Any one interested in an Honorverse STGOD?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-08 09:16pm

Any one mind if I include a few Andie CLACs in my OOB? I realized I didn't add any.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-08 09:20pm

Did the Andies have CLACs at the start of things?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-08 09:48pm

consequences wrote:Did the Andies have CLACs at the start of things?

They weren't mentioned explicitly but given their two new classes of pod-layers I'd agree with Honor that they probably did. After all, they beat Grayson to the punch on the BC(P) and have shown every indication of building a completely modern fleet.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-08 09:52pm

I'd say that it is reasonable for the Andies to have a few CLACs, or at least some prototypes. After all, they have shown an incredible ability to be ahead of the times in ship design.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-08 09:56pm

Fair enough. I'd put the LACs themselves ahead of the Peeps, but behind the Manties in individual capability, based on the descriptions of Andermani tech(although I could be off-base, the max Andy missile range demonstrated in WoH was pretty short).

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-08 10:02pm

consequences wrote:Fair enough. I'd put the LACs themselves ahead of the Peeps, but behind the Manties in individual capability, based on the descriptions of Andermani tech(although I could be off-base, the max Andy missile range demonstrated in WoH was pretty short).

I'd say the Andies would probably have a less capable LAC for a reason other than tech. Unlike Manticore, which thanks to the Graysies had no choice but to use fission, the Andies would probably go for fusion. They'd probably be less willing to discard the nuke taboos.

As for missles, remember those were not the full up ship of the wall variant. I've heard speculation, and tend to believe it, that the Andies sacrificed range to avoid loosing so much magazine space. Remember at longer ranges hits become unreliable due to ECM and distance and the Andies have better ECM than anyone.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-08 10:07pm

Consequences,

I do believe that the newer battle cruiser was the Nike-class. my guess is they carried the redesign of the orginal Reliant-class so far with Nike and her subsequent sister that they just called them a new class.

The Andies refer to a Nike-class Battlecruiser in WoH.

The freaking small CA class were called the Prince Consort class.

And according to Service of the Sword the newest class of CAs were the Edward Sagnamis

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-08 10:20pm

thanks, most of my Honor books are 400 miles away right now.

Missile argument accepted as well.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-08-08 10:24pm

consequences wrote:thanks, most of my Honor books are 400 miles away right now.

Missile argument accepted as well.

You're welcome. I've re-read them way too many times so I know most of this offhand. Even if I ocassionaly slip a little.

Thanks.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-08 11:42pm

I have updated my numbers to include manufacturing power and vessels under construction.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 04:43am

If were about to take into account new constructions, then I'd have another 300 constructions of ships of the Wall under way in Bolthole, as White Haven guesstimated in WoH.
And I upped my numbers for SD(P)s to 200 after re-reading parts of WoH.

In other news: The most tragic and unfortunate death of Secretary of State Giancola and parts of his family in a tragic explosion plunged the Republic into a state of heartfelt mourning. The demise of Giancola comes at an difficult time for the Republic, as it is still in deep negotiations about a peace treaty between Manticore.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 05:38am

consequences wrote:In unrelated news, a new special appropriation for the RMN has been briskly pushed through parliament, and the new delegation sent to Haven reports they are confident that an equitable means of allowing the systems we currently occupy to determine their own paths should be put into effect within the year(so please don't hurt me Dahak).

Well, did you buy that?

I won't hurt you, if I get my former territory back with the possoble exception of Trevor's Star.
Or we just have to re-enact operation Thunderbolt

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-09 12:12pm

As a peace-loving democratic nation(snicker), I suggest that each sytem be allowed to take a vote to determine the path they wish to travel, whether they want to return to Haven, afiliate with Manticore, or go independent. With Haven's permission, I would like to invite delegates from the other major powers to oversee the process along with Havenite and Manticoran personnel, to insure a scrupulously correct voting procedure. Meanwhile, preliminary preparations are already being made to withdraw our occupying forces. If Theismann's navy wishes to obtain the use of the LAC bases we have established in the occupied systems(stripped of all classified material of course), we will be willing to accept any reasonable offer.

