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I've noticed that the theories of Zelda timelines have always been hotly contested, so I've decided to put in my two cents away from GameFAQs.

Authorial timeline intentions from Shigeru Miyamoto are relatively scarce, and no intention of creating continuity was truly expressed until Ocarina of Time, which was specified as the "first game."

Given that no specific order exists, we will base the series based on what should be relatively unchanging: the geography of Hyrule.

Of course, that isn't strictly true. A number of games take place in alternative areas, and in The Wind Waker we learn that the Hyrule of later games is a completely seperate area from the first incarnations. However, this makes our job easier yet as we can effortlessly disseminate those games which take place before Phantom Hourglass (detailing the search for the new Hyrule) and those that take place afterwards.

First- The Minish Cap (First Link)

We can see in the GameFAQs map of the world of The Minish Cap, defining features such as Death Mountain are very scarce. Lake Hylia, however, appears in the lower right of the screen, which should not be true if the map is the same as the rest of the pre-Phantom Hourglass games. However, we can also see that others bodies of water exist in the southwest corner of the map, where Lake Hylia is in the other games. Perhaps the Lake was renamed, or perhaps the Zora took it for their own purposes (Minish Cap Lake Hylia is in a similar location to Zora's Domain in Ocarina to Time) and Hyrule was unwilling to concede the name and redubbed the former swamp.

Other reasons: it's made fairly clear in The Minish Cap that the game is the legend told at the beginning of Four Swords, dating The Minish Cap well before the start of Four Swords or The Wind Waker.

The Master Sword, a key element in almost every other game, is totally absent.

Hyrule seems untamed, even compared to the versions portrayed in other games. Humanity is largely holed up inside of Castle Town.

The Zora are totally absent in The Minish Cap, the only game not to feature some incarnation.

Second- Ocarina of Time (Second Link)

Third- Majora's Mask (Second Link)

Fourth- Twilight Princess (Third Link)

GEOGRAPHIC CHANGE- THE GREAT FLOOD

Fifth- The Wind Waker (Fourth Link)

Sixth- Phantom Hourglass (Fourth Link)

GEOGRAPHIC CHANGE- NEW HYRULE

Seventh- Four Swords (Fourth Link)

Eighth- Four Swords Adventures (Fourth Link)

Ninth- A Link to the Past (Fifth Link)

Tenth- Oracle of Seasons/ Oracle of Ages (Fifth Link)

Eleventh- Link's Awakening (Fifth Link)

Twelfth- The Legend of Zelda (Sixth Link)

Thirteenth- Adventures of Link (Sixth Link)

I'll update as time permits, please comment!

Isn't the Great flood post Ocarina of Time/Maora's Mask?

It is, I think I have it up there past OoT and MM

Ah, you're going the single timeline route? There's an alternate timeline theory you may have heard of, called the Split Timeline. You've probably read it on GameFAQs, but let me recap for those blessed with not having read a GameFAQs Zelda Timeline topic.

But first, let me make one thing clear. I HATE TIME TRAVELING! With that out of the way, here's what it's about.

We start as yours with The Minish Cap and progress to Ocarina of Time. The things turn ugly. In the end of Ocarina of Time, Link seals the evil Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. Then Zelda sends Link back in time, to the point just before Link draws out the Master Sword for the first time. In best Star Trek fashion, however, the timeline with Ganondorf sealed and no Link doesn't change. Instead the timeline splits, creating one where Link remains a child and goes on to Termina, and one where Adult Link does not exist.

Again, I hate time travel.

