STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-31 11:49pm

Do people want me to wait for more people to declare they will be attending, or just leap into what is shown on the tours and let people comment as if they had sent folks?

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-31 11:50pm

That sounds best. Just start it, it's assumed anyone who wants to coment sent an observer.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-31 11:51pm

SirNitram wrote:Do people want me to wait for more people to declare they will be attending, or just leap into what is shown on the tours and let people comment as if they had sent folks?

Which ever. I'll naturally be sending people.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-08-31 11:53pm

I want a tour!

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-31 11:53pm

Thirdfain wrote:
Wait, Camaro? When was this? As I recall, the Alliance largely carried that naval battle and the Monacorans were landing troops. When did you get the planet?
Maybe you should read up. I was the one who attacked Camaro. It was my men and women who died conquering it, Monacora arrived in the endgame. I destroyed the Krynori defense fleet there- you dueled with the massed Krynori navy there hours after I had already begun. Recall, I was the one who launched the war against the Krynor- you guys just absorbed the hits for me. Thanks!

Remind me to never, ever offer you air support again.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-31 11:56pm

Remind me to never, ever offer you air support again.

We are at war with Eurasia. We've ALWAYS been at war with Eurasia. The Eurasians were NEVER our allies.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-08-31 11:59pm

Actually, calm down. Sure, I reaped the rewards, but I paid a price in lives for Sparta, Ja'Del, and Camaro, sparing you the cost. A couple of escorts lost to the Krynori fleet doesn't even approach the numbers I lost blitzing Camaro and opening the shields for the Monacorans on Sparta.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 12:02am

*Chuckle* Who's not calm? You always seem to think I'm pissed off when I'm not.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 12:03am

Pablo Sanchez wrote:I want a tour!

'And this is where we ceremonially stake the undead and feast on their blood, gaining supernatural powers.' -Etern Diplomat.

'Wait, WHAT?!' - Hapless, useless vampire.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 01:09am

Okay, Bugsby? Just what are you trying to prove? The cases of the Etern colonies and the Krell protectorates are not comparable in any way.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-01 01:20am

Uh, they really are. Read up on my OOB. The Client Worlds and the Combine are two entirely separate entities. They are tied together because a) the Combine protects the Client Worlds, and b) the Client Worlds have adapteda good portion of their industry towards aiding the Combine, since the Combine is the easiest and best (and richest) source of trade in the area.

In short, the Combine is around to help the Client Worlds, and is paid handsomly to do so. If you want to hurt the Combine, the best way to do it is to try to sever the faith that the Client Worlds have in the Combine. This would hurt me a LOT. But I have a pretty good hold, and no one has tried, so its a moot point.

Now what Nitram is trying to do is go and protect these worlds from others. Only they aren't even paying him. And seeing as how many of these worlds are highly primitive, he is spending a lot to get minimal gain. That is really the only difference I see.

What I am offering is my services and knowledge in how to keep a protecting body from being snared in the culture of the planets it is protecting, and vice versa. So while some details are the same, they are pretty analagous cases. The only two differences are a) tech level, and b) payment(?)

That's what I'm trying to prove.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 01:23am

Actually, you're both off. As the Etern have been saying over and over, these folks are full members or will be when this is done. This is not colonizing, nor protectorating. We are simply admitting them as equals and giving them what they need to be safe from self-destruction.

A perfect solution? Nope. But the Etern fear destruction when helpless on a very deep level, and the Nashtar idea of 'Oh, it'll all be fine' is pretty ridiculous in a universe where the Kyronri were.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 01:25am

There's one other crucial difference. Did the Combine intimidate its clients into hiring them? Also, besides the altruistic viewpoint, do you really think any of us wants to see any one of us double his territory in one fell swoop while spending no effort like this? Granted, in the short term it will seriously overstretch his 2/3rds strength navy, but in the long term he can industrialize those worlds, as he has said he has every intention of doing, and BAM, we've got a bigass hegemony on our doorstep. No thanks.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 01:25am

Yet our cultures managed to survivie without outside help didn't they?

