Which FF Empire is Strongest?

[Darth Fanboy]

Of all the empires/nations/city states depicted in each of the Final Fantasy games, Which nation (as depicted at any point during its respective game) do you think is the most powerful?

Examples:

Final Fantasy VI - "The Empire"
Final Fantasy VII - Shinra Inc.
Final Fantasy VIII - Galbadia, Esthar
Final Fantasy IX - Alexandria, Lindblum, Burmecia
Final Fantasy X & X2 - Bevelle (pre Sin), Zanarkand (pre Sin), Nation of Yevon
Final Fantasy XII - Archades, Rozarria

obviously this is not a complete list of examples, and I am currently undecided.

[Covenant]

I'm going to say that The Empire is arguably the most powerful, given their massive infrastructure advantage over most of the other citystates. Plus, the inclusion of fairly advanced weaponry (not just airships, but missiles, lasers, and giant world-shattering ancient devices) makes them a pretty good match for anyone else on the field. They've got high mobility troopers with about as far as we've ever seen Final Fantasy take mass-production of Mechs, so that's also heavy armor.

It just seems the most heavily armed conventional military depicted, and it certainly made a lot bigger mess during warfare than I think any other nationstate ever did in a Final Fantasy game. At least, to their own specific credit.

I'm assuming this is a Versus type depiction, where we'd be comparing their effectiveness against each other or a given foe, rather than how well they stop a plucky band of adventurers. Can you tell us how you want us to judge power?

[Magus]

I'd say the Allied Garden Forces of FF VIII. They're the best of the best mercenaries, well funded enough to field entire armies' worth of equipment, able to magically bond to supernatural beings who increase their power to no end.

The only reason they got squashed in the game's beginning was a lack of cohesion, inter-garden feuding, and being attacked by surprise by a nasty barrage of ICBM. In a straight-on fight, I think the Gardens could have taken on all the nations in FF VIII

Edit: Granted, I've only played up to VIII.

[General Zod]

I'd say the Allied Garden Forces of FF VIII. They're the best of the best mercenaries, well funded enough to field entire armies' worth of equipment, able to magically bond to supernatural beings who increase their power to no end.

The only reason they got squashed in the game's beginning was a lack of cohesion, inter-garden feuding, and being attacked by surprise by a nasty barrage of ICBM. In a straight-on fight, I think the Gardens could have taken on all the nations in FF VIII

Edit: Granted, I've only played up to VIII.

If a surprise ICBM barrage could take down the Garden, what makes you think they'd stand much of a chance against Gestalt's Empire in 6? They have fully functioning missiles and airships on their side, after all. And the Gardens don't have much in the way of air support or heavy armor.

[Magus]

If a surprise ICBM barrage could take down the Garden, what makes you think they'd stand much of a chance against Gestalt's Empire in 6? They have fully functioning missiles and airships on their side, after all. And the Gardens don't have much in the way of air support or heavy armor.

Good point. I'm probably placing too much faith in their ability to remain mobile and hidden - which would probably be largely negated by airships.

[XaLEv]

Nitpick: Intercontinental, certainly, but they were cruise missiles, not ballistic missiles.

I lean towards Esthar. Consider that they appear to be the largest country on their planet, a significant percentage of their country's area is totally urbanized, they have a strong space program and highly developed orbital presence, and despite that appear to be almost wholly isolationist with the rest of the world being ignorant of their true status. The resources, industrial and technological capability implied by that are staggering.

[Darth Raptor]

Shinra and Galbadia aren't even all that advanced, really. They're just stylized. Take away their magic, and niether one of them would be much of a match for a modern Earth power. Yeah, they've got robots, but their air power is severly lacking. Shinra's limited to helicopters, transports and a single airship. And aside from missiles, Galbadia doesn't seem to have any air power at all (unless you count Galbadia Garden).

Of all the FF empires, only Shinra and Esthar have made it into space; and only Esthar has done so with any degree of respectable success. The problem with Esthar is that we see so little of them. Yeah, they look advanced, but as far as their actual capabilities go, we don't really know much. Remember that Galbadia fought a war with Esthar and survived, and Galbadia's pretty damned pathetic.

