the annoying archers behind them.

Now there is only Alexandria and my Great Leader (many many stars) with his Spearmen (now he has several groups of phalanxes, can't wait to see how they do in battle) is right on its doorstep.

My big question is does anyone have advice on what to do against Rome? I will eventually have to take them on as I intend to sweep westward along North Africa now that I secured my flank with Egypt and I intend a Northward sweep with my better generals to start taking Asia Minor and eventually launch an amphi landing against Greece (where I will run into the Brutii.)

When playing Rome I am accustomed to smirking when I see those massed spearmen. They were so easily countered by my cavalry heavy forces when my infantry held them in place and my archers peppered them. What can I do to counter Rome's forces as the Seulucids?

Elephants, LOTS of cavalry, and a scythed chariot unit or two. Chariots to take out enemy cavalry, Cavalry to get behind lines to take out archers, Elephants to crush their main line. Spearmen will definately be able to hold the line long enough.

[Ace Pace]

Advice on using Roman Spearmen, I find that simply using them to hold a line gets them killed, fast.

[Darth Wong]

As far as I can tell, the best way to use phalanxes is just to hold the enemy main line in place for an extended period while the real action happens around the flanks. If you win the "battle of the flanks", you can crush the enemy with your cavalry or more mobile infantry. If you don't, prepare for pain.

[Captain Cyran]

As far as I can tell, the best way to use phalanxes is just to hold the enemy main line in place for an extended period while the real action happens around the flanks. If you win the "battle of the flanks", you can crush the enemy with your cavalry or more mobile infantry. If you don't, prepare for pain.

That's kind of what I was getting at with my tactic for Stravo. Only I accidentally used the word Spearmen instead of Phalanxes.

[Pablo Sanchez]

When playing Rome I am accustomed to smirking when I see those massed spearmen. They were so easily countered by my cavalry heavy forces when my infantry held them in place and my archers peppered them. What can I do to counter Rome's forces as the Seulucids?

Your battle formation should be composed of three parts, four if you use elephants. Your center will be composed of phalanxes, behind which are your archers (I recommend disabling fire at will for the archers to keep them from shooting your men). Your cavalry will be on the flanks, and you will use them to drive off any enemy mounted or ranged forces and strike their infantry line from the flanks and rear.

There are a few modifications to this formula that I like to use:
1) Deploy all of your cavalry to the right flank, and refuse the opposite flank by turning the phalanx in that direction at a 45 degree angle to the rest of your line. Typically you want an experienced or upgraded spear group to hold that flank.
The advantage of this maneuver is in its speed, in that your cavalry very quickly envelop the enemy's left flank, and in the fact that it is very good at overwhelming opposing cavalry. The AI will usually spread it's cavalry to both flanks, so your concentrated horse will rapidly overrun their opponents while the spears on your left are quite resistant to this move.

2) If you have elephants, put them in front of your center and charge them clean through the enemy as your center closes. No brainer.

Personally, I much prefer the one-dimensional all-hoplite armies of the Greek cities. Challenging to control in battle, overwhelming in victory, and usually horribly massacred in defeat

[Stravo]

Elephants scare me in that I've heard so many horror stories about them getting spooked and charging over their own men. But I realize the potential this unti has once upgraded. Are there certain rules of thumb to follow with elephants - you know like you're not supposed to charge spearmen with cavalry- what's the elephant's main counter on the battlefield?

Also what sort of quality am I getting from the upgraded phalanxes? Is it noticable on the battlefield? I ask this because I noticed as Rome that until I'm facing other Roman units my priori (the first Roman heavy infantry unit you start with if i got the name wrong) can usually hold its own and kick ass against other infantry but I noticed a definate change in the close fights as Seulucids when I got to the Levy Spearmen over the militia spearmen and now I have standard Phalanxes that have not seen battle yet (but will when I get home and launch my assault on Alexandria)

[Pablo Sanchez]

Elephants scare me in that I've heard so many horror stories about them getting spooked and charging over their own men. But I realize the potential this unti has once upgraded. Are there certain rules of thumb to follow with elephants - you know like you're not supposed to charge spearmen with cavalry- what's the elephant's main counter on the battlefield?

