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Well. This is certainly a gigantic patch. Here's the changelog. Discuss.

For me, I've got a few issues re: nerfing the Imperial Guard. Specifically, the Vendicare assassin. The unit sucked enough as it was; a huge price tag for a 3rd tier glorified artillery spotter. They made it so the assassination scope ability doesn't increase the assassin's sight radius (so the assassin will presumably need a spotter now, since they didn't say anything about it not increasing the rifle range), but more importantly they apparently completely nerfed the damage the assassin does to commanders.

That sucks. The assassin wasn't too good at killing commanders to begin with, because more often than not he'll decide to plink away at infantry or some building instead of the commander you want him to shoot. So sure, let's make him less able to do his job, because that's such a brilliant idea.

Oh, and while we're at it, assassination infiltration is a completely separate upgrade now. Brilliant, Holmes; buying infiltration for one single, solitary guy. That's totally worth it. Oh wait. It isn't.

But I'm rather happy with some of the Space Marine changes. They brought back Predator Destructors, and Chaplains can attach to squads now. Honor of the Chapter, bitch! Although on the downside, Assault Marines are now officially no longer worth it, since they take 3 unit cap instead of 2, and had no boost that would let them get beaten up in melee by Guardsmen any less than they do already to justify the increase. Also, Whirlwinds were moved to Tier 4 and nerfed with decreased damage and removal of the ability to fire on the move.

That's insane. As if the Guard didn't have a hard enough time as it is.

Not really; there's always the dear ol' Baneblade. Although Space Marines get Predator Destructors at Tier 3 now, while other heavy armor is still at Tier 4...

The Guard got a buff(ish) in a different form though: Heavy weapons teams can now be ordered to target specific units and no longer deselect/lose control grouping when deploying. Being a guard player who loves to use heavy weapons teams those two things pretty much broke the fun for me before this patch.

Also Guardsmen squads now get a maximum of 5 special weapons, huzzah!

And they finally fixed the irritating bugs to do with stacking Priest/Commissar bonuses - so all in all I'm very pleased with this patch.

Indeed, the IG players are kicking up a merry hell over the the nerfs the patch on the Relic forums. I've seen nearly half a dozen threads closed due to out and out flamewars over the issue in the five days since the patch was released. Even I thought the Assassin nerf was completely unjustified. I don't know what the hell Relic was thinking in nerfing the IG's only viable counter to certain notorious hero units...

Speaking as an Eldar player, however, my favorite aspect of the patch was the 'buffing' of the Dark Reapers -- to me, they were just about worthless in 1.11, and I always eschewed the Dark Reaper aspect stone in favor of Banshees (which also got a nice buff in this patch). The new additions to the Shuriken and Britghtlance platforms actually makes them worthwhile units now, though I still hardly ever build them because I usually end up saving half vehicle cap for my beloved Fire Prisms.

I love the new Vyper as well -- that missile launcher has a huge knock-back effect, and does decent damage to turrets and listening posts. They're actually worth building in this patch, and at least now there's a viable vehicle strategy for the Eldar besides "Wraithlord/Falcon spam."

Rogue 9 wrote:Although on the downside, Assault Marines are now officially no longer worth it, since they take 3 unit cap instead of 2, and had no boost that would let them get beaten up in melee by Guardsmen any less than they do already to justify the increase. Also, Whirlwinds were moved to Tier 4 and nerfed with decreased damage and removal of the ability to fire on the move.

Indeed, I almost never bother with Assault Marines when I play the Astartes anymore -- the added cap seems a little over the top, and I just don't like the way it fills up my population cap before I've even hit Tier 2. I just go for a mass of tactical squads supported by my beloved Grey Knights, Land Speeders, Dreadnoughts, Predator Destructors (hooray!) and so on.

Chaplains are now attachable. I hear the Chaplain + GK combo works really, really well.


Necrons and Tau are actually pretty well balanced now. Necrons especially aren't the "I'll walk all over you" race anymore, and actually have a hard time against some of the other races.

Rogue 9 wrote:*Snip* Vindicare nerfs *Snip*

Agree with you on this one - I want a GOOD assassin !

Rogue 9 wrote:Oh, and while we're at it, assassination infiltration is a completely separate upgrade now. Brilliant, Holmes; buying infiltration for one single, solitary guy. That's totally worth it. Oh wait. It isn't.

Bah, I still prefer the old pre-DC infiltration system . As for this... whoop-dee-doo...

