Games Workshop's Latest Price Insanity

[Norade]

I'm done with buying any 40k products, I have enough models to proxy what I want and simple cardboard stand ins work for the tanks we don't have enough of. When I'll spend the same amount on just rhinos for a decent army as I would spend for an entire army in another system it becomes pretty easy to say fuck 40k and never look back. At least MTG can be player properly for free online so that's one expensive hobby that doesn't need to be. Actually, I might just sell all my physical cards and play entirely online and make back at least some of what I've spent.

[Nephtys]

Indeed. You could very well just adopt a different game system, most of which actually have more merit as GAMES, instead of being designed solely as a mechanism to try and sell giant useless piles of teeny figures.

Warmachine/Hordes is fun, and Infinity or Malifaux only require like 5-10 units. Whee, games!

[Norade]

That and while companies like WotC can actually support their system with a large number of releases per year 40k has rules which are two editions and sometimes over a decade behind and space their new rules so they can milk the most money out of the player base. Small companies like BF do a better job with rules, push out new material faster and with better balance, and are cheaper to boot.

Can anybody imagine if 40k were to be the smaller game? How many people would get into this poorly made system if it were the up and comer and say Warmahordes was on top?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I don't know. I'm just getting into Flames of War, and a comparable unit (with smaller miniatures) runs for a lot more in FoW than in 40K. I can pick up a squad of Terminators for about $50, or a unit of Panther Ausf. As for $70.

[Norade]

I don't know. I'm just getting into Flames of War, and a comparable unit (with smaller miniatures) runs for a lot more in FoW than in 40K. I can pick up a squad of Terminators for about $50, or a unit of Panther Ausf. As for $70.

1,500 point Early War Polish Tank Company cost: $355 USD before S&H.
1,500 Grey Knight Army: $585.25 USD before S&H.

A 1,500 point guard army would cost even more given that you'd need at least 4 Chimeras to this not to mention some Vendettas/Valkeries not to mention getting the bits for melta guns.

So when a full FoW army comes to roughly 60% of the cost of a lower cost 40k army I think it's fair to say that one is cheaper than the other. With other companies making plastic tanks in 1:100 scale things will get even cheaper.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Why would you "need" Chimeras or Valkyries in a 1500 Guard army? And for that matter, why are you equating arbitrary point costs in two different game systems (similar though those systems may be)? All points do is ensure some measure of game balance between two competing armies in the same system, 50 points of Space Marines has nothing to do with 50 points of 57mm anti-tank guns.

I was comparing two high-end box sets (or so I would assume, it seems like Panthers would be high-end; the pricetag certainly suggested it) which each offer one complete unit on the battlefield.

[Agent Sorchus]

Bro-Cap the thing is it is easier to understand the costs if you have a tournament level point cost to compare, since it is standardized for any individual game and about the level the game is meant to play at. 1500pnts FoW is a large scale battle, from my understanding at least, and it is just as common for a battle for to be at 1000pnts. 40k is as often played at the 2000pnt lvl, so 1500 vs 1500 is actually somewhat in favor of 40k. Either way the point isn't to compare an individual unit (since the cost of a unit compared to the percent of your army is going to be different for each game and high-end isn't going to be the same) but to compare the cost of acquiring enough of an army to actually play a game.

Of course it isn't going to be totally fair but it makes more sense than trying to compare to units outside of their armies in total.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

That assumes the sole purpose of getting into the hobby is to win tournaments, which is a rather silly idea.

While from my casual perusal of my local store's FoW selection the blister packs seemed to be roughly comparable (a couple of little metal tanks versus a couple of bigger metal dudes), this didn't seem to translate to the more substantial box sets. There's an additional problem, coming from the perspective of a more holistic hobbyist (as opposed to tournament junkie): a Warhammer box set comes with a shitload of customization options and extra bits. This does not seem to be the case with comparative FoW sets. And while this is understandably so (what would be the point? It's intended to be historical, after all), it does impact what you're getting for your dollar.

[Norade]

That assumes the sole purpose of getting into the hobby is to win tournaments, which is a rather silly idea.

