[STGOD] Preliminary Force Declarations & Rules

[Sea Skimmer]

I'd love to see a Roman patrol ship try to say that to a Generation Ship...

I don't expect the lost would want to risk them in combat however

[SirNitram]

I'd love to see a Roman patrol ship try to say that to a Generation Ship...

I don't expect the lost would want to risk them in combat however

No, but they do tend to wander like senile old men.

[Beowulf]

The OU would respond with asking the generation ship to leave politely, and then not so politely, and then definitely not politely, then would come the warning shot.

[Thirdfain]

Why? It's not like the Lost are invading or anything- acts of aggression against those who peacefully share the freedom of the Void would certainly assure that the fleets defending the Lost would be augmented by Floater warships.

[SirNitram]

Why? It's not like the Lost are invading or anything- acts of aggression against those who peacefully share the freedom of the Void would certainly assure that the fleets defending the Lost would be augmented by Floater warships.

Pretty much. The Lost won't intentionally piss people off with those ships, but it's not like they'll turn these slow-as-molasses ships around and add weeks to transit time because someone refuses to allow basic right of passage. And besides, it would rapidly become clear antagonizing one is generally unwise: It's impossible to tell how many ships are escorting it while under cloak, and it's doubtful most patrol ships can really do anything but look intimidating at it.

[RedImperator]

So long as the Lost stay within their assigned space lanes and keep their weapons locked down while transiting across Reynari space, and pay the nominal transit fee, the Empire would have no problem granting passage rights to any Lost mothership seeking to cross Reynari space. You will understand, however, that possessing cloaked warships within our space will be viewed as an unfriendly act. The warships will be allowed to cross if they take a Reynari observer on board, run without cloaks, and keep their weapons locked down. Otherwise, they can go around Reynari space while the motherships cross--the Reynari Empire does not attack unarmed civilians, so there's no need to send those escorts through our space to begin with.

As for the Floaters, if they find themselves, through a change in borders, within Reynari territory, they will acknowledge the right of the Matriarch to rule over them or they will leave. We will not have our domestic policy dictated to us by anyone, let alone a pack of nomads with no proper state.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Excuse me for becoming slightly angered here, but the civil war I was trying to portray was relativley peaceful, with the government allowing those that wanted out, out, and those that didn't want out could stay in.

That doesn't make sense. Do you understand how amazingly charged matters of ethnicity are? You're talking about a single Catholic, Western-European ethnic group ruling over the entire rest of the world. There will be gaffes, there will be misunderstandings, and there is no way that it is going to disintegrate without violence.

Shi Huang Di had to burn books, mass-execute opposing scholars, and institute a nation-wide informer network to rule China effectively--and that was with a single ethnic group and a population in the millions. What you're trying to depict is, simply put, impossible.

The brilliant general could fit in with any military action, but troops firing into crowds would not even be concieved of (the military recognizes its purpose is to serve the people, that's why the declare independence from the government with their teritories) by anyone in the army.

I'd like to point out that there is, literally speaking, absolutely no way in Heaven, Earth, or Hell that Monaco and Andorra could conquer and hold a world-wide empire without brutal violence. The concept of them doing this at all is difficult enough...

Secondly according to my original description and timeline the civil war took place in 2350, not 2250...

Simple error of addition, easily corrected.

[Thirdfain]

As for the Floaters, if they find themselves, through a change in borders, within Reynari territory, they will acknowledge the right of the Matriarch to rule over them or they will leave. We will not have our domestic policy dictated to us by anyone, let alone a pack of nomads with no proper state.

And we don't recognize the rule of archaic despots! Failure to observe the native right of all sentient life to freedom from despotic rule without consent will earn you the hatred of all those who accept the liberty of the void. Systems which allow their floater populace their few, simple, native rights will earn the friendship (and military support) of the great industrialised Clusters. Those who would seek to destroy those native rights will earn the enmity of all floaters, from clusters both large and small.

Besides, few nonmilitary Floater vessels mount superlightspeed drives. We can't leave.

