Something Awful go to No Mutants Allowed(and other places)

[Darth Raptor]

Final Fantasy fancunts don't hold a candle to the Official Fallout Fandom. Seriously, never in my life have I encountered a franchise with more deranged, elitist, smacktarded fans than Fallout. It's baffling. Your average FFVII fanboy is just an illiterate thirteen-year-old. Whereas Fallout Fans are scary fucking insane. As in keep your kids away from them crazy.

[Xisiqomelir]

Your average FFVII fanboy is just an illiterate thirteen-year-old.

That's just a hair too young, surely.

[Jaepheth]

If I ran Bethesda, I'd do a joke in the form of the following:

When you first run Fallout 3, it's a game with an 8-bit Barney the dinosaur running around mars picking daisies. Once you've picked enough of the flowers, a pirate armed with an accordion challenges you to a game of 9 men's morris.

Upon running the game a second time you get to play the real fallout 3, but seeing the Fallout label put on such a non-fallout related game should cause the rabid idiots' heads to implode.

[RazorOutlaw]

Beth should do a Final Fantasy game next.

To be honest, I'd like to see what they could do. I thought Oblivion and Morrowind were pretty epic near the end, probably as close to a JRPG as I've ever gotten with a Western RPG.

[Vendetta]

Well, with BioWare doing a Sonic RPG, anything is officially now possible.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Beth should do a Final Fantasy game next.

To be honest, I'd like to see what they could do. I thought Oblivion and Morrowind were pretty epic near the end, probably as close to a JRPG as I've ever gotten with a Western RPG.

You've never played any of the Bioware, Black Isle or Obsidian games? Those tend to amp up quite strongly towards the end, maybe not on the "The planet will be destroyed by the androgynous troubled man/girl!" level, but the presentation,lead-up, story-telling and sense of stakes is very epic.

A few examples: BG-2:TOB. You start in a city under seige by an army of Fire-giants (With meteors exploding on the streets), the mid-game has you fighting a lair full of dragons (including a Baal-spawn dragon) and the end-game has you defeating a God and attaining divinity.

Another? Perhaps Neverwinter Nights where you end the game fighting through a gargantuan army and into the world-stone of the oldest of the 4 Ancient races of Faerun, going through their slaves taken from a thousand worlds until you reach the core of the Stone.

NWN2? The Arch-warlock inside his demi-plane with chained Balrogs, Pit-fiends & other beasties is mid-game. Near finale is burning down the seige towers dumping armies of undead on the walls, to the background of a million skeletons,Zombies, Shadows, Wraiths, Vampires etc' approaching your castle. Then you get to fight the superbly built up Shadow magi and the King of Shadows himself, inside the corrupted ruins of Illifarn as your companions are snatched away, one by one.

Maybe Kotor-2, with it's Darth Nihilus (The life-eater), the Hordes of the Sith Academy, The Ravager, the system spanning battles etc'.
Perhaps Jade empire, where killing the God-emperor, and his breaking of the Wheel of Ages is just the mid-point, or your holding a fort against the entire Imperial army. (Giant, house sized Jade golems and all), culminating in a final hand-to-hand duel with The new Emperor.

[Uraniun235]

Uh, DEATH, I don't think it was "I'd like to see what can do with RPGs in general", but more "I'd like to see what they could do with Final Fantasy".

[RazorOutlaw]

You've never played any of the Bioware, Black Isle or Obsidian games?

Of the five you've mentioned I only beat Neverwinter Nights and I found the whole story to be forgettable, even to the point where I hardly recall what I was doing beyond killing. I suppose I should clarify that Bethseda created a certain quality about the ending for it's games strictly through presentation, whether that be Dagoth'Urs mocking as you dueled around his giant warmachine or Mehrune's Dagon as he tore the Imperial City apart right before you.

I can't dispute that Bioware, BI, or Obsidian do not create epic games. They're very good at the build up and general sense of urgency. I think it was purely the fact that Bethseda had you in first person mode by yourself and without any party members, that reminded me of JRPGs. I realize that doesn't make a bit of sense given that the FF games all had party members in the same way the Western RPGs do, but somehow Bethseda just pulled it off for me.

[Academia Nut]

Yeah, the original NWN campaign was pretty meh, but holy fuck is the Hordes of the Underdark expansion epic. You start by descending into a dungeon built by an insane mage with the express purpose of killing shit, battling monsters and invading dark elves, before getting thrown into the Underdark, the most hostile environment on the planet, and leading the defence of a fortress against wave after wave of enemies assaulting your walls, enemies capable of summoning demons and devils behind your lines.

And that's just the first two acts of three. In the third you get thrown into Hell and must hack, slash, and blast your way back out so that you can kick the fucking shit out of Mephistopholes, the second highest ranking being in Hell and a creature that gets about as close to being a god without actually being one. The stakes are nothing less than the continued existence of the planet.

