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Yeah but.. he was such a control freak.Sunstreaker wrote:Squall (FF8)
He maybe whiny and unsure of himself, but in the end aren’t we all. He was the one I could relate to the best.
Aeris is too much of a Mary-Sue for my liking. So Aya > Aeris.Xisiqomelir wrote:Zod wins many internets, except I would pick Aeris over Aya Brea.
Xenogears is nine entirely different brands of suck. It's got one of those stupid stories that are oft associated with mecha anime and RPGs that confuse hundreds of twists and turns, endless cryptic plottery by villains we won't actually get introduced to for fifty hours, and a whiny prat as the main character with interesting story and character development. There are far too many simply unwinnable fights (fights you are meant to lose. For every one of these that appears in an RPG, the people responsible should be hung by the neck until they are sorry), and the whole thing proceeds at a genuinely leaden pace, so much so that they couldn't even finish the fucker, and the entire second CD consists of "here's what we would have done, if we had the time and money", with two uninteresting dungeons, and screen after screen of exposition presented as a Wall of Text.NeoGoomba wrote:Gah! Xenogears totally slipped my mind.
You're confusing stupid with deep.Vendetta wrote:Xenogears is nine entirely different brands of suck. It's got one of those stupid stories that are oft associated with mecha anime and RPGs that confuse hundreds of twists and turns,NeoGoomba wrote:Gah! Xenogears totally slipped my mind.
How so? Xenogears actually has quite a low amount of pointless exposition; if a villians going to do something you damn well see the consequences of it soon enough.endless cryptic plottery by villains we won't actually get introduced to for fifty hours,
Fei quits being so whiny after the prison section.and a whiny prat as the main character with interesting story and character development.
This is untrue. You can even win the "unwinnable" fight against Alpha Weltall on board the Eldridge.There are far too many simply unwinnable fights (fights you are meant to lose. For every one of these that appears in an RPG, the people responsible should be hung by the neck until they are sorry),
Yeah that was a downer. But hey, no game's perfect.and the whole thing proceeds at a genuinely leaden pace, so much so that they couldn't even finish the fucker, and the entire second CD consists of "here's what we would have done, if we had the time and money", with two uninteresting dungeons, and screen after screen of exposition presented as a Wall of Text.
Who knows? Maybe the bad guys pumped in knockout gas. Maybe they couldn't get out of powered down mechs. Maybe they knew they'd get shot if they tried.The only redeeming feature was that they crucified Chu-Chu. (and even that was a fucking stupid scene. They crucified giant fucking robots and the pilots were reduced to helplessness. What, could they not get out and cut themselves free, or at least fight on foot.)
Well I can't really argue with you there. The pacing was awful, the plot points, original or blatantly stolen from other mediums, you can see coming a mile away (OH NOES, THE SOYLENT SYSTEM IS PEOPLE!?! SHOCK AND AWE), and it had vibes of Evangelion, which I really never liked. Plus all of disc two. And let us not forget the 8 year old who rode her giant robot instead of piloting it, and Blanka from Street Fighter armed with Zangief's movelist.Vendetta wrote: Xenogears is nine entirely different brands of suck
Funny, because that's exactly what I'm accusing Xenogears fans of doing. Xenogears, in spite of, nay, because of all the twists and meanderings in the plot, is not deep, it's stupid. The plot changes direction and focus so many times it seems like it has Dissociative Identity Disorder, until by the third or fourth "shocking revelation of the true enemy" (and well before everyone turns into goo, because, yep, that's what they did in Evangelion) you really just don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock any more and just want it to end.Cao Cao wrote: You're confusing stupid with deep.
Oh come on! The game is dripping with scenes with Emperor Cain, the SOL-9000, and Grahf all wittering on about things that don't actually come into play until the second goddamn disc! Hell, the whole point of who Grahf actually is and what he's up to isn't revealed until nearly the end.How so? Xenogears actually has quite a low amount of pointless exposition; if a villians going to do something you damn well see the consequences of it soon enough.
Fei quits being so whiny after the prison section.
Late in the game he gets a little worse again, but at that point he has some damn good reasons to.
By a stupidly convoluted method that involves excessive level and item grinding that no-one in their right mind would ever do, because the game just carries on as if you'd lost anyway. Because these fights are stupid. Always. And it's not like this is the only fight that the game flags as unwinnable either. There's Wiseman at Aveh, the first fight with Rico, Weltall-id... They're all over the fucking place.This is untrue. You can even win the "unwinnable" fight against Alpha Weltall on board the Eldridge.
Or maybe the scene was just the product of a bunch of idiots who had somehow been turned loose on a videogame script and wanted to throw in one more religious reference because that's what Evangelion did. Just like the rest of the damn game. (I mean come on, did the stupid not cause your head to explode when they build up that Merkava fortress as a doomsday weapon, only to have the Macross-7 swoop down and kill it in an unlosable fight!).Who knows? Maybe the bad guys pumped in knockout gas. Maybe they couldn't get out of powered down mechs. Maybe they knew they'd get shot if they tried.