I know the history of the UP would be alot different if outside forces had acted.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 01:27am

SirNitram wrote:A perfect solution? Nope. But the Etern fear destruction when helpless on a very deep level, and the Nashtar idea of 'Oh, it'll all be fine' is pretty ridiculous in a universe where the Kyronri were.

It's also a universe where the Krynor were destroyed for their actions.

Be that as it may, it's 12:30 in the morning here, and I have class tomorrow. Fun as this IC discussion is, it'll have to wait. Good night.

Edit: Nitram, you opened with quite the strawman there.

Oh well. Sleeeeeeeep...

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 01:29am

frigidmagi wrote:Yet our cultures managed to survivie without outside help didn't they?

Yep. And the Etern exist because outside forces did act. It's a matter of where you come from; they beleive there's a legitimate threat.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-01 01:32am

OK, then reject me on those grounds. I am just saying that I am trying to keep the two aspects of these worlds (Etern and colonies) seperate for as long as possible. In essence, have someone to decide the debate that you two are having in-game. You are saying that I have nothing to do here because what Nitram is doing is wrong. Well, the way I see it is this. If you want to try and make a legitimate effort at diplomaticaly settling this issue, I would likely be an asset. If you see this as a filthy grab for power and a blatant attempt at expansion, you don't want me to moderate. You don't even want to be inspecting these worlds. You want to try and kick Nitram right now. And if you are unwilling to do that, then Nitram will continue to expand. In which case I am damage control.

Again, feel free to disagree. But really, Im trying to help you here. Unless you think you can convince Nitram to pull out by convincing him that he really is a bad little boy and should go to his room.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 01:38am

The idealism of 'cultural determinism' vs. saving every life lost to famine, the Black Death and similar epidemics, reducing infant mortality to near nothing, and wiping out the possibility of the Dark Ages. Oh, and removing the possibility of the civilization wiping itself a la a Cold War Gone Hot.

To me(And the Etern) it's a simple choice. I guess I can see the other side, but you'll never convince folks who spent their history in chains because no one helped them, that it's better to turn a blind eye.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-01 01:40am

Is Nitram strawmaning? Perhaps. But remember, Rogue9, the STGOD Game Thread is not a place for sully things like logic and argumentative strategies. It is the realm of sophistry. IF you do not learn to treat it as such, you will get caught up in trying to debate a point of logic, when unless you can make it matter diplomatically, it doesnt matter. This will get very frustrating for you.

For example, it doesn't matter what role free will has to play in the Etern expansion. All that matters is "are you goings to do something about it and if so, what?"

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 01:43am

He knows that and this conversation is not meant to change Nitram's mind, it's just a fun little agruement, relax.

The UP might, might be open to a comprise, depending on the deal.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 01:46am

frigidmagi wrote:He knows that and this conversation is not meant to change Nitram's mind, it's just a fun little agruement, relax.

The UP might, might be open to a comprise, depending on the deal.

Well, obviously the Etern are gonna be stubborn, but if you want a compromise to toss out there, why not suggest that other nations also participate in helping these worlds up towards star travel and the required tech? Many hands would make the work lighter, and removes the idea that it's just the Etern grabbing land; the worlds would have their own choice as to who to ally with when they were full fledged star travellers.

This would cut down on my industrial gain, but meh, I didn't want to stretch myself that much anyways.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 01:47am

I would be open to that providing that there were a vary of powers on every planet.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 01:48am

frigidmagi wrote:I would be open to that providing that there were a vary of powers on every planet.

That would be the idea. Toss it out ICly, see if you can get others to join in.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 01:54am

Sure you don't want the credit IC?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 01:57am

frigidmagi wrote:Sure you don't want the credit IC?

We're stubborn barbarians, who utterly beleive we are doing the right thing. I'm willing to take the hit for being stubborn and headstrong; it's accurate. Go on. If people seem to like it, the Etern will likely agree.