Master of Orion Reboot

[Lord Revan]

Intuitive vs non intuitive is a whole different axis than visible and invisible. As a rule intuitive complexity does not have to be overtly visible because the player will pick up on it easily. That's a hallmark of a lot of good adventure games. It's only when you are dealing with unintuitive complexity that you have to hold the players hand and show him his options. What is essential either way though is that the player always has feedback that tells him what effect an action had. Without that it's not complexity any more but random clicking.

My point was that if you design your visible complexity poorly you might end up with a situation where you have so much clutter on the screen that what's relevant important information gets lost and all the complexity becomes hidden and unintuitive (or worse counter-intuitive) because you couldn't tell what information was the one you were suppose to focus on and what was irrelevant.

[Purple]

Intuitive vs non intuitive is a whole different axis than visible and invisible. As a rule intuitive complexity does not have to be overtly visible because the player will pick up on it easily. That's a hallmark of a lot of good adventure games. It's only when you are dealing with unintuitive complexity that you have to hold the players hand and show him his options. What is essential either way though is that the player always has feedback that tells him what effect an action had. Without that it's not complexity any more but random clicking.

My point was that if you design your visible complexity poorly you might end up with a situation where you have so much clutter on the screen that what's relevant important information gets lost and all the complexity becomes hidden and unintuitive (or worse counter-intuitive) because you couldn't tell what information was the one you were suppose to focus on and what was irrelevant.

I get what you mean. I just feel that the crux of the failure there is not that you are overburdening the UI with nominally useful information for the player to filter but the fact that you have overburdened your game with unintuitive mechanics which require this to begin with. Good game design starts at intuitive mechanics. And a bad UI is typically a symptom of a greater problem deep down.

[wautd]

I bought the early access and even without all the content I'm enjoying it quite a lot.

One more turn

[wautd]

I bought the early access and even without all the content I'm enjoying it quite a lot.

One more turn

That said, the only difficulty level (average) is waaaaay too easy. Hopefully agressive/harder AI's and bigger customization will be implemented soon

[Borgholio]

Read some reviews on Steam. It seems like it's still in Beta in some ways. People are reporting the combat system doesn't leave much room for manual control, the AI is too easy (only building destroyer-class ships so you can wipe the floor with them once you hit cruisers), the diplomacy is not all there, the travel time through starlanes is highly variable, the colony screen is hard to navigate, and (the big one for me), a hard cap of 500 turns then game over.

The positive reviews state that the voice acting is excellent and the overall UI is quite good. Some of the sound effects appear to have been directly lifted from the original MOO. So it already sounds better than MOO 3. I'm still glad I did not pick this game up yet though. I've set my expectations too high given what happened with MOO 3. I'll wait until it's finished and see.

[Lord Revan]

some of those could be fixed (especially things like the AI) before launch if the people behind this really want to do that, I wonder what's the reason for the 500 turn hard cap though, maybe to prevent a situation where you could effectly stalemate the game previously (you had enough votes to veto anyone but yourself of galactic leader but not enough power to strongarm the elections for your).

[Ace Pace]

some of those could be fixed (especially things like the AI) before launch if the people behind this really want to do that, I wonder what's the reason for the 500 turn hard cap though, maybe to prevent a situation where you could effectly stalemate the game previously (you had enough votes to veto anyone but yourself of galactic leader but not enough power to strongarm the elections for your).

Or maybe it's part of the beta. There could be a whole host of legitimate testing reasons for the cap at this point.

A gameplay reason could be that they've found that people play more aggressively (which is more fun for most people) when feeling under a time limit.

[Lord Revan]

some of those could be fixed (especially things like the AI) before launch if the people behind this really want to do that, I wonder what's the reason for the 500 turn hard cap though, maybe to prevent a situation where you could effectly stalemate the game previously (you had enough votes to veto anyone but yourself of galactic leader but not enough power to strongarm the elections for your).

Or maybe it's part of the beta. There could be a whole host of legitimate testing reasons for the cap at this point.