Rogue 9 wrote:But I'm rather happy with some of the Space Marine changes. They brought back Predator Destructors, and Chaplains can attach to squads now.

About damn time .

Rogue 9 wrote:Assault Marines

What are they ? Tactical Squads FTW I say .

Rogue 9 wrote:Also, Whirlwinds were moved to Tier 4 and nerfed with decreased damage and removal of the ability to fire on the move.

Ok the moving and firing nerf I can understand, but nerfing damage & making it harder to get? *Wanders off to find a boltgun*

Anyway, some points that stuck out for me...
Eldar Changes
-Who? Still shredding the poor pointy-helmeted elves with righteous bolter fire, so meh.

Chaos Changes
-Woo lascannons again .
-New Khorne Berserkers ability looks particularly evil.
-Always nerf the Obliterators . Hate the buggers .

IG Changes
-WTF was with the Vindicare Assassin nerf?!
-Woo no damage from Strip Soul. Been nerfed too, but there you go.
-Whaddya mean I can't execute my ogryns ?

Ork Changes
-Costlier Mad Doks = woot!
-Still mowing them down.

Tau Changes
-1 Broadside per squad? Need to see more figures...
-Big Hammerhead health buff . But the armour... hmm.
-Vespids' Shred ability is... evil .

Necron Changes
-Damn that Lightning Field nerf, it's no longer compulsory XD .
-Same for Nightbringer cooldown & Res Orb limit.
-Overall looks like they're beatable for a change .

Marines Changes
-See above.
-Another research for Skull Probe infiltration? Grr...
-Aside from the above, looking good.

Oh well, thank god for the Attribute Editor .

Some of the changes I like the best are really bug fixes. I can select targets for Broadsides and HWTs? Fucking finally. Also FDragons are no longer brain dead idiots "Dur...what tank?"

Interestingly Falcons now carry 2 squads and FDragons count as two for transporting. At least it means we'll see Falcons with something other than FDragons inside them.

Also nice, Rangers costing a bit more, combined with the buffing of Tier1 'shees and Reapers gives Eldar an alternative to going immediately for Rangers.

Shinova wrote:Chaplains are now attachable. I hear the Chaplain + GK combo works really, really well.

I'll probably stick with Librarian attached to the Grey Knights. I likes me my psychic death on wheels.

Eh. I'll get the patch at some point. Of course, they took five times too long, and in stead of solving known issues and leaving everything else alone, they decided to pick up the dice and throw them again. Because, of course, the community asked for bug fixes and the fixing of broken balance issues quickly, so that the game would be playable, so we obviously wanted a complete rebalance that took months

Personally, I think that most of the IG nerfs were just uncalled for, the Basilisk in particular. Because, as we all know, being forced to pay through the nose just to get this unwieldy artillery platform (and only being able to build three of them at that) is completely worth it. And so is the fact that a medieval trebuchet can now outshoot the Basilisk because of the increased reload time! Wait...

In all seriousness, the IG is supposed to be a vehicle-heavy force -- or at least, this is what I recall Relic stating in the previews for Winter Assault -- yet Guardsmen squads are ridiculously expensive for their role as meat shields and most of their early vehicles are worthless (for example, the Chimera's multilaser does more DPS to the Killa Kan than the Sentinel's lascannon). Chaos Cultists are better at melee and eventually get infiltration to boot.

Bloody hell, I'm not even an IG player, and I'm still irritated on the mon-keigh's behalf.

Anyway...

Neko Oni wrote:Some of the changes I like the best are really bug fixes. I can select targets for Broadsides and HWTs? Fucking finally. Also FDragons are no longer brain dead idiots "Dur...what tank?"

Thank Asuryan for that! Did I ever tell you guys about the time (in patch 1.11) I told two squads of Fire Dragons to engage a Necron Monolith and they got the brilliant idea to melee it to death? Much cursing ensued...

Also nice, Rangers costing a bit more, combined with the buffing of Tier1 'shees and Reapers gives Eldar an alternative to going immediately for Rangers.

Indeed, I hardly ever build Rangers anymore, especially in lieu of the fact that most of the races get their morale-immune units in Tier 3 and the Rangers then become quite useless. Unless I'm playing against Imperial Guard, of course...

Can't we do something to tell Relic to fucking un-nerf the IG?

Yes -- play the mods that actually care about some semblance of continuity with the core universe. I gave up playing vanilla DoW not long after WA came out, it was only an exercise in frustration.

There are a few such mods out there. I know Rogue 9's been playing one, personally I've been keeping my eye on Dawn of Warhammer 40,000: Firestorm.