While from my casual perusal of my local store's FoW selection the blister packs seemed to be roughly comparable (a couple of little metal tanks versus a couple of bigger metal dudes), this didn't seem to translate to the more substantial box sets. There's an additional problem, coming from the perspective of a more holistic hobbyist (as opposed to tournament junkie): a Warhammer box set comes with a shitload of customization options and extra bits. This does not seem to be the case with comparative FoW sets. And while this is understandably so (what would be the point? It's intended to be historical, after all), it does impact what you're getting for your dollar.

You're being a bit closed minded here, while nobody can convince you that tourneys or winning is everything (though I play with the assumption that playing is fun, and losing is less fun, so play a good game and win while you're at it), we can point you to the wealth of conversion, painting and modeling options that exist for FoW minis. Look at the care that is put into basing most stands for FoW and then look at the flock, or sometimes bare bases you see in most of 40k. While the larger more detailed models do offer more that you can do on an individual basis, FoW gives you more options to make each unit a dynamic self contained scene.

Not to mention that if you intend to play 40k you will spend hundreds of dollars so you might as well pick a powerful force while you're having fun modeling them.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Fair enough, I didn't mean to imply that FoW is completely devoid of artistic merit in its modelling or painting aspects. I don't think it can hold a candle to the kinds of conversions and dioramas you'd see in, say, Golden Daemon, though. Nor would I contest that winning isn't fun. Obviously the game itself is a major part of the hobby, my point was that it isn't the only facet that ought to be considered.

Ultimately, the crux of my argument is thus: Dollar for dollar, GW kits seem to get me more bang for my buck than a similar FoW kit. By extension, I think people are being a little overzealous in their criticism of GW's product. I can't say anything about Warmachine and other competitors simply because I'm not at all familiar with them, but FoW is often touted as a superior product to the GW games (rules-wise, I would tend to agree, based on my skimming of the rulebook).

Really, I think there is a lot of anti-fanboyism going on here: you know, the same sort of attitude that brings about insipid, vapid terms like "M$" and "Winblowz". The top dog is very easy to hate and complain about in favor of your particular pet underdog. Lord knows I have more than a few gripes with GW (Apart from a couple gifts, I haven't bought any 40k minis in several years now), but that does not and should not translate to "Everything GW has ever done or will do is complete shit", which seems to be the prevailing winds in this thread.

[weemadando]

I think the big difference is that FoW minis are constrained not only by scale, but by reality.

[Slacker]

Moreover, a platoon of Panthers is going to be a huge portion of any army it's going to appear in, as a percentage of its points, compared to the box of 5 Terminators. If I remember correctly, the box you're talking about contains five Panthers and is intended for late war. I'm at work, and only have handy the mid-war Eastern Front book, but as a point of comparison. In mid-war, five Panthers cost 935 points. Typically, Flames of War games run around 1500 points. Now you're not going to realistically run five Panthers unless you're specifically running the Panther company list, but you're going to probably still build a playable army for less money. Late war, Panthers get much cheaper, I believe five are going to run you somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 points, which is still a significant fraction of a 1500 point army-much more than the 200 points a box of Terminators is in a 1500 point Space Marine list.

Actually, I can totally do that comparison. 1500 point Space Marine army versus...1500 point mid-war list British Infantry Company, both assumed to be playable lists neither 'hard nuts' difficult and assuming you can convert any fiddly bits without too much difficulty things like autocannon arms and not go the Forgeworld route, buying "off the shelf" for the models and not going on Ebay. Give me a little bit.

[Kojiro]

I can't say anything about Warmachine and other competitors simply because I'm not at all familiar with them, but FoW is often touted as a superior product to the GW games (rules-wise, I would tend to agree, based on my skimming of the rulebook).

Trust me, WM is a superior product in terms of rules and production. The mindset is completely different at Privateer to GW. The current edition of 40K is what, 3 years old and has how many codexes up to date? Maybe 5 or 6 at best? Comparatively when PP shifted to Warmachine MK2 they had out the basic rules and Forces books (codexs) for all six Warmachine factions and four Hordes factions in just over a year (and have since added another whole new faction). Not only that but the language of the rules is far, far cleaner, consistent and precise to say nothing of far more balanced. And before you think PP are doing it light or something the Forces books are 144 pages, full colour and and can be picked up in hardcover for $50. Conversely the biggest GW codex, Spacemarines, happens to be mostly black and white, softcover and also 144 pages, but it'll cost you $60 here (pre recent price rise, I don't know what it is now). This from a company which is nowhere near the size of GW.