A special delegation has been sent to the Andermani Empire, with the stated mission goal of 'finding an equitable means of reducing the loss of life and disruption in the Silesian region, and determining a method of ensuring long-term stability for the unfortunate, long-suffering citizens of that area.

Reports that the Talbott(?) clusters leadership offered the virginities of their daughters to Manticore if "You'll just let us in, please", are said to be exaggerated, but preliminary negotiations to tie them into the Manticoran Alliance appear promising.

A special apology has been sent to the Nation of Erewhon, summarised in their news media as 'We're sorry High Ridge was a dick, we won't let it happen again, so how about those trade concessions you've been wanting.'

A new naval subsidy hs been granted as a gift to Grayson, in recognition of their steadfast efforts to singlehandedly keep the security of the Alliance as a whole at a higher level for the past several years. It is hoped that their expertise at rapid large scale economic improvement will provide a substantial benefit to the citizens of the Talbott Cluster.
Privately: "Hey, Beowulf, could you spare a few squadrons to Grendelsbane? I'll see how you can be let into the carving up of Silesia. "

Meanwhile, preliminary testing of the tentatively named 'Metal Siren' class of BC(P) is underway.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 12:56pm

The Republic may consider public votes, under the afore mentioned conditions, for some planets currently under your control, especially if those planets happened to enter our domain very recently.
Yet there are systems that have been, and will always be, considered Havenite homeland and are important to the Republic. Those systems are not negotiable.
And of course we won't tolerate Manticoran occupated systems that could be used as invasion highways into our territory.
We, too, are a peace-loving nation and want to see an end to the endless blood-shedding this war has seen.

In other news, the government has intensified negotiations with Erewhon about a non-agression pact, which could lead in a prosperous trading agreement between those two great nations.

Admiral Foraker also announced the soon-to-begin keel-laying of the first ever Ctespihon class Battlecruiser. Being extremely heavy for a battlecruiser, this pocket battleship also incorporates as first non-wall ship the new pod-laying technology.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2003-08-09 01:08pm

Things to know about Mazapan:

Mazapan borders the Silesian Confederacy, opposite the Andermani Empire. Mazapan is an industrialised power with two major inhabited planets and countless space habitations and colonies. Mazapan is on one leg of the Manticore wormhole, and does a great deal of trade through said wormhole.

Mazapan has had a long history of warfare with the Silesian Confederacy, and her navy, while fairly small, is well equipped and trained.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-09 01:10pm

Trevor's Star is not open for negotiation. In addition, any system which wishes to join the Alliance will not be turned away, although we will certainly limit our presence in those systems to the minimum needed to guarantee security from independent threats.

Colonies originally established by Haven are of course internal matters to Haven, and we have already begun to withdraw from those as a show of good faith. However, we would view any effort by force or coercion to keep such colonies as choose not to return to the Havenite hold as an unfriendly act, as it could only mean a return to the modus operandi of the Legislaturalist government.

Apart from that, it would not be in either of our governments interests to leave a group of independent, nearly helpless systems in between us, where any scum with a little firepower could attempt to carve out a pirate nation to annoy us. As the former Peoples Republic of Haven originally removed their independence and means to support such, it should fall upon the Republic of Haven to provide the majority of the assistance needed to get those systems back on their feet.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 01:21pm

As we already said, we are willing to cease Trevor's Star to your control as a token of goodwill.
Of the 27 occupied systems, 6 are, as you know, not inhabitated, which we would like to see back.
3 of those occupied systems were recent additions to Haven, and we are willing to let them go.
The remaining 18 systems are decisive and integral parts of the Republic of Haven and are, as you so amply put it, an internal Haven problem. Those are not negotiable.