A gameplay reason could be that they've found that people play more aggressively (which is more fun for most people) when feeling under a time limit.

both are valid possibilities, I just remember that stalement since once when I was playing classic MoO with Humans I got stuck at point when I couldn't defeat my opponents but at same time I was too powerful for them to take on individually.

[wautd]

500 turns isn't bad though. Last game I've played after turn 250ish, which I ended by the galactic elections victory. By then I colonized half the galaxy and researched all the techs 50isch turns ago (Psylon OP!) and I didn't fell the need to continue (I was so ahead of the other races it felt like kicking puppies with the Death Star). If the game would have been harder then sure, I'd probably needed more turns.

[Crossroads Inc.]

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!!!

So as an update, I wish to say a few words about the game. But also about the reception thus far.
To be blunt, the majority of reviews are quite negative and very critical. Which is a damned shame as I think the majority of these people are missing what this game is all about...

The bulk of the negative comments being directed at it typically fall into one or two complaints.
Either its "Too easy / too simple"
or its "Not new enough / too predictable"

Now of course the reviews go into much MUCH greater detail. I mean dear god, some of them go on in EXCRUCIATING Detail for pages about how crappy they think the game is. And of course, how totally the game fails to be as super duper awesome and mega ground breaking as the original!

(sighs)

Look, for those on the fence about getting it, just ask. DO you want a game for fun? Or are you looking for some diabolically difficult Chess grand master strategy game? Because it certainly feels like that is what some of these people are looking for.

I have to say a lot of these complaints I feel miss the key point of the new game, which is it's NEW. It ius taking the concept, the essence of the original games, and basically repackaging it for a NEW audience! I get the feeling most of those angry at the game are folks who played the originally endlessly, and have some sort of idealized memory of it that can never be recaptured.

You want Ground breaking new and super difficult game play? Go play MoO3, yeah, see what THAT did for the franchise.
Let us not forget, this game is literally being made by the crew who created the very first MoO.
When I read people who complain about it missing the "vision" of the original, I want to grab them and scream "It's made by the same people you idiot!"

Is the game simple?
Yes
Is it Fun?
YES!
Now go play it and help support the makers so they make many many more sequels!

[U.P. Cinnabar]

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!!!

So as an update, I wish to say a few words about the game. But also about the reception thus far.
To be blunt, the majority of reviews are quite negative and very critical. Which is a damned shame as I think the majority of these people are missing what this game is all about...

The bulk of the negative comments being directed at it typically fall into one or two complaints.
Either its "Too easy / too simple"
or its "Not new enough / too predictable"

Now of course the reviews go into much MUCH greater detail. I mean dear god, some of them go on in EXCRUCIATING Detail for pages about how crappy they think the game is. And of course, how totally the game fails to be as super duper awesome and mega ground breaking as the original!

(sighs)

Look, for those on the fence about getting it, just ask. DO you want a game for fun? Or are you looking for some diabolically difficult Chess grand master strategy game? Because it certainly feels like that is what some of these people are looking for.

I have to say a lot of these complaints I feel miss the key point of the new game, which is it's NEW. It ius taking the concept, the essence of the original games, and basically repackaging it for a NEW audience! I get the feeling most of those angry at the game are folks who played the originally endlessly, and have some sort of idealized memory of it that can never be recaptured.

You want Ground breaking new and super difficult game play? Go play MoO3, yeah, see what THAT did for the franchise.
Let us not forget, this game is literally being made by the crew who created the very first MoO.
When I read people who complain about it missing the "vision" of the original, I want to grab them and scream "It's made by the same people you idiot!"

Is the game simple?
Yes
Is it Fun?
YES!
Now go play it and help support the makers so they make many many more sequels!

Personally, I just want a game where you can build starships and blow shit up, andnot have to mess with the fiddly bits like mining resources and building factories. What can I say, I'm a simple kind of guy.

That being said, MoO2 came closest to that idea, and then MoO3 shit down its predecessors' throats with an overcomplicated, utterly un-fun experience. Now, it looks like, from the YT playthroughs, that the re-boot has captured the spirit of Master Of Orion II, and merely updated it with better graphics.