Really, I think there is a lot of anti-fanboyism going on here: you know, the same sort of attitude that brings about insipid, vapid terms like "M$" and "Winblowz". The top dog is very easy to hate and complain about in favor of your particular pet underdog. Lord knows I have more than a few gripes with GW (Apart from a couple gifts, I haven't bought any 40k minis in several years now), but that does not and should not translate to "Everything GW has ever done or will do is complete shit", which seems to be the prevailing winds in this thread.

You're right, it's easy to hate on them but it's also not entirely undeserved. For me it's the contrast between companies like Privateer, with their prize support, customer service and communication, which just make GW look terrible. GW fluff in particular will always have a special place in my nerd heart (and incidentally I loathe Privateers setting/fluff) and I would never say they were always shit, but there's a point where you gotta draw the line. I've been trying very hard to get back into 40K but it's like GW don't want me, like they're trying to be so dickish I say fuck it and walk away.

[Lord Relvenous]

I don't know. I'm just getting into Flames of War, and a comparable unit (with smaller miniatures) runs for a lot more in FoW than in 40K. I can pick up a squad of Terminators for about $50, or a unit of Panther Ausf. As for $70.

1,500 point Early War Polish Tank Company cost: $355 USD before S&H.
1,500 Grey Knight Army: $585.25 USD before S&H.

A 1,500 point guard army would cost even more given that you'd need at least 4 Chimeras to this not to mention some Vendettas/Valkeries not to mention getting the bits for melta guns.

So when a full FoW army comes to roughly 60% of the cost of a lower cost 40k army I think it's fair to say that one is cheaper than the other. With other companies making plastic tanks in 1:100 scale things will get even cheaper.

What the fuck are you buying for the Grey Knights?

Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armor- $22.25
2 Boxes of Grey Knights- $66
2 Boxes of Grey Knight Terminators- $100
Dreadknight- $63
Land Raider Crusader- $66

That gives you enough models for a 1500 point list, and it adds up to $317.25. I mean, $585? Hell with the extra 267.75, I could get 8 more fucking boxes of Grey Knights, which is at the very least 800 points, but could easily be more than 1000. So with $585 bucks, I could easily make a 2500 point list I wanted.

Way to dishonestly support your point. Guess you didn't expect anyone to actually run the numbers.

[Kojiro]

For what it's worth in AUS that list would run you $497 from the GW site.

[Norade]

I don't know. I'm just getting into Flames of War, and a comparable unit (with smaller miniatures) runs for a lot more in FoW than in 40K. I can pick up a squad of Terminators for about $50, or a unit of Panther Ausf. As for $70.

1,500 point Early War Polish Tank Company cost: $355 USD before S&H.
1,500 Grey Knight Army: $585.25 USD before S&H.

A 1,500 point guard army would cost even more given that you'd need at least 4 Chimeras to this not to mention some Vendettas/Valkeries not to mention getting the bits for melta guns.

So when a full FoW army comes to roughly 60% of the cost of a lower cost 40k army I think it's fair to say that one is cheaper than the other. With other companies making plastic tanks in 1:100 scale things will get even cheaper.

What the fuck are you buying for the Grey Knights?

Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armor- $22.25
2 Boxes of Grey Knights- $66
2 Boxes of Grey Knight Terminators- $100
Dreadknight- $63
Land Raider Crusader- $66

That gives you enough models for a 1500 point list, and it adds up to $317.25. I mean, $585? Hell with the extra 267.75, I could get 8 more fucking boxes of Grey Knights, which is at the very least 800 points, but could easily be more than 1000. So with $585 bucks, I could easily make a 2500 point list I wanted.

Way to dishonestly support your point. Guess you didn't expect anyone to actually run the numbers.

No Rhinos, your list is going to get tooled, not to mention that it isn't even close to tournament quality.

Here's a top table list for an RTT event: 2,000 point Grey Knights.