Consider WMDs, who has them: Shinra could do a lot of damage with Mako bombs and cannons, but their ability to weaponize them is limited. Pre-Sin, both Bevelle and Zanarkand had nuclear-armed airships, but how do nukes compare with deifacted nethicite? I'm going to cautiously say it comes down to Archadia versus the Magitek Empire. And you can't really count the Goddess statues as being part of Gestahl's arsenal.

[Elessar]

I don't really see why everyone assumes Gestahl's Empire is so advanced beyond his competitors. The majority of his soldiers carried swords; none were ever shown to have guns. His Magitek Knights were few, though Armors were certainly aplenty. How powerful they really are, I don't think we know. Major examples of their use were rather limited: the attack on Narshe (picking on a few surprised guards), South Figaro (guard duty, no action seen), Thamasa (terrorizing the village)... and yet times when they would really be useful, we don't see them in action. Look at the attack on Doma where Cyan is first introduced, why the waste of resources without Armor backup to blast apart mere stone walls?

Shinra, on the other hand, had plenty of expendable soldiers with machine guns. That they could mass produce such weapons would suggest a much more highly-developed industrial base than the Empire, and seriously impacts conclusions of their relative army sizes.

It just feels like we have unquantified tank-analogues with swordsman against real fireteams. I can't remember the state of Shinra's artillery or whether they had armor support... but Gestahl's Empire is weaker than it seems.

[Covenant]

It just feels like we have unquantified tank-analogues with swordsman against real fireteams. I can't remember the state of Shinra's artillery or whether they had armor support... but Gestahl's Empire is weaker than it seems.

This isn't true. They have firearms, but they're only used sporadically. They do not seem to be effective against M-Tek armor, and nobody holds out against the Empire long enough for us to see an actual demonstration of full power. However, the cinematics give us a better canon reference than game mechanics, and gunfire is much more widely used there--even by far-flung border folks like Narshe.

I'll supply a youtube link for reference. What you want to see is about 1 minute in or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1L8Y9zYwuw

Given that we see the Magitek Empire using a large amount of combined arms, including heavy armor, gunships, and infantry together--and we know they have access to airship technology, some degree of biological engineering, and whatever the hell those utterly unkillable Guardians are--I'm still saying they're the most potent conventional military. Shinra has, without a doubt, bigger guns, better tech, and a more powerful energy source. But I don't think it has the kind of warmaking infrastructure to match.

If we take the Goddess Statues out of the the mix then they lose their world-nuking super power though. They can certainly still compete, but it ceases to be the curbstomp it would have been. If we can assume that Kefka does not go insane at that moment, then it gives them access to the Flying Continent. If we don't, then we still have a pretty powerful Empire to contend with.

[Magus]

It's also important to keep in mind that in the FF universe personal firearms have been severely weakened.

Edit: Can we consider that video to be canon, since it was added many years later for the Playstation re-release?

[General Zod]

It's also important to keep in mind that in the FF universe personal firearms have been severely weakened.

Edit: Can we consider that video to be canon, since it was added many years later for the Playstation re-release?

In the original game you have guards shooting what appear to be semi automatic rifles at Terra when she walks into Narshe. There were also several instances of Gestahlt's army having air pwoered vehicles that went after Setzer's airship later on. So, it's safe to say that it's canon. It's just adding eye candy to pre-existing stuff.

[Darth Raptor]

It's also important to keep in mind that in the FF universe personal firearms have been severely weakened.

At least in FFXII they offered an explanation for that: The surface of Ivalice is covered in mimic germinites that are horribly corrosive to complex machinery. That's why everyone on the ground rides chocobos and uses swords, while airships- which fly above the germinite clouds- are far more complex and bristling with modern weaponry.

As far as the ability to destroy the world goes, aside from Kefka and the Goddess statues, we also have the Zilart from FFXI (which not many of you have probably played). They destroyed the world (utterly devastated it and left the few survivors mutated) with a machine. Yeah, it was an accident, but still.