And we would like to discuss the re-patriation of former Havenite naval bases currently occupied, which lie between our territories.
If you consider this, we will consider helping former Havenite occupied systems between our territory to get them back on their feet.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-08-09 01:59pm

Well, its not like you left much of Seaford 9 intact anyway. Those former naval bases do represent a point of concern for us. Given the internal conflict which has plagued your Republic, it would be difficult to guarantee that a commander stationed out with a substantial fleet would not make some unsanctioned operations. However, I'm certain a satisfactory arrangement can be achieved.

If by decisive and integral you mean that your predecessors conquered them a lot earlier, you are certainly correct. By my count, 9 of those systems originally belonged to you, and are thus your problem. The remainder should be free to choose their own path.(granted I'm pulling this out of my ass, if you can provide the canon reference that says they were all original colonies, I'll retract that, it just sounds about right to me).

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 02:39pm

consequences wrote: (granted I'm pulling this out of my ass, if you can provide the canon reference that says they were all original colonies, I'll retract that, it just sounds about right to me).

(Three systems of those 18, Tahlman, Runciman, and Franconia, are not so very pro-Haven, two or three more were still thinking about it, but Pritchard was sure she could swing them. The rest sees itself either as Havenites, or ar eager to join the Republic so that they won't miss any chances that might brings.
And if all else failed, she was willing to see those few go, but as seperate one-system polities rather than under Manticoran occupation. But she wouldn't let go of them easily. Which means I will cling to them by any means necessary <g>)

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 02:42pm

consequences wrote:Well, its not like you left much of Seaford 9 intact anyway. Those former naval bases do represent a point of concern for us. Given the internal conflict which has plagued your Republic, it would be difficult to guarantee that a commander stationed out with a substantial fleet would not make some unsanctioned operations. However, I'm certain a satisfactory arrangement can be achieved.

We assure you, that despite some initial problems with former State Security elements, I have my forces under firm control, and there won't be any rogue commander.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-09 03:13pm

Question: If this is right after Haven announces the existence of the Bolthole Fleet, would any Temeraire-class be complete? When Thiesman visited Foraker to check on Bolthole's status somewhere between pages 100-150 of WoH, the book claimed the first Temeraire couldn't be completed in less than 39 months. I don't know how long Giancola sat on his information, but unless WoH takes place over at least six years, I couldn't see there being a significant numbers of Temeraire-class SD(P)s. OTOH, I figured that the Bolthole yards alone are capable of producing over 100 Sovereign of Space-class ships per year, with yard space left over for CLACs.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-09 03:18pm

Stormbringer wrote:
The Dark wrote:I'll check the Bolthole numbers, but I'm not entirely sure they lay out a concrete number (it's something like a fleet has X, and that's 2/3 of the total, which gives a close estimate but isn't concrete IMO).

Also, don't forget that while Manticore's CLACs are DNs, Haven's are SDs. Gives 'em a bit more protection.
Actually, according to tonnage, Haven's CLACs fall somewhere in between. It's possible CLACs are less dense, but more likely they're some thing of compromise between size (aka carrying capacity) and construction speed.

Do you have a page for the tonnage? I'm just curious, because WoH is such a freakin' huge book that it takes forever to look stuff up (and I don't recall a specific tonnage mentioned, though I also didn't remember Baschfish getting blown to hell and back).

consequences wrote:Its [Manticore-class] a SD according to OBS, the lightest of the type, which is why I'd figured they'd all be in mothballs under the Janacek regime, with the same principle applying to the DNs, and at least some of the Sphinx class units. I figured the Gryphons would be the least likely to get mothballed, being the most modern of the pre-pod designs.

They could have reclassified the Manticores during the war, reflecting the gradual growth in the size of units. After all, both Nike and Sultan were larger than other ships of their class, and were relatively new build at the time of their combat.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 03:21pm

The Dark wrote:Question: If this is right after Haven announces the existence of the Bolthole Fleet, would any Temeraire-class be complete? When Thiesman visited Foraker to check on Bolthole's status somewhere between pages 100-150 of WoH, the book claimed the first Temeraire couldn't be completed in less than 39 months. I don't know how long Giancola sat on his information, but unless WoH takes place over at least six years, I couldn't see there being a significant numbers of Temeraire-class SD(P)s. OTOH, I figured that the Bolthole yards alone are capable of producing over 100 Sovereign of Space-class ships per year, with yard space left over for CLACs.