I heartily second Gaius's endorsement of Firestorm -- of course, it probably won't be released for at least a few more months yet, but I for one am certainly looking forward to the day when it's finally ready for a public release. The work Medes and Mirage Knight have put into this project is impressive. Most impressive.

It's quite sad when you realize that in the current version of DoW, the Looted Leman Russ (which simultaneously fills the role of Leman Russ tank and Basilisk for the Orks) is actually far more effective than the version the Guard can build when (and if) they finally reach Tier 4. I fail to see how Looted Leman Russes can be considered fair if Basilisks aren't.

Yes, I heartily recommend Dawn of War Expanded while waiting for the new version of Dawn of Warhammer 40k. The patch has screwed with some of the mod's features, though; the assassin is uncloaked and since the mod changes the research defaults, the research for the infiltration isn't there. Riker will probably post a patch for the mod pretty soon to fix the issues with 1.2.

And the other thing with the assassin that I should have brought up in the OP but didn't: With the research for infiltration, the thing costs nearly as much as a Baneblade. Now which is more useful, a Baneblade or an assassin? Or while we're at it, a Kasrkin squad or an uncloaked assassin, since they're the exact same price?

While we're discussing that mod, there's talk of implementing an Imperial Guard medic in it, and they're looking for suggestions for voiceover lines for the unit. (See the last page of the thread.) Anyone got any ideas?

Okay, the 3.8 beta for DoWXP un-nerfs the assassin. I'm not beta testing, but the testers all say it has. So that's probably a good mod to keep an eye on. Deep striking Kasrkin are just a bonus.

Deep Striking Kasrkin?! HOLY SHIT!

Yep. Loading up the Valkyrie drop ships for a quick flanking maneuver is loads of fun. You can have a ready infantry reserve that can get anywhere on the map with ten seconds' notice. It's great.

Is it only the Kasrkin? Or the other infantry as well?!

Only Kasrkin, I'm afraid.

Well, still awesome. If only they could give those bastards infiltration ability too

Just put them in cover and they'll infiltrate. It's not always on, though; they need at least light cover.

Kasrkin can do that?!

You know, I have a rather strange dichotomy of opinions when it comes to DoWXP: I heartily enjoy the mod itself, but despise the fact that it ships with that abominable AI mod. For someone who can only rarely offer much of a challenge the vanilla AI on hard, playing with the AI mod is about as enjoyable as committing seppuku with a chainsword or re-enacting the war on the Eastern Front during WWI (as the doomed Russian Empire, of course). This is why I say, again, that I'll wait for DoW40k: Firestorm. I just can't bloody stand that AI mod!

Also, the odd camera sizes and tiny units look extremely awkward on my ancient laptop's 1024x768 monitor.

Dominus, I'm just using you as a handy example for my hypothesis, don't take the below personally.

I think a lot of the "OMB WTF unwarranted nerfs" are actually aimed towards higher end players who really know how to use and abuse certain units, which consequently screws lower end players. Dominus' complaint about the Whirlwind's is a good example. By his own admission, he can rarely offer a challenge to the vanilla AI on hard, whereas the "average" Automatch player for which the patches seem to be tuned for would be able to kick the crap out of the AI Mod on Insane in 1v1 (I know I can beat it 2 out of 3 games, and I know I get absolutely owned online still, so they're even better really).

The Whirlwind really did deserved every nerf it got. More damage than a Basilisk, greater area of effect, no friendly fire (most damning), 100% accuracy means that in 1v1 or 2v2, a SM player that can put it out early enough can literally turn the game around with smart usage. You can basically completely negate an enemy squad of your choice, be they in CC or in ranged combat with no danger to your own troops.

Just before the rotten tomatoes start flying my way, I play Random race so I want even handed fights, not one way traffic.

In my opinion, so far this patch has really benefitted Chaos, with Eldar and Ork getting overall buffs, SM and Tau coming out fairly even, and IG getting unjustly beaten around the head with the nerf stick. Necrons are still as imbalanced as ever, slightly toned down but still totally unfair. If you could play against yourself as another race, I'm fairly sure that the version of you who plays Necron would beat the other versions of you using other races.

Game dynamics wise, killing off the really early turret wasn't a bad idea except it screwed IG pretty hard. Lower building damage across the board for T3 units is good.

Still, lots and lots of things to be discovered and exploited in the patch yet. Who knows, somebody'll find something that might turn IG around completely...or not.