So we have two seperate timelines now.
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child)
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link)

Child Timeline
The direct sequel to OoT is Majora's Mask. Same Link, he saves Termina and that's the end of that Link's story.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child) -> Majora's Mask

This timeline isn't over yet, though. Next up is, a controversial choice, Twilight Princess. Why is this here? First of all, geography. TP Hyrule is OoT Hyrule. The Wii version is flipped, but the GameCube version matches exactly. Secondly, consider Ganondorf. He is not sealed anywhere before the game. He is tried for his crimes and attempted executed. THEN he gets the Triforce of Power and gets sent into the Twilight Realm, at least according to the Sages. Also, Ganondorf does not recognize the Master Sword or the green tunic, he might have remembered those if he'd been beat up by Adult Link in OoT. The game ends with Ganondorf dead. Not sealed. Dead. The End.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess

This ends the child timeline. Ganondorf is dead, Hyrule is saved, and Link may or may not get the girl. Yay!

Adult Timeline
Remeber, this has no Link at first, only a legend of a green clad hero who saved Hyrule once. Enter Ganondorf. With no Link, Ganondorf's second attempt of conquest goes unopposed, until the gods decide to flood Hyrule setting up The Wind Waker.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker

This version of Ganondorf DOES remember Link, the Hero of Time, recognizes the Master Sword and the green tunic. He has fought a Link before, but he doesn't remember TP Link and Midna. This is the Ganondorf who was sealed in Ocarina of Time. Wind Waker ends with Ganondorf petrified and Old Hyrule finally destroyed for good. The next game is a direct sequel, we don't know if Ganondorf is in it yet, but probably not. Phantom Hourglass is next.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass

We don't know what happens in PH, but it is assumed that Link and Tetra find a new continent and found a new Hyrule.

Now, which timeline does the rest of the series fit in? On one hand, we have Old Hyrule with a Master Sword, but a dead Ganondorf in the child timeline. On the other we have a sealed-in-stone Ganondorf in the adult timeline, but the Master Sword stuck underwater. Now, if Ganondorf is to recover, he'll need the Sword of Evil's Bane removed from his skull. How this happens is unclear, but the Master Sword is known to change position every once in a while. Maybe it's disappears and reappears? It's kind of hard to move somewhere for anyone not-chosen by it.

In all, geography trumps swords. So the series must go on the adult line. Next once known for sure is A Link to the Past. The intro talks about the "Imprisoning War" where seven sages sealed a great evil away. Could be Ocarina of Time. The game ends with Ganon defeated and the Triforce restored. If Ganon is dead or not, is unclear. Possibly. Also, "The Master Sword Sleeps. Forever."

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> A Link to the Past

Next up, is Link's Awakening. This is the same Link as ALttP Link. Since the game is mostly a dream, it can fit a lot of places, but the final boss is the shadow of ALttP Ganon. It must be the same Link.

Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> A Link to the Past -> Link's Awakening

Finally there's the original two. The Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link. Note the lack of a Master Sword here. Link explores the world, kills Ganondorf. His minions try to revive him, Link kills them, too. Finally, Ganondorf is dead, and any attempt to revive him has been twarted. Also, notice the town names in AoL. Those are the seven sages of OoT's names, so the Sages must have been known and awakened to have towns named after them, placing this game and the previous in the adult timeline. Also, Link gets the girl in this one. The End.

So let's review the timelines:
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Child) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess
Minish Cap -> Ocarina (Adult, no Link) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> A Link to the Past -> Link's Awakening -> Legend of Zelda -> Link's Adventure

We're missing out a few. The Four Swords titles and the Oracle titles. All we can say for sure is this:

Minish Cap -> Four Swords -> Four Swords Adventures

But they can be inserted many places in the timelines.

The Oracles can be placed anywhere, where the Triforce is gathered. Since Ganon holds the Triforce of Power when alive, he must be dead-ish. That's either after Twilight Princess, A Link to the Past (and by extension Link's Awakening) or Adventure of Link. The precense of Twinrova is a hint, though. The witches are dead in the adult timeline. So it could be set in Old Hyrule after Twilight Princess.

That... got a little long. Anyway, this is the basic idea behind the Split Timeline. It all depends on how time travel works in Hyrule, especially the rewind style Zelda used on Link in OoT and later Link in Majora's Mask. Maybe that's why Zelda had to re-teach the Song of Time to him? So he could rewind time like she did?