HQ
Coteaz 100

Elites
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons master crafted demon hammer 150
Rhino 40
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons master crafted demon hammer 150
Rhino 40
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons master crafted demon hammer 150
Rhino 40

Troops
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers searchlight 56
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers 55
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers 55
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers 55
3 Henchmen- meltas 42
Chimera- dozer blades 60
3 Henchmen- meltas 42
Chimera- dozer blades 60

Heavy
Dreadnaught- 2 twin linked auto cannons 135
Dreadnaught- 2 twin linked auto cannons 135
Dreadnaught- 2 twin linked auto cannons 135

2000

To buy the models for this list online from GW would cost, $900.25 USD so you can go fuck yourself Relvenous for trying to peddle a shitty list as something people could actually play in the current tournament meta.

As most FoW tournies are at 1,500 points I went for a doubles list for a FoW Grand Tournament:

“Italian Bersaglieri Battalion” prepared using “North Africa” fielded by Will Mays.

Battalion HQ 30

Combat Platoons
Bersaglieri Company
- 3 Bersaglieri Groups 320
- Passaglia Bombs 15

Bersaglieri Company
- 3 Bersaglieri Groups 320
- Passaglia Bombs 15

Bersaglieri Mortar Platoon
- 3 Mortar Sections 100

Support Platoons
Battaglione Carri 3 “Lancieri di Novara” - Light Tank Platoon 120
- 4 L6/40

TOTAL 920

My teammate (herein referred to as Rob) had -

“Panzerkompanie” prepared using “North Africa” fielded by Rob Wood.

HQ 2 Panzer III J (early) 180
- 1 upgraded to Panzer III J (late) 15
- 1 upgraded to Panzer IV F1 10

Combat Platoons
1 Zug 4 Panzer III J (early) 360
- 2 upgraded to Panzer III J (late) 30
- 2 upgraded to Panzer III L 50

2 Zug 3 Panzer III J (early) 270
- 3 upgraded to Panzer IV F2 165

TOTAL 1080

Total cost: $255.50 USD

So one high quality list costs $900 USD and another costs $255 USD? Which system do you think is cheaper to buy into?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

In my 12 years of Warhammer 40,000, I have never, ever encountered an insane cheese list like that. That looks like it was typed up with one hand on your dick.

At absolute worst, I've played games against snotty little shits with a couple of questionable, cheesed-out units, but most of the problem with matches like that is that those snotty little shits tend to just cheat and fudge dice. No one who is actually into the hobby for, y'know, fun is insane enough to buy $900 of shit just to create a flavor-of-the-month tournament army.

[Norade]

In my 12 years of Warhammer 40,000, I have never, ever encountered an insane cheese list like that. That looks like it was typed up with one hand on your dick.

At absolute worst, I've played games against snotty little shits with a couple of questionable, cheesed-out units, but most of the problem with matches like that is that those snotty little shits tend to just cheat and fudge dice. No one who is actually into the hobby for, y'know, fun is insane enough to buy $900 of shit just to create a flavor-of-the-month tournament army.

Oh, somebody bring up cheese... Not that it actually matters because I compared top end lists for both systems and one came out vastly cheaper than the other. If I look at the winners of any major 40k tournament all the lists will play at that price range, and if I look at top end lists for FoW they might run $500 for an expensive early war list. Not to mention there are a lot of 600 point FoW tournaments making the buy in even smaller.

On the rules side some people dislike 40k because they think that such a thing as Cheese actually exists which is frankly fucking moronic. If you're going to play a competitive game with a shit list go ahead, but you don't get to QQ when you get pasted by somebody who is also playing withing the rules. Just like if you bring a shit box stationwagon to a drag track and pasted by a guy who tooled the shit out of his car, sure he spent more and you might think NOS is cheating, but you still lost.

Also, neither of those are my lists, one is from a player who goes by Yermom on Dakkadakka and the other is from a poster named Wicked Willie on the FoW main forums.

[Lord Relvenous]

1,500 point Early War Polish Tank Company cost: $355 USD before S&H.
1,500 Grey Knight Army: $585.25 USD before S&H.