[Sea Skimmer]

Pretty much. The Lost won't intentionally piss people off with those ships, but it's not like they'll turn these slow-as-molasses ships around and add weeks to transit time because someone refuses to allow basic right of passage. And besides, it would rapidly become clear antagonizing one is generally unwise: It's impossible to tell how many ships are escorting it while under cloak, and it's doubtful most patrol ships can really do anything but look intimidating at it.

Course, the odds of such a force actually entering another system are basically non-existent unless they intentionally do so, and I doubt anyone would really care otherwise. With only a few systems at most in any powers hand, no ones going to be claiming vast areas of deep space.

I do however have a problem with claiming a perfect cloak, those didn't exist in DS9.

[SirNitram]

Pretty much. The Lost won't intentionally piss people off with those ships, but it's not like they'll turn these slow-as-molasses ships around and add weeks to transit time because someone refuses to allow basic right of passage. And besides, it would rapidly become clear antagonizing one is generally unwise: It's impossible to tell how many ships are escorting it while under cloak, and it's doubtful most patrol ships can really do anything but look intimidating at it.

Course, the odds of such a force actually entering another system are basically non-existent unless they intentionally do so, and I doubt anyone would really care otherwise. With only a few systems at most in any powers hand, no ones going to be claiming vast areas of deep space.

I do however have a problem with claiming a perfect cloak, those didn't exist in DS9.

Not perfect, no, but it becomes very hard to accurately track how many ships are around a Generation Ship and cloaked, especially since some will be Phase-Cloaked.

[StarshipTitanic]

I'm afraid I'll be bowing out of this before it starts up so I don't cause any trouble. I don't think I should be obligated to something of this magnitude until I see how it works better.

[phongn]

Consideration of territory in the STGOD

Should entire systems be considered "land" insomuch as their owning powers can allow or deny free passage through them? Certainly, they are rather small things compared to the great space around them, but some might argue that indeed, only the planets and stations (and a certain radius around them) are actually belonging to someone.

How should we define territory and international space?

[RedImperator]

And we don't recognize the rule of archaic despots! Failure to observe the native right of all sentient life to freedom from despotic rule without consent will earn you the hatred of all those who accept the liberty of the void. Systems which allow their floater populace their few, simple, native rights will earn the friendship (and military support) of the great industrialised Clusters. Those who would seek to destroy those native rights will earn the enmity of all floaters, from clusters both large and small.

Besides, few nonmilitary Floater vessels mount superlightspeed drives. We can't leave.

We would be happy to provide transit for those unwilling to accept the few restrictions that would be placed upon them and the small taxes imposed in exchange for a place in the Imperium.

You would be wise, Floater, to cease threatening sovereign nations. We will enforce our law within our territory and we will not tolerate interference from outside powers.

[Thirdfain]

We would be happy to provide transit for those unwilling to accept the few restrictions that would be placed upon them and the small taxes imposed in exchange for a place in the Imperium.

You would be wise, Floater, to cease threatening sovereign nations. We will enforce our law within our territory and we will not tolerate interference from outside powers.

How does owning a few tiny peices of atmosphere-swabbled rock in a system give you the right to declare the huge area around it as your own? Space is free.

Should entire systems be considered "land" insomuch as their owning powers can allow or deny free passage through them? Certainly, they are rather small things compared to the great space around them, but some might argue that indeed, only the planets and stations (and a certain radius around them) are actually belonging to someone.

How should we define territory and international space?

I think we need to treat space like modern powers treat the ocean. Any planet which is owned by a single faction has a buffer zone of space around it which belongs to the planet's owners, and the rest of the system is International Territory. Obviously, emipres can place legal claims on resources in a system, but allowing the ownership of a single world in a system to convey complete control over that system is ridiculous.

Planets with mixed ownership, like Earth would probably have to make special arrangements. Anyone have any ideas?

[Beowulf]

I think the territorial limit should extend to the edge of the heliopause of a given star, which for a Sol like star, has been estimated at 110 AU.

