Fun with Knoppix, or: Linux is hard

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-21 02:26pm

I'm messing around with Knoppix 5.1.1, the LiveCD. So far it's pretty fun, nice interface, a lot easier to use than I thought, but there's a problem: no internet.

I connect to my router through a Siemens Santis Wlan PCMCIA card, which to the best of my Google-Fu uses an Atmel AT76c5____ chipset. It doesn't have linux drivers, except for a Sourceforge project that hasn't been updated in ages. Now, seeing as how I'm a total Linux n00b the install didn't work, I think; it took me half an hour to figure out how navigate through that terminal thing as root, but apart from getting the #make install command to do it's thing I couldn't make heads or tails of the instructions.

Long, boring story short, is there an idiotproof way of getting a Linuxdriver-less Wlan card to work? Or an idiot's guide to installing stuff under Knoppix?

EnsGabe · Post by **EnsGabe** » 2007-01-21 03:31pm

Poke around on http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net. NDISwrapper implements the windows wireless driver API, so you should have some luck there.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-01-21 07:57pm

Ndiswrapper is a pain to use, but it is doable on an installed Linux system-I'm using it right now to power my Linksys USB adapter on this old Dell desktop. It took me about two hours to get it working, and required some use of the CLI, but the ego trip I got from having successfully configured it made it all worthwhile.

However, there is also a lot of wireless hardware that does support Linux, so if you're looking for a solution that "just works," I would go that route. Wasteful, perhaps, but what the heck. I would not try to use ndiswrapper, with a LiveCD, as while I'm sure its possible, it would just be too agonizing.

Also, while Knoppix has a lot of fans, I view it primarily as a system recovery tool. I have messed around with it a bit, and it seems to be a competent enough distro to install on a desktop, but when it comes to installed (as opposed to live-CD/recovery) use, I found it to be a little bit too "plain vanilla." There are other, more exciting distros out there for use on an actual HD. Furthermore, as a recovery system, I would be just as inclined to use Mandriva One (which I have used repeatedly in this manner), thanks to its industry-leading partitioning tool.

However, I don't want to deprecate Knoppix at all, as Klaus Knopper is a visionary, and the system of Live CDs and DVDs that he originated is one of Linux'es most innovative and desirable features, and really gives it a sharp competitive edge compared to Windows, which does not have, and in all probability, never will have, this functionality. In my opinion, the creation of Knoppix was an event on a par with the creation of the original Linux kernel in terms of significance, and is a major driving force behind Linux'es continued success as a platform.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-01-21 09:14pm

There's an unofficial Windows live CD out there called BartPE (link) although it's probably not nearly as flexible as Knoppix.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-01-21 09:15pm

Eew, no thanks.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-22 03:50am

Also, while Knoppix has a lot of fans, I view it primarily as a system recovery tool. I have messed around with it a bit, and it seems to be a competent enough distro to install on a desktop, but when it comes to installed (as opposed to live-CD/recovery) use, I found it to be a little bit too "plain vanilla." There are other, more exciting distros out there for use on an actual HD. Furthermore, as a recovery system, I would be just as inclined to use Mandriva One (which I have used repeatedly in this manner), thanks to its industry-leading partitioning tool.

I'm using it as a pain-free way of trying out Linux. At some point in the future I am considering installing Linux (probably Mandriva, if this old notebook can handle it - 192 MB RAM isn't exactly a lot) as my main OS, but I first wanted to do a dry run. Since getting the card to work under Linux isn't an *absolute* priority, I'm going to try to use this ndiswrapper thing before throwing money at the problem.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2007-01-22 07:21am

For low memory systems, I'd recommend Xubuntu w/ opera- 192 isn't really a lot (GNOME apps suck up 1/3 of my laptop's RAM (256M) for mundane things, and the rest is taken up by Firefox).

As for ndiswrapper, I believe that's included w/ ubuntu, so all you need to do is track down the windows driver and feed it the .ini and .sys file, but this might require an actual install rather than running it off the CD.

For knoppix this looks useful: http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Wireless_Networking - looks like it has a GUI to control ndiswrapper.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-22 07:28am

For low memory systems, I'd recommend Xubuntu w/ opera- 192 isn't really a lot (GNOME apps suck up 1/3 of my laptop's RAM (256M) for mundane things, and the rest is taken up by Firefox).

