d20 Magic items

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2006-12-01 03:32pm

For those of you who play dnd, Im sure you are familiar with the rule that states that XP has to be expended to create magic items. I thought this was rather strange, because in the real world, you get expierence from creating things.

Does anyone else find this strange, and have you made any variant rules to deal with it?

lPeregrine · Post by **lPeregrine** » 2006-12-01 04:23pm

Seems out of character, but I'm sure it's there as a balancing factor. It's supposed to cut down on "hey, we have a month before the next adventure... lets get full +20 equipment!" problems I think. It forces you to decide whether a magic item is actually worth it to you, rather than having a way too powerful character with every item in the book.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2006-12-01 05:03pm

I dunno. In most parties Ive been in, *no one* makes items, because its easier to not lose xp, and get it from the NPCs

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-12-01 05:50pm

Two solutions spring to my mind:

1) Items don't cost XP, but they must be created in certain places or using rare, perishable items that can't be bought. So if someone wants to make an item, they have to go out and personally get the required items or go to the special place.

2) Keep in mind that if none of your players are willing to sacrifice the XP, very few NPC's will either, and they won't be willing to part with them. If the group only finds a handful of magic items in an entire campaign, making one themselves seems like a better bargain.

LaserRifleofDoom · Post by **LaserRifleofDoom** » 2006-12-01 06:10pm

I've always just played that you can either pay full price, or go for the reduced price/ XP cost. It eliminates the 'Bob's Magic Shop' mentality too, since you're making the items yourself.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-12-01 07:05pm

I've run some variant rules on it. The most common one was the 'Craft Points' from Wizards itself; some classes and some feats give you 'craft points' which fill in for XP when making magical gear. The others were only really good for evil campaigns; things like using other people's souls.

I prefer to keep the XP costs there. If the PCs are stingy, well, they can't get stuff cause everyone else will be stingy. They can get what they find, and like it.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-12-01 07:43pm

The xp cost is there to represent the creator investing some of his own power in the item, like Sauron with the one ring but less so.

As for magic item creation by players, I DM most of the time. Despite the small amount of playing time I have, I've done about half the item creation in my gaming group. I'm fairly willing to drop the xp on items for myself, but I'm much more reluctant to do it for others (Trizkel being an exception).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2006-12-01 08:00pm

Well, you could always go with the 2e version for a while. Make a magic item, lose a point of Constitution. Then I'd bet they'd pay their XP and like it.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2006-12-01 09:09pm

As an old-time hardcore first edition AD&Der who hasn't picked up a D&D book since second edition, I have to ask the question: what the fuck?

Seriously, the creation of magic items should just be difficult, expensive, time consuming and, in the case of things like a ring of wishes, hazardous to one's lifespan. If your PCs are running around making all-powerful magic items, then the DM is seriously giving away too much, one way or another.

This point of view falls apart for the ridiculously high-level campaigns, I suppose, but for any sane level of play I can't understand the need for such punitive measures.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-12-01 09:18pm

I would expect that monty haul campaigns with too-generous GM's are actually the least likely to have players creating items. Why create something that you can find practically littering the ground, after all?

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2006-12-01 09:21pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I would expect that monty haul campaigns with too-generous GM's are actually the least likely to have players creating items. Why create something that you can find practically littering the ground, after all?

It would depend on what the ground is littered with. Magic -- or at least powerful, desirable magic -- might be relatively scarce. Cash is also an important resource, and if the PCs have too much of it then the game can get unbalanced.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-12-01 10:25pm

SCRawl wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I would expect that monty haul campaigns with too-generous GM's are actually the least likely to have players creating items. Why create something that you can find practically littering the ground, after all?
It would depend on what the ground is littered with. Magic -- or at least powerful, desirable magic -- might be relatively scarce. Cash is also an important resource, and if the PCs have too much of it then the game can get unbalanced.