Now that I actually have an oppurtunity to type up a response, let me first state that I am a follower of the single timeline school of thought.

OoT/MM
LttP
OoS/OoA
TP
MC
FS/FSA
LoZ/AoL
WW/PH

'/' indicates the same Hero.

First up, OoT. The Gerudo King, Ganondorf, seizes the Triforce from the Sacred Realm, transforming it into the Evil Realm. Then Hero and the seven Sages banish him to the Evil Realm. The seal is intended to last forever. OoT also implies that prior to the events of the game, the Sacred Realm had not been visited since it was sealed off.

I don't think anyone will seriously argue that MM isn't OoT's direct sequel.

Next, LttP. It references the Imprisoning War, where a thief named Ganondorf steals the Triforce from the Golden Land, transforming it into the Dark World, before being sealed in the Dark World by seven Sages, ostensibly forever. Yes, following the single timeline stipulation, the LttP seal would be a paradox, since Zelda changes the timeline at the end of OoT. However, there is precedent of magic resisting shifts in time. For instance, the curse on the House of Skulltula can be broken by young Link, despite the fact that around half of the tokens can't even be collected until the future. He keeps the tokens when his soul is warped back to the past, meaning that the tokens don't exist in in normal time. Also, it is physically impossible to collect 24 Happy Masks in 3 days. The Couple's Mask alone takes up most a cycle, during which little else can be done. Link shouldn't be able surrender enough masks to the moon children to earn the Fierce Deity Mask from the Majora child. It goes to reason that if OoT is the Imprisoning War, then the Sages' seal also resists time shifts. There's no reason, after all, to assume Ganon somehow escaped and was subsequently resealed.

I put OoS/OoA immediately after LttP because the Triforce is reassembled at the end of LttP. Aside from LttP and OoS/OoA, the only other times where we know the Triforce has been in one piece are the first half of OoT and before the final battle in WW. Assuming the Trifore is complete in PH, OoS/OoA still can't follow it, because they take place in Holodrum and Labrynna, which are lands mentioned in MC. I'll follow up on that later. Also, OoS/OoA don't predate OoT, because prior to OoT the Triforce was still cut off from Hyrule by the seal on the Sacred Realm.

If anyone really wants to argue that OoS and OoA don't go together, go ahead.

TP is where it is really because it doesn't fit in too well anywhere else. Prior to TP, the Triforce was separated (the Sages imply it was well before Ganondorf's banishment to Twilight Realm), leaving only Wisdom accounted for. Since the Triforce is mostly in one piece during the preceding games, and its pieces are accounted for in following games (at most sealed away somewhere to keep Ganon from them), without more information the only place I can put TP is after OoS/OoA.

MC predates FS/FSA, since it provides an origin story for Vaati and the Four Sword. While it's possible that between MC and FS Vaati escaped and was resealed, we have no evidence of that. For the same reason that I place LttP after OoT/MM, I put MC right before FS/FSA.

The intro for FSA quite conclusively makes it a direct sequel to FS, with the same Link and Zelda.

FS/FSA before LoZ/AoL works because there is no mention of the Triforce in FSA, and LoZ Ganon doesn't start out with Power. There isn't any real backstory to LoZ Ganon, other than him showing up out of the blue and conquering Hyrule, so FSA Ganon's non-fatal defeat dovetails LoZ nicely.

As with MM, I don't think anyone will contest AoL's placement.

WW/PH take place after every other game set in Hyrule, for the simple reason that the people of the Great Sea don't even remember that they are the descendants of Hyrule. Even if a new Hyrule is founded afterward (either a new continent or the Great Sea recedes), there's still the problem of the landmarks being in the same places with the same names. Going back to OoS/OoA, because MC takes place before FS/FSA, which themselves take place before WW/PH, OoS/OoA must take place before WW. The Great Flood covered all but the tops of the highest mountains in Hyrule, which means much of the rest of the world has also been submerged. If the Hyrulians, who were the ones to call on the gods for salvation (delivered in the form of the Great Flood) don't remember their legacy, how can Labrynna and Holodrum possibly remember?