A 1,500 point guard army would cost even more given that you'd need at least 4 Chimeras to this not to mention some Vendettas/Valkeries not to mention getting the bits for melta guns.

So when a full FoW army comes to roughly 60% of the cost of a lower cost 40k army I think it's fair to say that one is cheaper than the other. With other companies making plastic tanks in 1:100 scale things will get even cheaper.

What the fuck are you buying for the Grey Knights?

Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armor- $22.25
2 Boxes of Grey Knights- $66
2 Boxes of Grey Knight Terminators- $100
Dreadknight- $63
Land Raider Crusader- $66

That gives you enough models for a 1500 point list, and it adds up to $317.25. I mean, $585? Hell with the extra 267.75, I could get 8 more fucking boxes of Grey Knights, which is at the very least 800 points, but could easily be more than 1000. So with $585 bucks, I could easily make a 2500 point list I wanted.

Way to dishonestly support your point. Guess you didn't expect anyone to actually run the numbers.

No Rhinos, your list is going to get tooled, not to mention that it isn't even close to tournament quality.

Here's a top table list for an RTT event: 2,000 point Grey Knights.

HQ
Coteaz 100

Elites
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons master crafted demon hammer 150
Rhino 40
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons master crafted demon hammer 150
Rhino 40
5 Purifiers- 2 psy cannons master crafted demon hammer 150
Rhino 40

Troops
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers searchlight 56
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers 55
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers 55
5 Strikes- Psy cannon master crafted demon hammer 125
Razorback- psy bolts dozers 55
3 Henchmen- meltas 42
Chimera- dozer blades 60
3 Henchmen- meltas 42
Chimera- dozer blades 60

Heavy
Dreadnaught- 2 twin linked auto cannons 135
Dreadnaught- 2 twin linked auto cannons 135
Dreadnaught- 2 twin linked auto cannons 135

2000

To buy the models for this list online from GW would cost, $900.25 USD so you can go fuck yourself Relvenous for trying to peddle a shitty list as something people could actually play in the current tournament meta.

As most FoW tournies are at 1,500 points I went for a doubles list for a FoW Grand Tournament:

“Italian Bersaglieri Battalion” prepared using “North Africa” fielded by Will Mays.

Battalion HQ 30

Combat Platoons
Bersaglieri Company
- 3 Bersaglieri Groups 320
- Passaglia Bombs 15

Bersaglieri Company
- 3 Bersaglieri Groups 320
- Passaglia Bombs 15

Bersaglieri Mortar Platoon
- 3 Mortar Sections 100

Support Platoons
Battaglione Carri 3 “Lancieri di Novara” - Light Tank Platoon 120
- 4 L6/40

TOTAL 920

My teammate (herein referred to as Rob) had -

“Panzerkompanie” prepared using “North Africa” fielded by Rob Wood.

HQ 2 Panzer III J (early) 180
- 1 upgraded to Panzer III J (late) 15
- 1 upgraded to Panzer IV F1 10

Combat Platoons
1 Zug 4 Panzer III J (early) 360
- 2 upgraded to Panzer III J (late) 30
- 2 upgraded to Panzer III L 50

2 Zug 3 Panzer III J (early) 270
- 3 upgraded to Panzer IV F2 165

TOTAL 1080

Total cost: $255.50 USD

So one high quality list costs $900 USD and another costs $255 USD? Which system do you think is cheaper to buy into?

Oh fucking lolz. Nowhere in your post or mine was it stated you or I were shooting for tournament quality. But hey, if we are, I have another $267 fucking dollars to spend till I hit your ridiculous $585 mark. That'll buy me a whole ass-load of Rhinos. Nice goal-post moving.

As for your tourney list: have you actually played that? It hilarious. I've played against it, and guess what? 5 man scoring units suck balls if they're not coming from Combat Tactics. You just dropped 23 fucking kill points in a 2000 point list. That my friend is hilarious. Half of those Kill Points are in AV 11 and 12 units! That's gonna be hard to take down! Oh my, what are my missiles going to shoot at? Oh look, a Rhino! And another! And another! I can guarantee a KP win against that list just by killing all your transports, let alone the hilarious 5 man units inside. Grey Knights are still a 3+ armor save. It aint hard to kill 5 guys.