Perhaps I misinterpreted you, but you were saying that easy item creation is a symptom of too-generous GM's. In my experience, players under generous GM's don't craft because they already have all manner of powerful items and find more with every session.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-12-01 10:31pm

Magic item creation got easier in 3rd, but then again, the game in general shifted so that it was more scalable to meet such. While there are options for those who eschew magical gear, it rapidly becomes quite important to help keep pulling your weight in higher levels.

Personally, I drop very little magical loot and quite a bit of raw currency.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2006-12-01 10:42pm

SirNitram wrote:Personally, I drop very little magical loot and quite a bit of raw currency.

My experience as a player is mostly with DMs who are frugal with both types of treasure; it made me appreciate any loot that much more. Different strokes, etc.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-12-01 10:49pm

SCRawl wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Personally, I drop very little magical loot and quite a bit of raw currency.
My experience as a player is mostly with DMs who are frugal with both types of treasure; it made me appreciate any loot that much more. Different strokes, etc.

Indeed. Then again, I'm an epic kind of DM. I don't do a campaign arc of 'Local warlord threatens region' or 'Defend this town and build it bigger'. My current one has the most dangerous spellcaster in Human history being ressurected.

For such, it is appropriate that the heros not only receive decent chunks of change, forge weapons worthy of that task.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2006-12-02 12:07am

I've never particularly liked item creation for a couple of reasons.

1) It really disrupts the flow of the game when the wizard/cleric/artificer decides to spend a month or so hidden away in their workshop making magical items.

2) The type and availability of magic items really affects the feel of a game, and the DM's responsible for controlling that. It's a lot easier to say to a player, "You can't buy that," than it is to say, "You can't make that."

ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2006-12-02 12:25am

The way I handle it in the Tensided fantasy setting is that the actual creation is pretty painless, but you need an ether crystal to hold the spell. Ether crystals can only be found on Mount Chaos, and due to the peculiar way that magic works, you can only take one ether crystal back with you each time you go there. The more powerful the crystal, the higher up the mountain it will be found, and the more dangerous and weird the hostile creatures you'll find. Nobody's willing to risk their life to get ether crystals just to turn around and sell them, so you have to get it yourself if you want one, and it had better be worth it for the risk involved.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2006-12-02 12:31pm

I perfer a system which is a cross between 3e D&D and AD&D. For AD&D, you needed to seek out special items to create the item (such as the heart of a tree struck by lightning for a wand of lightning) but you don't lose XP. I make it so you have to go on a quest to find a special item for the magical item in addition to the gp cost, and the story reward for the quest is equal to the XP you lose creating the item.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2006-12-02 04:17pm

SirNitram wrote:
SCRawl wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Personally, I drop very little magical loot and quite a bit of raw currency.
My experience as a player is mostly with DMs who are frugal with both types of treasure; it made me appreciate any loot that much more. Different strokes, etc.
Indeed. Then again, I'm an epic kind of DM. I don't do a campaign arc of 'Local warlord threatens region' or 'Defend this town and build it bigger'. My current one has the most dangerous spellcaster in Human history being ressurected.

For such, it is appropriate that the heros not only receive decent chunks of change, forge weapons worthy of that task.

Nitram is also quite into the idea of using 'loot' to create new weapons/armor, if we can drag it home. Unfortunately, he's also into the idea of taking away anything that's *too* powerful ... like those shivers of Karsus' body I collected, or the vials of Whole Magic I filled from Karsus' heart before Blackstaff and Elminister took them from me "for the safety of the Realms".

Just because I start cackling whenever I'm using those to power my spells doesn't mean I'm on a power-trip. Honestly, you nearly kill yourself casting a Maximized, Empowered, Heightened superMeta Spell, and they think you're going to turn into a threat to the Realms and take away your god-stones.

They did give me a nice sword, tho... Brilliant Energy & SureStrike, due to the sliver of Karsus embedded down the fuller.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-12-02 06:47pm

There are feats and magic items that offset the XP cost ya know....