That's fucking epic.

(Although amusingly enough I beat the game on my first run-through because Meph rolled a 1)

But back on topic, from what I have seen of F3 so far, it is going to be awesome. Fuck you fanboys, fuck you. I've played through F1 and F2 multiple times, and the whole point of the games is to be awesome. Miniguns, rocket launchers, energy weapons, power armour, super mutants... it's all silly, but awesome nonetheless. Mini-nuke catapults? Exploding cars? Fuck you and your whining, I want em, and I want Fallout in glorious 3D, none of this sprite crap.

[Connor MacLeod]

Misrepresentation is such a wonderful thing.
It makes me sad that what was once my favorite forum for logical debates has reverted into Trekkie style lies and me-tooing. To rabidly protect Bethesda of all companies.

Fuck you, asshole, for your unwarranted blanket generalizations of the forum. What's next, Mike Wong taking bribes from Bethesda to suppress the truth about Fallout 3?

As for the games, never played Fallout 1 or 2, ,but I'm tempted to do so since I've been on a "nostaligic" kick. Just as soon as I can track it down...

[Ariphaos]

My opinion of the entire NWN franchise so far is that it blows entirely. What did they do, fire the Baldur's Gate writers?

[Brain_Caster]

When it comes to producing the feel of "epic" I have yet to play an RPG that comes close to Baldur's Gate 2 + TOB. And the whole story of the BG series is in essence a personal one (in the end it's about your Player Character and his companions, NOT about the fate of the world, though the world certainly gets to feel that something big is happening).


Then there's Planescape Torment. A game that was entirely about your characters own, personal story, and it felt much more epic than any "rescue the world" story ever could. Immersion is the key, not making the stakes as high as possible.

[Zixinus]

And we all know Oblivion was not a real RPG.

Then so isn't Morrowind, or any Elder Scrolls game, or any game similar to Elder Scrolls (including that roaring number of 2.5D first person games that was somewhat popular in the DOS era). Oblivion had more FPS elements then RPG elements, sometimes for the worse in my opinion, but it was still a RPG.

Yes, I know you are sarcastic, but what idiot moron thought that up?

As for Fallout, I've played the first and second. Never really got interested. Third one looks very interesting on the other hand. Especially with the knowledge that there will actually be some action, not just point & click boredom.

[Vendetta]

My opinion of the entire NWN franchise so far is that it blows entirely. What did they do, fire the Baldur's Gate writers?

The point of NWN was always it's contstruction set and DM tools. The single player game was just to give you something to do whilst people wrote modules for it.

[PeZook]

As for Fallout, I've played the first and second. Never really got interested. Third one looks very interesting on the other hand. Especially with the knowledge that there will actually be some action, not just point & click boredom.

Their complaints about the combat system are what really gets me the most ; They seem to want it to be the same boring clickfest like F1 and F2, where the guy with the biggest gun and most hitpoints was guaranteed to win the engagement.

There was no movement in these fights, just clickage. Granted, overdone death scenes made it interesting, but come on - why harp on this, when you get a new system, where cover matters, movement is quite possible during a firefight, and you can still have your precision targeting?

If the game makes it possible for a weak but smart hero to take out an armored behemoth, I'm all for it. Smarts should be rewarded, not grinding exp till you get the "Sniper" perk.

[Academia Nut]

Huh... I know that I did use cover when I could, at least when it was available, although I suppose that could be because I hate grinding so I was often outgunned.

Of course, manuevering has its own rewards, like getting 4 super mutants in a bottleneck and then firing a rocket at them Limbs everywhere

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

My opinion of the entire NWN franchise so far is that it blows entirely. What did they do, fire the Baldur's Gate writers?

As Vendetta mentioned, it is so, so much more than your average CRPG. Even if you're not into the online roleplaying (I mean real RP, i.e., playing your character entirely within the boundaries of suspension of disbelief), there's still so much you can do with NWN, and NWN2 to a lesser extent.

[Stark]

Yeah, I've heard NWN2 is pretty disappointing in that regard. I also don't see the rigid link between 'high stakes' and 'epic': if the story is forgettable nonsense, it doesn't matter how many trillion universes are at stake and things can 'feel' epic at a very personal level. NWN1&2 basic campaigns were bland as all shit - probably intentionally. KoTORs seemed better in that regard.

Isn't that ironic? Just by talking about OTHER CRPGS, we've made a list of post-Fallout games that have moved with the times. Would KoTOR have been the same if it was sprite-based isometric? No, it would've been BETTER.