Yeah, I just tried the Mandriva One LiveCD and it was slow as molasses. Maybe I should just upgrade - hell, even my mother did a successful hardware upgrade on her laptop

I haven't been able to find the proper memory yet - do they still make SO-DIMM PC2100 200-pin 266Mhz sticks? I've only found the 333 Mhz version.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2007-01-22 07:52am

I think the 333MHz ones should work.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-22 12:23pm

Pu-239 wrote:I think the 333MHz ones should work.

"Should" as in "I see no reason why it wouldn't", or as in "cross your fingers and hope it doesn't catch fire"?

The wrapper thing isn't going well, by the way. I found a pci id through elimination but it doesn't match any of the confirmed working drivers. To make matters more interesting, the .cab file of the Windows driver has half a dozen .sys and .inf versions with no documentation of which one matches my card (some of them are marked "USB", so my guess is they just dumped drivers for the whole product line, PCMIA or otherwise, in one installer).

Bollocks.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-01-22 12:59pm

I'm using it as a pain-free way of trying out Linux. At some point in the future I am considering installing Linux (probably Mandriva, if this old notebook can handle it - 192 MB RAM isn't exactly a lot) as my main OS, but I first wanted to do a dry run. Since getting the card to work under Linux isn't an *absolute* priority, I'm going to try to use this ndiswrapper thing before throwing money at the problem.

I've used Mandriva on an old IBM NetVista with about that level of RAM (and a 933 mhz Pentium 3). I wasn't able to get it to install for some reason (I suspect there is a problem with the CD ROM drive), so I actually installed it to an HD using a seperate PC, and then loaded this HD into the NetVista, and it worked fine. Still, doing it that way is NOT a Good Idea. This was Mandriva One 2006, so 2007 might be a tad slower.

However, there are better choices than Mandriva for use on older hardware, IMO.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-22 01:08pm

However, there are better choices than Mandriva for use on older hardware, IMO.

If I'm going for Linux, I'm now leaning towards Kubuntu and a RAM upgrade to 768MB. The only thing really tying me down to Windows at the moment is the wireless support, time constraints and cold feet - the first two can be fixed, the last one...maybe

For everything else I might as well go penguin. The applications I use either have native Linux versions (Mozilla products, OOo), Linux-based alternatives (iPod management, media software) or can be run through Wine. On the issue of user-friendliness, I've come to the point where keeping my four-year-old XP install running takes up more time than setting up Linux would. And with the new external drive, I can keep my Windows installation on standby in case the experiment doesn't work out.

But yeah, cold feet

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2007-01-22 05:11pm

+1 for Xubuntu. I use it and it works very well on a relatively slow computer.
Unfortunately, there are some things that seem to run much slower than on XP, but overall it's a much more pleasant experience.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2007-01-22 05:14pm

Bounty wrote:
Pu-239 wrote:I think the 333MHz ones should work.
"Should" as in "I see no reason why it wouldn't", or as in "cross your fingers and hope it doesn't catch fire"?

"Should", as in "If the BIOS writers weren't complete morons." Sometimes it doesn't work because they are morons, and only allow the computer to take memory with the SPD settings exactly identical to what they want. Faster doesn't matter, it has to have an entry for the frequency they want.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-01-22 09:49pm

If I'm going for Linux, I'm now leaning towards Kubuntu and a RAM upgrade to 768MB. The only thing really tying me down to Windows at the moment is the wireless support, time constraints and cold feet - the first two can be fixed, the last one...maybe

Kubuntu is a pretty good choice - I'm doing some UI design work for the next version of it, and I'm pretty excited. Ubuntu with GNOME is also quite nice (its UI design is extremely elegant, and Ubuntu appears to be the hottest Linux distro of the moment). However, if you're primarily interested in using KDE rather than GNOME, Mandriva is probably a better choice, as of all the KDE distros I've used, it offered the best experience (by some margin). There is also a fork of Mandriva called PCLinuxOS, which has the added plus of being a bit more community-driven than Mandriva, which is rather notorious for its closed development model.

Xubuntu is also a nice system, but if you're curious about it, its also availible (along with vanilla Ubuntu) as an "expansion pack" for Kubuntu. You just download and install. Xubuntu uses XFCE, which, as you may know, is a lightweight alternative to KDE and GNOME (although from my experience, it has annoying quirks as well). For a pure XFCE system, there's Zenwalk, which would probably work quite well on your older hardware, although I think the installation process might be overwhelming at this stage of your Linux use.

Also, don't completely disregard the BSDs. PC-BSD (which I'm doing some UI work on) is very nice, and I've also got NetBSD installed, although that's a very difficult install and I have X working but not a window manager or networking (yet). I intend to use it for brushing up my skills with vi and the command prompt.