Flaming pigs will rout your elephants pretty much without contest. Be very careful to avoid them. Aside from that, just use them intelligently.

Also what sort of quality am I getting from the upgraded phalanxes? Is it noticable on the battlefield? I ask this because I noticed as Rome that until I'm facing other Roman units my priori (the first Roman heavy infantry unit you start with if i got the name wrong) can usually hold its own and kick ass against other infantry

Principes, and those are not a good example when talking about spearmen.

but I noticed a definate change in the close fights as Seulucids when I got to the Levy Spearmen over the militia spearmen and now I have standard Phalanxes that have not seen battle yet (but will when I get home and launch my assault on Alexandria)

With spearmen, you want to go with top quality whenever possible. The main problem with your militia and levy pikemen is that they have very poor morale, meaning they will rout easier and faster. Since your spearmen will generally be in the position of holding the line against heavy attack, you want them to hold as long as possible.

[Vympel]

Your Phalanx Pikemen should be the backbone, if not the entirety, of your mid-game phalanx. City Barracks are easily built, and Phalanx Pikemen only take one turn to build. I suggest you completely phase out Levy Pikemen in their favour, their morale and armor is simply too low to be reliable at holding the line against legionaries. Get rid of Militia Hoplites too, they're a waste of time by that point, even Hastati will eat them up.

When the late game comes and you get your Army Barracks, it's Silver Shield Pikemen time- these bad-asses can work miracles, you only need a few.

As far as tactics goes- what everyone else said. One important addition though: mercenaries. Rhodian Slingers and Cretan Archers KICK ARSE. If you want kick ass ranged units, make sure you check the mercenary options in Crete, Rhodes, Greece, and Asia Minor. I always have a few local mercs attached to my armies, you need that region-sensitive flexibility. Thracian mercenaries are also cool. Remember to upgrade them with improved armor and weapons in your cities if you get the opportunity.

And work on getting Cataphracts- their armor is too good to be true, they can take anything, and in a flank/rear charge they always carry all before them. You'll probably finish the game before you get the more flexible Companions (I did, in my first Seleucid game), but you never know.

Scythed Chariots deserve special mention for their insane cavalry slaughtering ability. If they even *touch* a horse, the horse dies. I've seen one unit of my chariots totally decimate 5 Macedonian Light Lancers just by riding through them, and took only two casualties (two chariots).

[Vympel]

Has anyone else noticed how the General's Bodyguard unit in the Custom Battles, no matter the faction, always looks different from how they look in the campaign? In the campaign they look like shit- for the Greeks/Macedonians/Seleucids, they look like Greek Cavalry for crying out loud, with their damn *hats8. In the custom battle, they're adorned with high quality armor and *actual* helmets. Same goes with Rome- they look more like Legionary Cavalry in the Custom Battle, but like bloody Roman Cavalry in the Campaign. The same applies to Pontus- Cappadocian Cavalry in the Custom Battle, but Pontic Heavy in the Campaign. It's *annoying*.

[Captain Cyran]

Is it just me, or do they time the Marius reform to as close to the worst moment as possible? I'm playing as the Scipii, just took a territory in Asia Minor, was halfway through building a new army. Had just finished building two new armies not more than 4 or 5 rounds previous. Surprise! Reforms come in.

Bastards...

[Pablo Sanchez]

Is it just me, or do they time the Marius reform to as close to the worst moment as possible? I'm playing as the Scipii, just took a territory in Asia Minor, was halfway through building a new army. Had just finished building two new armies not more than 4 or 5 rounds previous. Surprise! Reforms come in.

Bastards...

Yeah, I didn't like the way they implemented that. You have all these "obsolete" units that can never be reinforced, and you have to build all the new armies from scratch. The ideal solution would have been that all your units just converted to their nearest post-Marian equivalent, or at least including an option to manually convert units by retraining them.

[frigidmagi]

Yeah, I didn't like the way they implemented that. You have all these "obsolete" units that can never be reinforced, and you have to build all the new armies from scratch. The ideal solution would have been that all your units just converted to their nearest post-Marian equivalent, or at least including an option to manually convert units by retraining them.

I would kill for that. I really would. Has it was, I was gathering obsolete units for use has cannon fodder and rebel suppression until I could replace them. It's depression when you got units down to about 15 men and can't replace them.