As for my list. That gives a starting player 2 different types of ground units, a MC, a vehicle, and a Psyker to learn with. If that player wants to expand into tournaments, that list is more than capable of being augmented with a Rhino (which I forgot to add to the original list, so that's another $33 dollars! Oh no, that brings my total to $350!), and what ever else the player desires, leaving him well under your fraudulent $585. Seriously dude. Unless you wanna play a gimmicky, spammy list like the shit you posted, it's not gonna cost that much. Do you actually play competitively? Do you know what would happen to that list when it hit a SW Logan+Long Fangs? Or a Leafblower? Or any of the other competitive lists out there? It'd dissolve. So nice try.

[Lord Relvenous]

Ghetto Edit:
I suppose I could respond to the thread in general. GW is by no means a cheap hobby, and I knew that getting into it. It's not the prices of the items that has me deciding to hold off buying from GW. I instead disagree with a price raise on products of up to 30% when GW has outright said they will be saving money on resin (as well as shipping, seeing as how resin is a lighter material). It's a sign of disregard for customer satisfaction and indicative of GW's overall lack of understanding when it comes to their own customers. You can't publicly say on your own website that switching to resin is saving you money and then raise prices on those resin models. That's the surest way to earn customer ill-will, and GW has no idea how to handle PR.

However, I do feel that I need to point out that Privateer Press is in no ways perfect. Their system is great, but their models are not conversion friendly at all. Their plastics are downright horrible. Also, due to how they release, a player is forced to continually buy to keep up with the meta. At least with my 40k army I can buy all the new shit when a codex is released then be caught up for my army until a new release. With Privateer Press, I have to continually add new units to stay on top of my faction.

Also, Privateer Press models really are not a good value for what your paying, especially contrasting against GW. A full unit of Stormblades (6 men, unit attachment, 3 weapon attachments) is $99. That's for 11 models, with only three poses on the regular dudes, and the same pose for all three weapon attachments. That's a lot of money. Say what you will about that unit being more valuable on the tabletop than a unit of Space Marines, but as far as real actual value, that's bad. Even if we take the new plastic units (they are plastic, yes?), a box of 10 Trenchers is $55. That box has all of 5 different poses. However, a box of Space Marines (Tactical Squad) is $37.25. Those models are all pose-able, meaning I never have to have a repeat of a guy. Also, because it comes with extra bits and pieces (for purely modelling), I can make every marine special with some piece of wargear or honor. Hell, compare the Trenchers to a box of Grey Knights. While 2 boxes of Grey Knights is going to run $66, each box comes with 118[/] pieces. That's a ridiculously packed box.

It get's even funnier when we compare a battle engine to their GW compatriots. An Arachnarok is a full $27 cheaper than a Khadoran Battle Engine, and is also larger and more detailed to boot.

So when people who criticize GW for price hold up PP as the alternative, I laugh. They're just as bad, if not worse. As for customer service? I've tried three times to get a faulty piece replaced on one of my jacks. I have had no replies to my emails and my calls have not helped. With GW, I called with a warped piece on a Rhino, and they sent me a whole new fucking kit. Customer Service is one area that I will defend GW in until I go blue in the face. No company, hobby related or no, has ever helped resolve problems as quickly and thoroughly as they.

[Norade]

Oh fucking lolz. Nowhere in your post or mine was it stated you or I were shooting for tournament quality. But hey, if we are, I have another $267 fucking dollars to spend till I hit your ridiculous $585 mark. That'll buy me a whole ass-load of Rhinos. Nice goal-post moving.

As for your tourney list: have you actually played that? It hilarious. I've played against it, and guess what? 5 man scoring units suck balls if they're not coming from Combat Tactics. You just dropped 23 fucking kill points in a 2000 point list. That my friend is hilarious. Half of those Kill Points are in AV 11 and 12 units! That's gonna be hard to take down! Oh my, what are my missiles going to shoot at? Oh look, a Rhino! And another! And another! I can guarantee a KP win against that list just by killing all your transports, let alone the hilarious 5 man units inside. Grey Knights are still a 3+ armor save. It aint hard to kill 5 guys.