The Soylent = people thing was never meant to be a plot twist, it was just used to gross out Fei who had just eaten a fuckton of the stuff before finding out.NeoGoomba wrote:Well I can't really argue with you there. The pacing was awful, the plot points, original or blatantly stolen from other mediums, you can see coming a mile away (OH NOES, THE SOYLENT SYSTEM IS PEOPLE!?! SHOCK AND AWE)
All RPGs are guilty to that to an extent. I really didn't see Xenogears being worse than others in that respect.Vendetta wrote:Funny, because that's exactly what I'm accusing Xenogears fans of doing. Xenogears, in spite of, nay, because of all the twists and meanderings in the plot, is not deep, it's stupid. The plot changes direction and focus so many times it seems like it has Dissociative Identity Disorder, until by the third or fourth "shocking revelation of the true enemy" (and well before everyone turns into goo, because, yep, that's what they did in Evangelion) you really just don't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock any more and just want it to end.
Except Cain isn't actually a villian, and the Gazelle Ministry's ramblings do have relevance to what's going on. Grahf? He's just crazy.Oh come on! The game is dripping with scenes with Emperor Cain, the SOL-9000, and Grahf all wittering on about things that don't actually come into play until the second goddamn disc! Hell, the whole point of who Grahf actually is and what he's up to isn't revealed until nearly the end.
Cite some examples after the prison sequence then.The whole point of Fei's character is that he's a whiny bitch! It's his whiny bitch nature that keeps id in check. He doesn't stop being a whiny bitch until he gets to fuck Elly.
Those are obvious "you lose" fights, and are over quickly enough. I was thinking of the fights against Grahf and such.By a stupidly convoluted method that involves excessive level and item grinding that no-one in their right mind would ever do, because the game just carries on as if you'd lost anyway. Because these fights are stupid. Always. And it's not like this is the only fight that the game flags as unwinnable either. There's Wiseman at Aveh, the first fight with Rico, Weltall-id... They're all over the fucking place.
*shrugs*(I mean come on, did the stupid not cause your head to explode when they build up that Merkava fortress as a doomsday weapon, only to have the Macross-7 swoop down and kill it in an unlosable fight!).
Really? You didn't notice how every major plot phase completely ignored the last major plot phase, introduced a new set of antagonists, and made everything you'd done up to that point completely irrelevant (Another bugbear in RPGs. It kills any connection you might have with the environment in that part of the game on replay. Seriously. FFIV introduces one major new villain at the end, Xenogears does this about five goddamn times!Cao Cao wrote: All RPGs are guilty to that to an extent. I really didn't see Xenogears being worse than others in that respect.
I mean you cite FFIV as having a good story, but it too suffered from "no, he's the real enemy!" syndrome along with the hilarious Kain the Serial Backstabber routine.
Cain's status as a villain or otherwise is irrelevant, he's still guilty of having no other function throughout 90% of the game than to foreshadow events that won't happen until right at the end. Likewise the Gazel ministry's endless wittering doesn't actually become relevant until they press the "turn the world into goo" button, nor does anything Cain says. Until that point, nothing they have said has any impact on or relevance to the plot!. They explain nothing, they speak in the standard Xenogears code of -Veiled Hints- and -Allusions-, and rather than actually alluding to or hinting at anything relevant, their endless foreshadowing is actually used in large part as a substitute for actual plot, because as mentioned none of it is relevant until right near the end of the game, yet it starts unaccountably early and carries on, over and over, all the way through. Like I said before, by the time the real big bad actually turns up, you don't give a fuck any more.Except Cain isn't actually a villian, and the Gazelle Ministry's ramblings do have relevance to what's going on. Grahf? He's just crazy.
The real villians such as Miang and Krelian patently did not waffle on and on before getting to the point.
Coincidentally, I do not have the script of Xenogears memorised. In fact, I have repeatedly tried to forget the experience of playing it, having realised I can never claw back that lost time. But howabout when he has a complete spaz attack, removing him entirely from the party, or on Solaris when he finds out about id...Cite some examples after the prison sequence then.
The point is that "you lose" fights are fucking stupid. They're irritating as a player, because the events are completely out of your control. If they wanted you to lose the fight, have a fucking cutscene, not a battle (and make it one that isn't stupid, like the capture in FFX, piddly men that do two or three digit damage are not scary at that point in the game).Those are obvious "you lose" fights, and are over quickly enough. I was thinking of the fights against Grahf and such.
Again, it's not about it being "a surprise" it's about it being a stupid piece of game design, as well as a monumentally stupid deus ex machina. The level of challenge should escalate as the game goes on. It's nearly as bad as Yu Yevon. (though an unlosable last boss fight is fucking inexcubable).*shrugs*
The Xenogears was already built up as the ultimate power bar none so it's not like it came as a surprise.