[RedImperator]

Consideration of territory in the STGOD

Should entire systems be considered "land" insomuch as their owning powers can allow or deny free passage through them? Certainly, they are rather small things compared to the great space around them, but some might argue that indeed, only the planets and stations (and a certain radius around them) are actually belonging to someone.

How should we define territory and international space?

If a power is in control of all the inhabitable territory within a system, then I think that power can claim control of the entire star system. I was planning on claiming the four inhabited star systems and a sphere of space around the home system as Reynari space and I intend to enforce those borders. This issue could actually make for a possible flashpoint in the STGOD.

[Sea Skimmer]

Whole systems should be consider territory, with the outer limits being well beyond effective weapons range. Basically we'd end up with huge elliptical areas, very wide and long but not extended all that far above and below the orbits of a systems planets.

Earth does need special arrangements no matter what.

[Sea Skimmer]

How does owning a few tiny peices of atmosphere-swabbled rock in a system give you the right to declare the huge area around it as your own? Space is free.

Or so your form of world less scum would wish it would be. Security concerns and the range of modern weapons make anything less unacceptable.

[Thirdfain]

On second thought, you are right- all it takes is one q-ship loaded down with mass drivers or some other nasty kinetic weapon, get within a dozen AUs and you can bomb a planet into the stone age.

The original law for a nation's controlled water was one mile- the range of naval artillary at the time of the first maritime law. Let's work out a max range for strategic weapons, and use that as the controlled area around a planet.

[Beowulf]

Whole systems should be consider territory, with the outer limits being well beyond effective weapons range. Basically we'd end up with huge elliptical areas, very wide and long but not extended all that far above and below the orbits of a systems planets.

Earth does need special arrangements no matter what.

What if you're system has rather odd ball orbits for it's planets?

I think a spherical volume would be better.

[Seggybop]

Let's work out a max range for strategic weapons, and use that as the controlled area around a planet.

An FTL cruise missile could attack from any range.

[SirNitram]

On second thought, you are right- all it takes is one q-ship loaded down with mass drivers or some other nasty kinetic weapon, get within a dozen AUs and you can bomb a planet into the stone age.

The original law for a nation's controlled water was one mile- the range of naval artillary at the time of the first maritime law. Let's work out a max range for strategic weapons, and use that as the controlled area around a planet.

Then whoever controls whatever colony is present in a system(Be it traditional planetary control, a Floater asteroid home, or a Lost Orbital), controls the system and it's Heliopause, dictating law within that region. Sound fair to everyone?

[Beowulf]

On second thought, you are right- all it takes is one q-ship loaded down with mass drivers or some other nasty kinetic weapon, get within a dozen AUs and you can bomb a planet into the stone age.

The original law for a nation's controlled water was one mile- the range of naval artillary at the time of the first maritime law. Let's work out a max range for strategic weapons, and use that as the controlled area around a planet.

Then whoever controls whatever colony is present in a system(Be it traditional planetary control, a Floater asteroid home, or a Lost Orbital), controls the system and it's Heliopause, dictating law within that region. Sound fair to everyone?

What if there's more than one colony in a given system?

[Thirdfain]

An FTL cruise missile could attack from any range.

I'm pretty sure that every FTL system we are using in this STGOD either
A. Is easy to detect when in action, or
B. is restricted to operationg outside of a planet's garvity well.

Inert projectiles coming in at fractional C would be harder to detect.

[Sea Skimmer]

On second thought, you are right- all it takes is one q-ship loaded down with mass drivers or some other nasty kinetic weapon, get within a dozen AUs and you can bomb a planet into the stone age.

The original law for a nation's controlled water was one mile- the range of naval artillary at the time of the first maritime law. Let's work out a max range for strategic weapons, and use that as the controlled area around a planet.

One mile, then three miles, then seventeen miles, twenty two now IIRC, with the addition of a 200 mile economic exclusion zone with areas well beyound that often claimed.