Regarding the RAM, you really don't need it, although it would be cool to have. However, even with it, you still might not be able to get some of the interesting new 3D OpenGL effects.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-23 04:07am

Regarding the RAM, you really don't need it, although it would be cool to have. However, even with it, you still might not be able to get some of the interesting new 3D OpenGL effects.

I wouldn't get it for fancy effects; those are the first things I turned off in Windows. It's just that I'm intending to keep using this notebook for at least a few years to come and I'm finding more and more common applications that need more RAM than I have.

There is also a fork of Mandriva called PCLinuxOS, which has the added plus of being a bit more community-driven than Mandriva, which is rather notorious for its closed development model.

I'll look into it.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2007-01-23 09:00am

RThurmont wrote: Regarding the RAM, you really don't need it, although it would be cool to have. However, even with it, you still might not be able to get some of the interesting new 3D OpenGL effects.

Compiz doesn't really need RAM- it does need either an nVidia card or integrated intel graphics, or decent ATi card if you're willing to put up w/ some suckyness. That said, I wouldn't enable it on a laptop while on battery- it'll drain that thing dry.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-01-23 10:32am

XFCE 4.4 has just been released and looks pretty nice - but Xubuntu hasn't quite updated to it, yet.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2007-01-23 12:57pm

I need to switch to xubuntu- running a full blown GNOME on my T22 and it's a laggy pain in the ass.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-28 11:56am

Well, I've joined the legions of casual Linux users. I'm too much of a n00bish pussy to make the switch completely, so until I can get my wireless going, I'm dualbooting XP Pro and Kubuntu Edgy Eft.

I'm surprised I managed to do this without something breaking catastrophically. This morning I barely knew partitioning and formatting were two different things...

Pleasant surprise: while Kubunu didn't autoconfigure my printer, it did properly identify it and installing the drivers was a matter of clicking through three screens.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-01-28 12:33pm

Ubuntu and its derivatives are, in my mind, a lot better at installing new printers for instance. In XP SP2, I had to have the disk on hand to even get the thing recognised. Ubuntu picked it up as soon as it plugged in and installed the correct drivers. I never did like XP's driver management system, it always cacked up after a while, least 2000 never had the problems I've experienced.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-01-28 04:46pm

Well, I've joined the legions of casual Linux users. I'm too much of a n00bish pussy to make the switch completely, so until I can get my wireless going, I'm dualbooting XP Pro and Kubuntu Edgy Eft.

I'm surprised I managed to do this without something breaking catastrophically. This morning I barely knew partitioning and formatting were two different things...

Pleasant surprise: while Kubunu didn't autoconfigure my printer, it did properly identify it and installing the drivers was a matter of clicking through three screens.

Congratulations. Kubuntu is a great system (though if I were you I'd also download Ubuntu and Xubuntu, as it can be pleasant to occasionally change GUIs, oh also, full disclosure, Kubuntu is one of two FOSS projects that I'm involved with). A lot of people are really terrified of the process of installing linux, and of hardware not being detected properly, and while the latter remains a risk, Linux installation is getting easier and easier, and hardware detection is improving. I think that in 2007, were going to see a snowball effect in which many of the remaining desktop annoyances are dealt with.

EDIT: I also wanted to say there is nothing n00bish about continuing to use XP, since XP does have a vastly superior library of commercial apps compared to any other operating system. I would argue that it would be dumb not to, in fact.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2007-01-29 03:45am

EDIT: I also wanted to say there is nothing n00bish about continuing to use XP, since XP does have a vastly superior library of commercial apps compared to any other operating system. I would argue that it would be dumb not to, in fact.

My original plan was to put XP on one partition using a slipstreamed CD, Linux on another and use the rest of the hard drive as a data partition. Instead I took the easy route, resized my existing NTFS partition and installed Kubuntu behind it. Not very elegant.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2007-01-29 03:53am

Still, its fully workable. If you have fast enough hardware, the most elegant approach would be to use VMWare to run Windows XP, but then, you would naturally get a performance hit, so I wouldn't attempt that unless you have a really high performance system.

I would keep a CD with Mandriva One on it around though, for use in the event that you b0rk something... Mandriva's partitioning tools are the best I've seen.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2007-01-29 09:25am

VMWare is actually quite fast - the main issue isn't really CPU power but RAM and HD I/O (anything that writes to the HD is really, really slow unless you give each VMWare image it's own HD)