[Darth Wong]

It's not random; the Marian reforms come about when the first city hits the 24000 population mark and becomes a huge city. If you want to make them happen sooner, make a point of removing the governors from all of your cities except for your capital just before conquering a settlement, and then selecting "enslave" when asked what to do with the conquered population. Enslavement divides the conquered population among your governed settlements, so this technique would result in your capital city growing really quickly (although this kind of rapid growth can have negative side-effects, as you will have trouble building structures quickly enough to keep up with the population growth and civil unrest will become a problem, which is why I suggested using your capital city; it is the least likely to revolt).

Anyway, what I usually do when the Marian reforms occur is to simply combine weakened units (you do that by dragging one unit card on top of another unit card of the same type on the campaign map). I usually empty obsolete unit types out of city garrisons as I replace them with new ones, and merge those obsoleted units together to make fresh field armies. As these armies fight their numbers will dwindle from attrition, but you can just keep topping up your units by merging them together. This will reduce the total number of units over time, but you can just reinforce the army periodically with post-Marius units as the older units gradually expire.

While I would like to see an option for retraining older units to post-Marius units, it's not really much of an imposition, and as a bonus, you tend to end up with very well-experienced, battle-hardened old-unit veterans if you use this method. They might eventually expire in battle, but they will have exacted more than their worth in blood from the enemy by the time that happens. I find that I often conquer a lot of territory with armies composed of veteran old-style units, repeatedly merged in order to make up for battlefield losses. I often still have some of these units around at end-game.

[Darth Wong]

Wow, I was just trying to play as the Seleucids and the early game is pretty tough. I tried to act like the Romans and start aggressively expanding immediately, and found that my territories are too scattered, my border too long, my enemies too numerous for that. It takes considerable effort just to hang onto the territory I have; what am I doing wrong?

[Stravo]

Wow, I was just trying to play as the Seleucids and the early game is pretty tough. I tried to act like the Romans and start aggressively expanding immediately, and found that my territories are too scattered, my border too long, my enemies too numerous for that. It takes considerable effort just to hang onto the territory I have; what am I doing wrong?

I ran into th exact same problem as you did playing as the Selucids. I tried to play in my Roman style and had my ass handed to me by a roving band of rebel archers and repulsed from a rebel city.

You need to build up your forces first, you don't start out from a position of strength but there is something you SHOULD have - lots of money. You will start accumlating lots of money. Start buying off enemies, buying roving generals and build up your pikemen. The militia spearmen are absolute SHIT. Upgrade ASAP to Levy spearmen then prepare for war with Egypt.

Plan a two prong campaign. Build your forces in the far east for an eventual sweep at the Parthians. They're tough so don't strike until you've built up a good strong force.

The key with spearmen and eastern units is numbers. With Rome your troop quality is so good you could easily take on barbarian forces twice and three times your size. In the East quantity has a quality all its own. LOTS and lots of Spearmen supported by a strong mobile cavalry force for the charge in the rear and some missile units. (You'll find you have a distinct lack of good missile units in the early part of the game and it'll hurt.)

Antioch is ready to be your troop center. It has a decent set of militray buildings already in place and just a few upgrades gives you elephants and Phalanx units.

With Egypt just survive the initial attack wave and then brutally wear them down (I used a liberal dose of bribes by my diplomats - as the Selucids you will not have money problems - bribes will be your friend against Egypt) Take Jerusalem and Damascus and Egypt will begin to fold badly.

Once you have a good pop base and upgrades you will find that you will become a titan in the East very quickly.

The Selucids are all about slow steady growth and overwhelming numbers in battle.

[Ace Pace]

Wow, I was just trying to play as the Seleucids and the early game is pretty tough. I tried to act like the Romans and start aggressively expanding immediately, and found that my territories are too scattered, my border too long, my enemies too numerous for that. It takes considerable effort just to hang onto the territory I have; what am I doing wrong?

Its an entirly differant playstyle, you don't have the kind of units that Rome has.

[Captain Cyran]

Yeah, exactly what Stravo said. You will have a shitload of money, do not be afraid to use it. I must have bribed about 15 armies that were seiging my cities. But play it like Stravo said, slow and steady at first, build up your armies then slowly expand.