Now, if it plays only half as well as MoO2, that will still be a step up from the third game, and I will be happy.

(especially if I get to play with the Stellar Converter. The un-nerfed one from the second game, not its shitty little brother from MoO3)

[Borgholio]

(especially if I get to play with the Stellar Converter. The un-nerfed one from the second game, not its shitty little brother from MoO3)

I miss the Stellar Converter from MOO 1. Get enough ships armed with that thing, you could one-shot a planet Death Star-style.

[Lord Revan]

I'm pretty sure that's MoO2, I can't remember there ever having been a way to destroy (opposed to depopulating) planets in MoO1

[Borgholio]

Moo 1 let you destroy the colony completely without having to do a separate orbital bombardment due to the insanely high damage. I think it might have turned the planet into an irradiated hulk that needed extensive terraforming...but it's been a long time since I played Moo1 so I might be mistaken. I think in Moo2 you could actually shatter the entire world into an asteroid field. In either case, the Stellar Converter was a beast of a weapon.

[Borgholio]

Update - MOO 4 has been officially released. Reviews have been positive so far, so I picked up a copy on sale at Steam (bundled with copies of MOO 1, 2, and 3) for $30. I've been playing MOO 4 for 10 hours straight...I'm going to go to bed and sleep until noon now.

Let's just say that MOO 4 is good. Very good. It's not perfect...it does have it's flaws, a few glitches here and there, and there are certainly ways it can be improved. But it definitely beats the hell out of MOO 3, and it actually captures the feel of MOO 1 and 2 while still playing like a modern game. The graphics are great, the AI is decent, and the voice acting is superb. So yeah...the MOO series has been reborn for me. I'm hooked again.

[Lord Revan]

I think the main problem with MoO3 was that the developers didn't know their audience, MoO1 and MoO2 had been campy in good "lets have fun" way, while MoO3 tried to be "serious" scifi so the tone alienated the MoO series fans and the reputation of the previous games of being fun but campy meant that MoO name was a hinderance for getting the "super serious" crowd. Had MoO3 not had the "Master of Orion" name it probably would be a forgotten peice of late 90s/early 2000s PC scene.

[Ace Pace]

I think the main problem with MoO3 was that the developers didn't know their audience, MoO1 and MoO2 had been campy in good "lets have fun" way, while MoO3 tried to be "serious" scifi so the tone alienated the MoO series fans and the reputation of the previous games of being fun but campy meant that MoO name was a hinderance for getting the "super serious" crowd. Had MoO3 not had the "Master of Orion" name it probably would be a forgotten peice of late 90s/early 2000s PC scene.

I'm pretty sure the atmosphere was not the reason it tanked but more the agonizing gameplay...

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Agonizing is one word for it. Shitty would be another.

Only redeeming thing about the entire game was the ship design system. Now, if they'd kept that, the basic mechanics from MoO 2, and improved the graphics(except the cutscene for Stellar Converter deployment, they could've just retained the one from the second game), they would've had a winner.

[Borgholio]

Yeah the ship design in Moo 4 is simplified, it only gives you room for 5 different ship classes. But I've found that's more than enough. They limit the number of ships you have so you can't get massive Krall-sized hordes of a million ships running around. A large fleet can be considered to be a couple dozen ships, but each ship size is an order of magnitude more powerful than the last. For instance, I killed the Guardian with three Titan-class ships. A single titan has the firepower of 3 or 4 battleships. A Doom Star has the firepower of 3 or 4 titans. So you get the picture. With the limited number of ships you can field, a single doom star can take out an entire enemy fleet if they are anything less than all battleship-class or higher.

[Gerald Tarrant]

Only redeeming thing about the entire game was the ship design system. Now, if they'd kept that, the basic mechanics from MoO 2, and improved the graphics(except the cutscene for Stellar Converter deployment, they could've just retained the one from the second game), they would've had a winner.