EDIT: corrected an incomplete sentence.

In my view, there has to be a split timeline - because the Hero of Time in WW vanished completely, never seen again. And remember, Link didn't actually travel in time the first time he went to the adult timeline, he was put in a form of stasis.
So by going back to the past he's already changed the future just by being there at all.

Also, WW has to take place after OoT/MM and before others, because Hyrule venerated the Hero of Time and only the Hero of Time. Any other Links are absent from their history. But few Zeldas can take place after WW because they'd have a history of something as big as a global flood.

Well, no. If you think back, the legend itself never actually refers to the Hero of Time by name. Ganondorf calls Link the Hero of Time reborn, but he's never really had real conversation with any of the Heroes and might not know their titles. Besides, it'd make more sense to think of a Hero as the reincarnation of the original Hero rather than the reincarnation of "Hero Reincarnation #5". The Great Deku Tree refers to the Hero of Time, but he's never spoken to the other Heroes, and would probably have a soft spot for the Kokiri-raised Hero of Time anyway.

Ghetto edit: I can't believe I omitted this, but another reason WW has to take place after everything else is that every game in Hyrule has had the same type of landmarks in the same general regions. Even if a new continent is found post PH or Forest Haven succeeds in joining the islands together into a new continent, the odds of that new continent having a volcano, a lake, and a desert all in the same places relative to each other as old Hyrule are astronomical.

Darth Yoshi wrote:Well, no. If you think back, the legend itself never actually refers to the Hero of Time by name. Ganondorf calls Link the Hero of Time reborn, but he's never really had real conversation with any of the Heroes and might not know their titles. Besides, it'd make more sense to think of a Hero as the reincarnation of the original Hero rather than the reincarnation of "Hero Reincarnation #5". The Great Deku Tree refers to the Hero of Time, but he's never spoken to the other Heroes, and would probably have a soft spot for the Kokiri-raised Hero of Time anyway.

Ghetto edit: I can't believe I omitted this, but another reason WW has to take place after everything else is that every game in Hyrule has had the same type of landmarks in the same general regions. Even if a new continent is found post PH or Forest Haven succeeds in joining the islands together into a new continent, the odds of that new continent having a volcano, a lake, and a desert all in the same places relative to each other as old Hyrule are astronomical.

Not necessarily- something that'd I'd meant to get into but hadn't yet is that Death Mountain and Lake Hylia either share a side of the map (A Link to the Past) or are on opposite sides (Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess.) That's going to be the basis for my timeline theory.

I would think that if Ganondorf does not remember Link and Zelda from OoT in TP, it would be almost certain evidence of a split timeline. Anyone remember his speech at the end of OoT, after he's defeated?

Guardsman Bass wrote:I would think that if Ganondorf does not remember Link and Zelda from OoT in TP, it would be almost certain evidence of a split timeline. Anyone remember his speech at the end of OoT, after he's defeated?

Indeed. Compare his speeches at the end of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, and they're definitely from two different people. In TP he almost completely ignores Link while in WW he's obsessive about what Zelda and Link's ancestors did to him. Furthermore, in WW he knows about the Master Sword as the "sword of evil's bane" and tries uniting the Triforce, while in TP Ganondorf dismisses it as merely an "impressive-looking sword" and never even points out that he has 2/3rds of the Triforce in his possession when he has Zelda's body.

If there's one time line, does he have amnesia for TP then suddenly remembers again later on for WW?

If you insist on an overall timeline, I think the dual timeline is superior. All that said though, the most practical way to think of it is probably as many little clusters of inter-related stories. Other wise, besides geography and name-dropping Nintendo doesn't seem to be interested in really tying these stories together.