After you've become the ruler of Asia minor you should be able to sweep through any opposition simply by the fact that you have enough money to either bribe them into submission or just keep throwing armies at them until they fold.

[Vympel]

Wow, I was just trying to play as the Seleucids and the early game is pretty tough. I tried to act like the Romans and start aggressively expanding immediately, and found that my territories are too scattered, my border too long, my enemies too numerous for that. It takes considerable effort just to hang onto the territory I have; what am I doing wrong?

I've got to disagree with some of the other advice in that I hardly ever bribe enemy armies. I was far too busy building units. In essence, don't waste you generals- you have three/four sure-fire geniuses at the start of the game:

Alexander- up in Asia Minor- you can take Halicarnassus easily with a few extra units from Sardis, then take Pergamum, which doens't have a prayer of getting help from the Greek Cities- this is your choice though, the Greek Cities will attack you anyway at some point.

Demetrius- this guy will be one of your two anti-Egyptian commanders

Cleitos- this boy will come of age in like turn 2 or 3, I can't recall. Either way, make him faction heir. A faction leader who's only 16-18 years old (since your original one will die very soon) will live well into the time when you're about to win the game, he'll get all sorts of bonuses, and by the time he's into his 20s he'll probably have 7-8 stars and a cool title, as long as you make him main commander against Egypt. In the two games I've played as Seleucid, he's always been very impressive to start off with. Also, transfer your faction leader's ancillaries to him before he dies, that helps too.

Arsitrarchus- hold the line against Parthian attack, slowly build up Selucia (the second capital of the Empire, historically) as a base to attack Parthia- but not until you're ready- preferably once you've knocked off Egypt. Parthia starts off with Cataphracts. Beware.

Hatra (city, not general)- you may be attacked by the Armenians at Hatra. If so, you'll just have to either relieve it while they seige it, or just let it go for a few turns- you can't be strong everywhere.

In so far as Egypt goes, I find they send large armies up to the front (Jersualem/ Damscus etc) but leave their main cities along the nile relatively vulnerable- if you smash two or three of their big armies, your general (Cleitos! ) will be clear to march straight for the cities and brush aside the piddly troops left.

Pontus isn't much of a threat- crush them at your leisure. Same goes for Armenia, but beware, Armenia starts off with Cataphracts too (as with Parthia, though, they can't build them immediately).

After that's out of the way, start acting like Rome!

[Vympel]

A few words on taking out Parthia

- lots of Greek Cavalry to chase off horse archers
- lots of archers to kill horse archers
- a unit of scythed chariots to both chase/kill horse archers

You won't be able to knock Parthia right out of the game unless you build a ship and go across the Caspian to Tribus Sakae, their last province- unless you march through Scythian territory- which sucks, since their roads are shit and its a very long march. Beware that they may build up an army there and send it across on a boat to take you in the arse long after you've thought that Asia Minor is entirely your dominion (which is what happened to me in my first game, while I was rampaging through Italy)

Apart from the bribery (why spend money when you can get generals stars from crushing everyone?) I agree with what everyone's said. Levy Pikmen, lots of em, and work towards Phalanx Pikemen.

One city I did bribe away from Egypt was Salamis (Cyprus). Easily done, relatively cheap.

[Ace Pace]

Advice on taking cities?

So far, i'm not dealing with stone stuff (yes, i'm playing very slowly), but even by attacking multiple points, my units still get killed at the breaking points, untill they win by sheer flanking power.

I prefer not to lose around 1\5 of an elite army attacking a piddly settlement, i've tried going 3 breaking points, even 5, no good.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I prefer not to lose around 1\5 of an elite army attacking a piddly settlement, i've tried going 3 breaking points, even 5, no good.

City assaults are brutal and you will typical lose a good fraction of your force. If you don't like it you can siege them.

[Ace Pace]

I prefer not to lose around 1\5 of an elite army attacking a piddly settlement, i've tried going 3 breaking points, even 5, no good.

City assaults are brutal and you will typical lose a good fraction of your force. If you don't like it you can siege them.

I siege them mostly, but I was wondering if there is any better ways to attack.

Also, what is it with SCREWY pathfinding inside the city?!