Hell, there are prestige classes dedicated to the concept of minimization of XP expenditure to make magic items.....

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-12-02 10:27pm

Solauren wrote:There are feats and magic items that offset the XP cost ya know....

Hell, there are prestige classes dedicated to the concept of minimization of XP expenditure to make magic items.....

My current piratical campaign has a gnome artificer...she started out making Needles of Mending to sell, and has moved on to introducing largely nonmagical Bob-ombs into DnD. (Metalworking + Clockwork + Alchemy + a little bit of magic for the remote trigger.)

Velthuijsen · Post by **Velthuijsen** » 2006-12-04 03:12pm

It depends a bit on the setting.
A friend DMs a setting if I'd dump the amount of items the group I DM has into then the people getting those items would be able to conquer the world.
That setting is (as you might have surmised) low to very low magic. In fact our group is considered an up and coming major power (even though we are only 5th level) because we have a cleric (played by me) who actually receives divine magic and a real wizard. Me and guy who plays the wizard had a good talk with the DM and the end result is that we are going to use symbolic and power components if we reach a point where we want to make magic items (also all the magic creation feats are dropped). This to not to prevent us from getting way to powerful by being able to create items at will, it is to give a world background explanation of why we can't just create swords+1 by the wagonload seeing the minimal xp cost vs profits.

On the other hand there is a setting like the one I run where the players are chosen by fate to be larger then life heroes. I actually reduced the costs of potions and everything else that uses charges, scrolls are left at normal costs.
Permanent items are there in bound and free, both having an increased cost (money,xp,time) this to offset that anyone can pay the xp costs in a player group.
Everyone willing to pay the price can get bound items but there is a limit to how powerful bound items can be made. Then there is the effect of those items having an affinity with the owner, which means a +2 weapon would work as a +1 for a friend, be just magical for almost everyone else and (in this case) effectively non magical for an enemy. This same affinity allows the item creator to completely/partially/not shift the burden of XP cost to the owner. Last there is a ceiling in the power of bound items.
Free items require hero points (AKA DMs discretion) which can be awarded for heroic deeds (ofcourse). Free items don't suffer the reduction nor cap.
Interesting thing is that my players are hoarding a whole alchemist lab of different potions to compensate so they can have for example their flaming sword (even if it only lasts as long as the oil applied) or cold resistance. I can put enemies in their way with good gear without having to worry that it results in rivers of cash for the players and now they've found out that being heroes also rewards them with the future possibility of better items they are really trying to be heroes (I did tell them suicidal tactics with blind luck are not heroic).
But that is just game mechanics. Storywise it's a grueling process with costs in the form of bodily harm, pints of blood, wierd fumes and other such deprivations to create an item.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-12-04 05:32pm

I'm sure this was something they cooked up in playtest as a response to abuse of item creation feats.

Keep in mind that making an item costs a fraction of the gold needed to buy the same item. There are "wealth by level" guildelines for the total value of a character's equipment. If players were able to make all their own items at half the cost of purchasing them, the could have far better equipment than the game is balanced to handle.

Without the XP cost, the only other limit on magical equipment for players is time, but item creation is usually handled "off screen", so it doesn't actually impact the players.

So, the game developers implemented the XP cost as a limit on magic item creation by player characters. I'm not sure what the rationalization is, but the real reason is game balance.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-12-04 05:41pm

In practice, there's no such thing as a "magic item shop" in my campaigns. You CAN hire a wizard to make an item for you: some make a tidy living cranking out just a few magic items a year. There's a fair chance the item won't be ready in time for your next adventure, though, so you better plan ahead.

My wife also invented a sort of "item creation XP" theory. Basically, you don't lose XP for creating magic items, but the total XP value of all the items you have ever made can't exceed your current XP total.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2006-12-04 08:51pm

I tend to have the magic shop in my game, but it is very much limited by location. You wont find the +5 sword shop in a viillage of 100 people - itll be in Sigil.