Darth Yoshi wrote:Ghetto edit: I can't believe I omitted this, but another reason WW has to take place after everything else is that every game in Hyrule has had the same type of landmarks in the same general regions. Even if a new continent is found post PH or Forest Haven succeeds in joining the islands together into a new continent, the odds of that new continent having a volcano, a lake, and a desert all in the same places relative to each other as old Hyrule are astronomical.

As others have said, those locations tend to be in different places between games.
And then there are the races. Death Mountain is the home of the Gorons in OoT and TP, but there's no trace of them in LttP and others. Yet they appear in WW.

Then there's the Zoras. In OoT they're handsome dolphin like people. In LttP they're evil swamp monsters. In WW they're birds. Now, in WW a true OoT type Zora appears. But the swamp monsters are conspicuous in their absence. In a single timeline where WW is at the end, they would've had to go from dolphin people to monsters to dolphin people again and then birds. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

LMSx wrote:

Guardsman Bass wrote:I would think that if Ganondorf does not remember Link and Zelda from OoT in TP, it would be almost certain evidence of a split timeline. Anyone remember his speech at the end of OoT, after he's defeated?

Indeed. Compare his speeches at the end of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, and they're definitely from two different people. In TP he almost completely ignores Link while in WW he's obsessive about what Zelda and Link's ancestors did to him. Furthermore, in WW he knows about the Master Sword as the "sword of evil's bane" and tries uniting the Triforce, while in TP Ganondorf dismisses it as merely an "impressive-looking sword" and never even points out that he has 2/3rds of the Triforce in his possession when he has Zelda's body.

If there's one time line, does he have amnesia for TP then suddenly remembers again later on for WW?

You're all going about this as if there can be only one Ganondorf in a single timeline, which certainly isn't the case. FSA already establishes that there are multiple Ganondorfs, and TP simply reinforces that by introducing another one. After all, OoT Ganondorf has round ears, while TP Ganondorf has pointed ears. But seriously, the TP Sages didn't even know Ganondorf had Power until they botched his execution. OoT Ganondorf took Power with him into the Dark World, so the Sages should have known that he had Power if TP Ganondorf was OoT Ganondorf. Like I said, prior to TP the Triforce was lost, with only Wisdom still accounted for.

Ganondorf wouldn't need to reassemble the Triforce if, like in TP, he could conquer Hyrule on his own. The Triforce has always been simply a means to an end.

As for his comment about the Master Sword, I interpreted that line to mean Ganondorf was dismissing Link's abilities as a Hero, not the sword itself. After all, even the best weapons are useless in the hands of a novice.

But even assuming that TP Ganondorf didn't know anything about the Master Sword, there still isn't a problem, because WW Ganondorf isn't TP Ganondorf. If anything, WW Ganondorf would be OoT Ganondorf's soul in FSA Ganondorf's body. At some point before FSA, Ganon was sealed into his trident, and was released after FSA Ganondorf claimed the trident as his own. We know that Ganondorf can possess people, so it's not farfetched to say that's what happened to FSA Ganondorf.

If you insist on an overall timeline, I think the dual timeline is superior. All that said though, the most practical way to think of it is probably as many little clusters of inter-related stories. Other wise, besides geography and name-dropping Nintendo doesn't seem to be interested in really tying these stories together.

Multiple timelines would necessitate the creation of a new parallel dimension for each timeline. That makes things...needlessly complicated.

Cao Cao wrote:As others have said, those locations tend to be in different places between games.
And then there are the races. Death Mountain is the home of the Gorons in OoT and TP, but there's no trace of them in LttP and others. Yet they appear in WW.

Not so. Rotating the LttP map 45 degrees clockwise lines up Death Mountain (northeast), Lake Hylia (south), and the Haunted Wasteland (west) with their OoT locations. Even the Master Sword is in the same place (north).