I hear Fallout is the last bastion of CRPGs, after all. With regard to the hilarious 'Oblivion isn't an RPG' claim, I've heard many people describe STALKER as an RPG, using logic like 'you have quests and inventory thus it's an RPG'. Clearly the definition can grow and shrink on demand.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Did you actually play NWN2? The single player campaign is probably the best RPG since BG2. The only NWN game to ever have a shitty included campaign was the original. Both expansions and the sequel rocked the house. And I can barely even remember the last time it was possible to play through a single-player campaign with up to 4 players in an RPG outside of the NWN games. Yes, the NWN games truly come into their own with user modules, but only the original actually needed the modules to be worth the purchase price.

As for whether or not STALKER is an RPG, it just depends on whether a person feels that RPG status is conferred by dialogue and immersion or by stats. I lean toward the former, and don't really consider Diablo or Dungeon Siege (for instance) to be RPG's, while you could make a good case that STALKER is one by those criteria. It's all arbitrary in the end, though. Rose by any other name and all that.

[Stark]

Yah I've played both NWN 1 & 2. How long to you have to play NWN2 before it gets good? I could barely force myself to play through the tutorial in 2 (forced tutorials = fail btw) and the plot didn't grab me. After the pile of shit that was the NWN campaign I wasn't interested in wasting another week finding out how much it sucked. Then again, are you supposed to play them coop-multi through the campaign? I was soloing, so perhaps it drags more than it would otherwise.

My point re definition was that if you can define Oblivion as NOT having RPG characteristics, neither does Fallout. Sure, there are many different ways of defining it, but Oblivion has every RP-like attribute I can think of except perhaps a text-entry line. It's just elitism, with goalpost moving etc.

EDIT - I just realised my 'I heard NWN was crap for mods' statement may have suggested I hadn't played it. That's not the case: I just know some people heavily into NWN modding who tell me NWN2 isn't as flexible or useful as a toolset.

[Academia Nut]

Stark, you do know that in NWN2 you can skip the tutorial, right? You do get a few things that are a bit useful early on if you go the tutorial, but its easily skipped.

And while I never managed to finish the game (a bug that caused my NPCs to stop doing anything, including following, unless they were explicitly ordered to do so that showed up in the very end of the game), the high point for me was definitely the defence of the fortress. That was just fucking awesome. The trial was really good too, especially if you put plenty of points into social skills.

As for where it starts getting good... hmm... probably after you make it into Neverwinter is when it starts to pick up. I readily admit that the beginning can be rather slow.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Yah I've played both NWN 1 & 2. How long to you have to play NWN2 before it gets good? I could barely force myself to play through the tutorial in 2 (forced tutorials = fail btw) and the plot didn't grab me. After the pile of shit that was the NWN campaign I wasn't interested in wasting another week finding out how much it sucked. Then again, are you supposed to play them coop-multi through the campaign? I was soloing, so perhaps it drags more than it would otherwise.

The beginning in West Harbor does kinda suck, it's true. And it takes a while before you finally make it to Neverwinter (although the getting there is pretty entertaining). After that is when it really picks up. For me it started getting engaging right after West Harbor.

My point re definition was that if you can define Oblivion as NOT having RPG characteristics, neither does Fallout. Sure, there are many different ways of defining it, but Oblivion has every RP-like attribute I can think of except perhaps a text-entry line. It's just elitism, with goalpost moving etc.

Agreed.

EDIT - I just realised my 'I heard NWN was crap for mods' statement may have suggested I hadn't played it. That's not the case: I just know some people heavily into NWN modding who tell me NWN2 isn't as flexible or useful as a toolset.

I've also heard that NWN2's toolset is harder to work with. But even if the module and PW community isn't anything like the original, it will still be worth the price of admission to play the OC. Anyway, there are several top flight modules out now and more on the way, so it looks like modders are soldiering on.

EDIT: By the way, if you do give NWN2 another try, make lots of different save slots, not just one. The game is unfortunately quite buggy and savegames have a tendency to get corrupted. They might have fixed a lot of the worse bugs by now, but it's still good to have multiple save slots in case your save gets hosed.

[Stark]

Stark, you do know that in NWN2 you can skip the tutorial, right? You do get a few things that are a bit useful early on if you go the tutorial, but its easily skipped.

WHAT. There better not have been a big 'skip tutorial y/n' option that I clicked past, then I'd look REALLY stupid.

And I think my tastes in RPG stories are just different to most gamers. I wasn't that impressed with KoTOR, I thought the Baldur's Gate series was nonsense, etc. I've never used NWN as an online RP tool (franky I don't see the point: if I want splosions I'll play an MMO and if I want RP online I'll just do that). Clearly my low tolerance for suck means I never make it to the interesting parts. Games need a 'start at level 20 and skip the low lameass level-out-of-noobness' option.

[Academia Nut]

Yup, you pretty much went past the skip tutorial button. If you open up a new game you'll note that in the tips pop up there is a big button labelled "Skip Tutorial"

[Vympel]

NWN2 is actually engaging past a certain point? Damn - I've had it on my system for months and have been ignoring it. I better give it a go.