MOO 3 had a couple of other ideas that I kind of liked, that sort of vanished in the morass of awfulness. You could build "system ships" with no FTL that basically packed more into the hull because they didn't need to move. It might not be hugely popular, but I also thought the FTL route thing was a little more interesting than the wide open borders you had in MOO 2 and 1; if it had been done right it might feel like a hybridization of MOO and Space Empires. Sadly, there was just so much wrong with that game that any good ideas are kind of swallowed up by the mass of awful.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Yeah the ship design in Moo 4 is simplified, it only gives you room for 5 different ship classes. But I've found that's more than enough. They limit the number of ships you have so you can't get massive Krall-sized hordes of a million ships running around. A large fleet can be considered to be a couple dozen ships, but each ship size is an order of magnitude more powerful than the last. For instance, I killed the Guardian with three Titan-class ships. A single titan has the firepower of 3 or 4 battleships. A Doom Star has the firepower of 3 or 4 titans. So you get the picture. With the limited number of ships you can field, a single doom star can take out an entire enemy fleet if they are anything less than all battleship-class or higher.

But, I liked having massive hordes of a million ships roaming the Galaxy. I liked even more having them all invade a system at once, and slaughter everything in it, just before I turn the Stellar Converter loose on the planet.

Please, tell me MoO4 still has the Stellar Converter. And, you have access to it at the beginning of the game?

[Simon_Jester]

I think the main problem with MoO3 was that the developers didn't know their audience, MoO1 and MoO2 had been campy in good "lets have fun" way, while MoO3 tried to be "serious" scifi so the tone alienated the MoO series fans and the reputation of the previous games of being fun but campy meant that MoO name was a hinderance for getting the "super serious" crowd. Had MoO3 not had the "Master of Orion" name it probably would be a forgotten peice of late 90s/early 2000s PC scene.

Yes. Compare and contrast with Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain. If your reply to my statement is "never heard of it," then I say to you "exactly."

Yeah the ship design in Moo 4 is simplified, it only gives you room for 5 different ship classes.

So... basically the same as in MoO 2? Or is it going clear back to MoO 1, where you have to scrap all ships of one of your five existing classes in order to make room for a new one?

But I've found that's more than enough. They limit the number of ships you have so you can't get massive Krall-sized hordes of a million ships running around. A large fleet can be considered to be a couple dozen ships, but each ship size is an order of magnitude more powerful than the last. For instance, I killed the Guardian with three Titan-class ships. A single titan has the firepower of 3 or 4 battleships. A Doom Star has the firepower of 3 or 4 titans. So you get the picture. With the limited number of ships you can field, a single doom star can take out an entire enemy fleet if they are anything less than all battleship-class or higher.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, and reminds me heavily of Master of Orion 2. It really depends on the economic balance. If a fleet of cruisers is comparably expensive in resource cost to a Doom Star, ideally said fleet of cruisers should be a credible threat. On the other hand, there are other advantages to the smaller ships (a swarm of cruisers can be subdivided to fight multiple battles at once, a lone doom star can't; a swarm of cruisers can be replaced more quickly by many worlds operating in parallel, while a lone doom star probably can't). So all else being equal, a doom star should be noticeably preferable to its 'weight' in cruisers, or there isn't much reason to bother building one in the first place.

Now, don't get me wrong, massive million-ship fleets are cool. One catch, though, is that back in MoO 1 they actually took care to balance the massive swarms of light ships by explicitly designing multitarget weapons that could chew up swarms of relatively lightly protected vessels. I don't know what the equivalent of that would be in MoO 4 because I haven't played it (and am unlikely to do so soon; I've spent money on enough games lately). Maybe they'd need area effect weapons, or a cheap but effective quick-firing gatling laser or something...

[Borgholio]

Please, tell me MoO4 still has the Stellar Converter. And, you have access to it at the beginning of the game?

Yes and no. It does exist as special weapon and you can fit it to a ship and blow up both fleets and planets while you cackle maniacally. But it's not available at the beginning of the game, it is one of the more advanced techs. I'm sure you can research it normally, but I found it by looting Orion so I never had to.