As far as the Gorons go, Death Mountain is only one summit in a larger mountain range. Just because they're known for living on Death Mountain doesn't mean it's the only place they live. Besides, the Gorons do appear in MC and FSA.

Then there's the Zoras. In OoT they're handsome dolphin like people. In LttP they're evil swamp monsters. In WW they're birds. Now, in WW a true OoT type Zora appears. But the swamp monsters are conspicuous in their absence. In a single timeline where WW is at the end, they would've had to go from dolphin people to monsters to dolphin people again and then birds. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Prior to TP, that would've been a valid point. However, in TP we see Zora guards with helmets that make them look more fish-like. Considering that the 2-d Zoras attack you, they're likely overzealous guards trying to protect the waterways from encroachers.

When you say multiple Ganondorfs, do you mean something akin to the way multiple Links emerge? Like, individual histories and routes to power, but after a certain point they assume the mantle. Just to be clear I'm arguing that there is one Ganondorf, but he's split like branches from a tree- he's emerged from OoT with two sets of experiences, but one common base.

[Edited]* The dual timeline theory simply feels more elegant, given how naturally it answers the discrepancies between WW and TP, and ties into Wind Waker's intro. You answered why the Seven Sages seal from OoT might apply even in the past, but what do you think happened to the adult world that Link left behind?


*removed an argument I no longer agreed with

Darth Yoshi wrote:Ghetto edit: I can't believe I omitted this, but another reason WW has to take place after everything else is that every game in Hyrule has had the same type of landmarks in the same general regions. Even if a new continent is found post PH or Forest Haven succeeds in joining the islands together into a new continent, the odds of that new continent having a volcano, a lake, and a desert all in the same places relative to each other as old Hyrule are astronomical.

Or, if you interpret the King's wish in a certain way, the new Hyrule is the same place as the old Hyrule. You see, the Great Sea "washes" the land of Hyrule by falling on it (weight of the water crushing buildings, changing landscapes and all that) and then evaporates to give the children a "future". After all, the possibilities of there being a landmass sufficiently big to be a "new Hyrule" in a post-Flood world are somewhat small, I reckon.

I'll post more later.

LMSx wrote:When you say multiple Ganondorfs, do you mean something akin to the way multiple Links emerge? Like, individual histories and routes to power, but after a certain point they assume the mantle. Just to be clear I'm arguing that there is one Ganondorf, but he's split like branches from a tree- he's emerged from OoT with two sets of experiences, but one common base.

[Edited]* The dual timeline theory simply feels more elegant, given how naturally it answers the discrepancies between WW and TP, and ties into Wind Waker's intro. You answered why the Seven Sages seal from OoT might apply even in the past, but what do you think happened to the adult world that Link left behind?


*removed an argument I no longer agreed with

I think by mutliple Ganondorfs he just means that there's one Ganondorf in each parallel timeline.

Elaro wrote:Or, if you interpret the King's wish in a certain way, the new Hyrule is the same place as the old Hyrule. You see, the Great Sea "washes" the land of Hyrule by falling on it (weight of the water crushing buildings, changing landscapes and all that) and then evaporates to give the children a "future". After all, the possibilities of there being a landmass sufficiently big to be a "new Hyrule" in a post-Flood world are somewhat small, I reckon.

I'll post more later.

That still doesn't explain the names. The people of the Great Sea don't even remember that they are the descendants of Hyrule; how do you expect them to remember the names of the major landmarks? As unlikely as a new continent is, it's even more unlikely for them to conveniently give the landmarks the same names they had pre-flood.

And I notice you contradicted yourself there. If the weight of the water changes the landscape, then the landmarks obviously would be changed as well. The climate changes from such a catastrophe might even eradicate the desert.