[NeoGoomba]

The Magitek Empire will probably take it, they have the means to deploy large, advanced forces quickly, have the ability to readily use biological weapons (poisoning of Doma and all those bio-freaks they were creating in the Factory), and almost all of their troops are fanatically loyal to the Emperor and General Leo

I always was a fan of the Kingdom of Baron from IV, but all they had was a strong airforce, they'd get clobbered on the ground by almost any of the other major powers.

[Erik von Nein]

In that video posted showing the gunships that Gestahl's army uses they appear to be doing jack all to Setzer's airship. They seem to be it for the entirety of their airforce, considering there were exactly 3 major ships like Setzer's zepplin we ever saw. I don't see how those can compete against Archades' much more dedicated fleet, especially seeing as how they have upwards of (IIRC) 8 fleets.

The only major threat to airships that I remember Gestahl's army having was that funky gaurdian, and I don't see how that will be a threat to ships that have actual ranged weapondry. Other than that, I don't know what else they can really hit them with.

The Archades ships are pretty massive, especially their capital ships, and they have smaller, one-man, carrier borne ships that are somewhat like the gunships Gestahls army has. They can, at least, provide a distraction.

Achades' foot troops suck ass compared to the Empire's troops, of course. Magic is much more prevelant amoung Archades' troops (as well as a smattering of semi-automatic rifles), but that's not going to really help them against the Empires' mechinized weapons.

IN all I think Achades could control the sky and simply blast any organized resistance the Empire could put up (they'd take losses, certainly, but the loss of an entire fleet didn't seem to overtly worry Archades). The Empires troops would most likely stomp the Archadean troops, though.

EDIT: This video shows some of what the smaller, one man ships can do, as well as some of the ground fighting (as well as an apparent shield around the city). It's 7 minutes long and the fighting starts at 3:31.

[Darth Raptor]

At the end of the game, the Archadian Imperial Army has a total of twelve combat airship fleets. That's not counting the Bahamut or their wet navy, which is also supposed to be substantial. As I mentioned earlier, their ground forces suck because they have to. Barring the usual limitations, there's no reason they couldn't use the weapons technology of their airships on the ground. There are also mages in the regular ranks of the Army. Gestahl is limited to his Magitek Knights, which are probably on par with the Archadian Judges.

[General Zod]

At the end of the game, the Archadian Imperial Army has a total of twelve combat airship fleets. That's not counting the Bahamut or their wet navy, which is also supposed to be substantial. As I mentioned earlier, their ground forces suck because they have to. Barring the usual limitations, there's no reason they couldn't use the weapons technology of their airships on the ground. There are also mages in the regular ranks of the Army. Gestahl is limited to his Magitek Knights, which are probably on par with the Archadian Judges.

If we're talking about everything they acquire throughout the game, then you'd have to give the Magitek empire the Goddess statues Kefka gets later on to avoid making things lopsided.

[Erik von Nein]

If we're talking about everything they acquire throughout the game, then you'd have to give the Magitek empire the Goddess statues Kefka gets later on to avoid making things lopsided.

That's most of the reason why I didn't mention The Bahamaut. I totally forgot about the number of fleets, though. Either way, even with their base begining set up on both sides Archades definintly would come out on top, simply because they control the skies and have an obscenely better ability to move troops.

[Darksider]

That's most of the reason why I didn't mention The Bahamaut. I totally forgot about the number of fleets, though. Either way, even with their base begining set up on both sides Archades definintly would come out on top, simply because they control the skies and have an obscenely better ability to move troops.

Even without the Bahamaut, Archadia still has the Alexander, and if it's before the game, the Leviathan. both of those airships are larger than anything the Ghestal empire could hope to field.

I could definitly see the Archadian seventh fleet dealing a severe blow to the Geshtal empire's forces just by virtue of having a command ship that's bigger than anything they've got.

[Covenant]

That's most of the reason why I didn't mention The Bahamaut. I totally forgot about the number of fleets, though. Either way, even with their base begining set up on both sides Archades definintly would come out on top, simply because they control the skies and have an obscenely better ability to move troops.

Even without the Bahamaut, Archadia still has the Alexander, and if it's before the game, the Leviathan. both of those airships are larger than anything the Ghestal empire could hope to field.

I could definitly see the Archadian seventh fleet dealing a severe blow to the Geshtal empire's forces just by virtue of having a command ship that's bigger than anything they've got.