As for my list. That gives a starting player 2 different types of ground units, a MC, a vehicle, and a Psyker to learn with. If that player wants to expand into tournaments, that list is more than capable of being augmented with a Rhino (which I forgot to add to the original list, so that's another $33 dollars! Oh no, that brings my total to $350!), and what ever else the player desires, leaving him well under your fraudulent $585. Seriously dude. Unless you wanna play a gimmicky, spammy list like the shit you posted, it's not gonna cost that much. Do you actually play competitively? Do you know what would happen to that list when it hit a SW Logan+Long Fangs? Or a Leafblower? Or any of the other competitive lists out there? It'd dissolve. So nice try.

The original list I posted the cost for was also tournament quality and others have posted that making a good 40k list costs money. This also isn't about the list being great or not because Missile Fangs and Leafblower will also cost a ton with nearly $300 ending up in Vends/Valks in the case of the guard. This isn't to mention the Chimera's they'll need for their vet teams. But hey, nice try posting the minimum buy in that will get shit kicked around the table and still has the issue of 5 man troop choices because GK marine boxes only have 5 models. So to follow your own advice you need to add at least another $130 for 10 more marines and 2 more rhinos. Suddenly your list costs north of $400.

EDIT: Forgot that the Termies were troops, but still that GK list lacks any of the cool toys that would draw a player to GK instead of another termie heavy list. Things like Jokero, Paldins, and Purifiers would tend to be what a new player would add to a list with likely more than one Dreadknight.

EDIT 2: Also, your shitty starting lists cost more than a 500 point more tourney quality FoW list so you still fail.

[Lord Relvenous]

First of all, it's lacking Paladins? Sure it is. Oh wait! There's 10 terminators there! That can make a unit of terminators and a unit of Paladins! Amazing.

So let's modify it so that it has all that "fun" stuff. (Seeing as how some players find a Dreadknight fun, I find that argument hilarious).

Draigo- $27 IIRC
4 boxes of Grey Knights (hey look, I can make fun Purifiers) $132
2 boxes of Terminators (a unit of terminators and Paladins? Or just all Paladins! Madness!) $100
3 Rhinos $99

So we've now increased the price to $358, but in doing so gave the player 20 Grey Knights to use as they will, 10 Terminators that could be scoring Paladins as well, and 3 Rhinos. And it's easily 1500 points. Does that meet your oh so important guidelines for fun? And they can swap 10 Grey Knights out for a Dreadknight or Crusader if they want. Amazing.

Edit: And before you crow again about how it costs more than some other system, I was never aguing relative cost. You were. I'm just pointing out how stupid your $585 mark is.

[defanatic]

Here in the deep south of OZ, that same army would be... AUD682. :/

[Norade]

First of all, it's lacking Paladins? Sure it is. Oh wait! There's 10 terminators there! That can make a unit of terminators and a unit of Paladins! Amazing.

So let's modify it so that it has all that "fun" stuff. (Seeing as how some players find a Dreadknight fun, I find that argument hilarious).

Draig- $27 IIRC
6 boxes of Grey Knights (hey look, I can make fun Purifiers) $132
2 boxes of Terminators (a unit of terminators and Paladins? Or just all Paladins! Madness!) $100
3 Rhinos $99

So we've now increased the price to $358, but in doing so gave the player 30 Grey Knights to use as they will, 10 Terminators that could be scoring Paladins as well, and 3 Rhinos. And it's easily 1500 points. Does that meet your oh so important guidelines for fun?

Wow, you still have a bad list that costs more than a top end FoW list that was running at a higher points cost. I'm also not sure where you're at, but when I ring up that list I get a much higher cost of $505.50 which is crazy for such an awful list.

Draig- $30
6 boxes of Grey Knights (hey look, I can make fun Purifiers) $39.50 each ($237 total)
2 boxes of Terminators (a unit of terminators and Paladins? Or just all Paladins! Madness!) $60 each ($120 total)
3 Rhinos $39.50 each ($118.50 total)

Where as the cost even an expensive list in other systems won't come close to that.

[Norade]

Here in the deep south of OZ, that same army would be... AUD682. :/

I'd be willing to bet that FoW would be cheaper for you then.