So... basically the same as in MoO 2? Or is it going clear back to MoO 1, where you have to scrap all ships of one of your five existing classes in order to make room for a new one?

You have to scrap one of the blueprintgs (ship designs) to make room for a new design but you don't have to scrap the ships themselves. So you can feel free to erase and create new blueprints and your existing fleets will remain undisturbed. Plus they brought back the option of upgrading, so if you refine or update an existing design, you can refit your existing ships to the latest tech and not have to worry about replacing the entire fleet with the new design. Oh and I just now discovered that you can have more than 5 blueprints at once...I guess it goes up as you get more tech. I am up to 8 available blueprint slots now.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, and reminds me heavily of Master of Orion 2. It really depends on the economic balance. If a fleet of cruisers is comparably expensive in resource cost to a Doom Star, ideally said fleet of cruisers should be a credible threat. On the other hand, there are other advantages to the smaller ships (a swarm of cruisers can be subdivided to fight multiple battles at once, a lone doom star can't; a swarm of cruisers can be replaced more quickly by many worlds operating in parallel, while a lone doom star probably can't). So all else being equal, a doom star should be noticeably preferable to its 'weight' in cruisers, or there isn't much reason to bother building one in the first place.

That's pretty much it. You have set number of command points with which to assign to ships. Small ships like frigates may only use one command point each, while Doom Stars use 15 (you can only have one Doom Star per race at the moment, so you'll have one Doom Star and a bunch of Titans). Each Titan is 10 command points and so forth. You get more command points by building starbases, battlestations, or star fortresses, and through various tech advancements that provide bonuses. If you go over your limit of command points, it costs a fair amount of money in upkeep. It's similar to the system in Civ 5.

The good news is that each ship tends to have the firepower and defense of 3 or 4 ships of the next tier beneath it, but will require fewer command points than 3 or 4 of those ships. So you have a positive economy of scale when using larger ships, despite the disadvantage of not being able to be in 3 or 4 places at once.

Also, one of the new features is you can park a ship at the exit of a starlane (called a warp point) and physically block it. So you can park a single large ship at the entrance to your star system and literally nothing can get past unless they destroy you first. So you really don't need a huge fleet of ships unless you have huge borders.

Now, don't get me wrong, massive million-ship fleets are cool. One catch, though, is that back in MoO 1 they actually took care to balance the massive swarms of light ships by explicitly designing multitarget weapons that could chew up swarms of relatively lightly protected vessels. I don't know what the equivalent of that would be in MoO 4 because I haven't played it (and am unlikely to do so soon; I've spent money on enough games lately). Maybe they'd need area effect weapons, or a cheap but effective quick-firing gatling laser or something...

They do have area-affect and rapid fire weapons for exactly that purpose. In fact, I fit my ships with lots of phasers instead of a few death rays or mauler devices, and the overall DPS is much higher and I can chew up smaller ships like it's nobody's business. You can fit several racks of weapons if you like, so you can fit a few big guns for the big targets, and some smaller ones to take care of the smaller ships. You can also set specific firing arcs to take up less room (so you can fit more guns but they are fixed to front, back, sides, etc...) They also have black hole generators and lightning field generators from the older games.

Oh, and point defense works properly! Holy shit it works. Fit lots of point defense weapons and they actually do a splendid job of taking out incoming missles or fighters (unlike in MOO 3 where it was dumb as bag of rocks).

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Yes and no. It does exist as special weapon and you can fit it to a ship and blow up both fleets and planets while you cackle maniacally. But it's not available at the beginning of the game, it is one of the more advanced techs. I'm sure you can research it normally, but I found it by looting Orion so I never had to.

I was actually joking(kind of)about it being available at the start of the game, and I know it takes a lot of reserach(looting Orion's good too)before you get it, unless you had MoO2 and used the cheat code that unlocked all tech.

Not that I ever did, of course.

[Borgholio]

Not that I ever did, of course.

Oh of course not. In fact, I never knew there were any cheat codes for MOO.






Huh...my Doom Star just got attacked by a squadron of flying pigs...