Especially if they focus their forces on airstriking Vector and razing it to the ground. Figaro can move but none of that technology is used by the Empire's base, and it only seems impervious from ground attack. Later it gets torn up by Espers. I don't know how well an all-air force would do all counted, but having just watched the Video, I bet it'd get down to some pretty heavy fighting. It depends on their ability to strafe the ground and avoid AA fire, but that's a fairly intimidating first-strike capacity.

[Darksider]

Especially if they focus their forces on airstriking Vector and razing it to the ground. Figaro can move but none of that technology is used by the Empire's base, and it only seems impervious from ground attack. Later it gets torn up by Espers. I don't know how well an all-air force would do all counted, but having just watched the Video, I bet it'd get down to some pretty heavy fighting. It depends on their ability to strafe the ground and avoid AA fire, but that's a fairly intimidating first-strike capacity.

Do you have a link to the video?

I'm sure imperial AA fire could tear up the Archadian's small fighters without any real problem, IIRC most of the imperial air force consists of fighter or gunship class airships. It's the fact that the archadians have huge-ass honkin' battlewagons that gives them a severe edge.

[Erik von Nein]

Do you have a link to the video?

I'm sure imperial AA fire could tear up the Archadian's small fighters without any real problem, IIRC most of the imperial air force consists of fighter or gunship class airships. It's the fact that the archadians have huge-ass honkin' battlewagons that gives them a severe edge.

I think he might be refering to the video I posted, which mostly shows the smaller, one manned fighters fliting about.

I don't rememebr any AA fire the Empire ever had, other than that huge ass gaurdian, or any fighters for that matter. Only those gunships. What instances are you refering to?

[Darksider]

I think he might be refering to the video I posted, which mostly shows the smaller, one manned fighters fliting about.

I don't rememebr any AA fire the Empire ever had, other than that huge ass gaurdian, or any fighters for that matter. Only those gunships. What instances are you refering to?

The fighter/gunship statement was mostly because I was unsure about the size of the imperial airships in the video above. I actually don't remember much about Final Fantasy IV, so I might be mistaken about the Geshtal empire havin AA capabilities.

[Darth Raptor]

If we're talking about everything they acquire throughout the game, then you'd have to give the Magitek empire the Goddess statues Kefka gets later on to avoid making things lopsided.

Aside from the Bahamut, that really doesn't change much. During the course of the game, Archadia loses her 8th Fleet while later gaining the 12th. If the matchup starts before the war, the eastern Empire will still have a full eleven fleets minus the Bahamut.

[Covenant]

If we're talking about everything they acquire throughout the game, then you'd have to give the Magitek empire the Goddess statues Kefka gets later on to avoid making things lopsided.

Aside from the Bahamut, that really doesn't change much. During the course of the game, Archadia loses her 8th Fleet while later gaining the 12th. If the matchup starts before the war, the eastern Empire will still have a full eleven fleets minus the Bahamut.

It's still a far superior heavy airforce. The Empire rarely uses anything bigger than their small types of gunships, and Setzer is notable for posessing an actual airship in that game.

I just assumed that since the Magitek Empire has access to missiles and beam weapons that you could, you know, just fire those up at things that are harassing ground units. When they're still up there above the cloud layer though, I have no reason to believe Magitek missiles would be of much use.

We hardly ever see any AA weaponry used, despite the fact they have the technology to make it, but they're the only ones with an airforce. You really can't fault them, therefore, for neglecting to show it off. The only other thing in that game that flies is Setzer. Assuming that magitek missiles, beams and conventional weaponry is incapable of inflicting significant damage on an enemy airforce like Archadia has, I think it's safe to say that the Empire is grounded.

[Erik von Nein]

The fighter/gunship statement was mostly because I was unsure about the size of the imperial airships in the video above. I actually don't remember much about Final Fantasy IV, so I might be mistaken about the Geshtal empire havin AA capabilities.

Oh, I see. Those things, if I remember them correctly, weren't much larger than the Archades one man fighters, though I don't remember if anyone piloted them.

You must not remember the game well if you think Gestahl's Empire was from FFIV.