At the beginning of WoH, they were only 3 or 4 months away from the laying-down of the first Temeraire. And as White Haven said, they have seen almost 200SD(P)s in the Thunderbolt fights (exclusive the SD(P)s used against Sidemore. So either there *Are* already some Temeraires in there, or it's just over 200 Sovereign of Space's. And added to it the over 300 Wall ships under construction...

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-08-09 03:26pm

The Dark wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
The Dark wrote:I'll check the Bolthole numbers, but I'm not entirely sure they lay out a concrete number (it's something like a fleet has X, and that's 2/3 of the total, which gives a close estimate but isn't concrete IMO).

Also, don't forget that while Manticore's CLACs are DNs, Haven's are SDs. Gives 'em a bit more protection.
Actually, according to tonnage, Haven's CLACs fall somewhere in between. It's possible CLACs are less dense, but more likely they're some thing of compromise between size (aka carrying capacity) and construction speed.
Do you have a page for the tonnage? I'm just curious, because WoH is such a freakin' huge book that it takes forever to look stuff up (and I don't recall a specific tonnage mentioned, though I also didn't remember Baschfish getting blown to hell and back).

Page 779, WoH.

The large green beads of three of her "superdreadnoughts" were suddenly surrounded by clouds of smaller green fireflies, dashing away from them, as they launched full groups of Cimeterre-class LACs. NavInt's sources all confirmed that the Manties had stuck with their original, basically dreadnought-sized CLACs. Given the compensator advantages which the Manticoran Alliance had enjoyed for years, it gave them the best combination of LAC capacity and acceleration. But the Republican Navy had adopted a different philosophy. Its CLACs were visualized as primarily defensive platforms, mobile bases for the LACs intended to protect the wall of battle from long-range Manty LAC strikes. As such, there was no reason to make them any faster than the superdreadnoughts they would be protecting, and all of that lovely tonnage advantage could be put into additional LAC bays.
Which meant that whereas a Manty CLAC could pack approximately one hundred and twelve LACs into its bays, a Republican Aviary-class carried well over two hundred.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-08-09 03:28pm

Dahak wrote:
The Dark wrote:Question: If this is right after Haven announces the existence of the Bolthole Fleet, would any Temeraire-class be complete? When Thiesman visited Foraker to check on Bolthole's status somewhere between pages 100-150 of WoH, the book claimed the first Temeraire couldn't be completed in less than 39 months. I don't know how long Giancola sat on his information, but unless WoH takes place over at least six years, I couldn't see there being a significant numbers of Temeraire-class SD(P)s. OTOH, I figured that the Bolthole yards alone are capable of producing over 100 Sovereign of Space-class ships per year, with yard space left over for CLACs.
At the beginning of WoH, they were only 3 or 4 months away from the laying-down of the first Temeraire. And as White Haven said, they have seen almost 200SD(P)s in the Thunderbolt fights (exclusive the SD(P)s used against Sidemore. So either there *Are* already some Temeraires in there, or it's just over 200 Sovereign of Space's. And added to it the over 300 Wall ships under construction...

I was trying to find those numbers the other day (the 200 spotted SD(P)s)

. And the line after the "3 or 4 months" was the main reason I was wondering, because it was 3 or 4 months to the first keel being laid out, and then 36 months from then to completion, or the overall 39 months I had posted. 200 SoS class isn't unreasonable either, given that they were expecting to have 60-odd of the class by the time they laid the Temeraire's keel, and were building at a pace of ~100 ships per year. So while the first Temeraire was three years away, in that amount of time they could have 360 SoS. However, given that your priorities are probably different from President Pritchart's, the focus on the more capable Temeraires is understandable.