LMSx wrote:When you say multiple Ganondorfs, do you mean something akin to the way multiple Links emerge? Like, individual histories and routes to power, but after a certain point they assume the mantle. Just to be clear I'm arguing that there is one Ganondorf, but he's split like branches from a tree- he's emerged from OoT with two sets of experiences, but one common base.

I mean that within a single timeline (because I'm arguing single timeline here) there are multiple Ganondorfs. So yes, like Link. We have, after all, a minimum of two. FSA Ganondorf starts out as a separate entity from OoT Ganondorf, and I'm saying TP Ganondorf is separate from them.

[Edited]* The dual timeline theory simply feels more elegant, given how naturally it answers the discrepancies between WW and TP, and ties into Wind Waker's intro. You answered why the Seven Sages seal from OoT might apply even in the past, but what do you think happened to the adult world that Link left behind?

It never happened. In a timeline where Ganon is sealed pretty much immediately after seizing the Triforce, there would be no need to free the temples and infiltrate Ganon's Castle, because the temples wouldn't be taken over and Ganon's Castle would never be built. Essentially, the Imprisoning War ends with a whimper, not a bang. Link opens the Sacred Realm and gets caught in stasis, Ganondorf seizes the Triforce, then Link wakes up right after and closes the Door of Time, trapping Ganondorf in the Dark World, where he stays until Agahnims breaks the seal.

Edit: Crap. Posted right before me...

Qwerty 42 wrote:I think by mutliple Ganondorfs he just means that there's one Ganondorf in each parallel timeline.

No, he means that there is only one timeline, but multiple Ganondorfs in it. Obviously, there'd have to be multiple Ganondorfs in a multiple timeline theory. Otherwise it would be indeed strange, with a time jumping Ganondorf...


And Yoshi, that is an interesting way of going about the problem. Assuming multiple Ganondorfs instead of messing about with multiple timelines and stuff. It seems that it has always been assumed by fans that there is only one Ganondorf. TP really casts that assumption into doubt though, as he doesn't seem to know anything about anyone, and no-one seems to know anything about him.

Though it reminds me of the "multiple Dracula"-theory of Castlevania (yes, fans really had one ), I think it makes a lot of sense. One problem, however, is that the intro "legend" from tWW gets even more confusing, as it references the Hero of Time. Though I don't remember if it ever specifically says that Ganondorf actually escaped from the Evil Realm, so I suppose it might work.

Dooey Jo wrote:And Yoshi, that is an interesting way of going about the problem. Assuming multiple Ganondorfs instead of messing about with multiple timelines and stuff. It seems that it has always been assumed by fans that there is only one Ganondorf. TP really casts that assumption into doubt though, as he doesn't seem to know anything about anyone, and no-one seems to know anything about him.

Part of the problem is that people aren't all that familiar with FSA. The desert level makes it quite clear that there is more than one Ganondorf, because a exiled Gerudo named Ganondorf sneaks into the Desert Temple and steals Ganon's trident, becoming the new Ganon.

Though it reminds me of the "multiple Dracula"-theory of Castlevania (yes, fans really had one ), I think it makes a lot of sense. One problem, however, is that the intro "legend" from tWW gets even more confusing, as it references the Hero of Time. Though I don't remember if it ever specifically says that Ganondorf actually escaped from the Evil Realm, so I suppose it might work.

I'll have to check again, but I don't think the legend actually refers to the Hero of Time by name. Ganondorf, meanwhile, is simply said to have swept over the land one day, which could mean anything.

Darth Yoshi wrote:That still doesn't explain the names. The people of the Great Sea don't even remember that they are the descendants of Hyrule; how do you expect them to remember the names of the major landmarks? As unlikely as a new continent is, it's even more unlikely for them to conveniently give the landmarks the same names they had pre-flood.

Well, it's probable that some inscriptions survived the Great Fallling of the Sea, so it's likely the new inhabitants of Hyrule named those landmarks by looking at the inscriptions. Or, there is the less likely possibility that they named the landmarks the same way their ancestors did because they had similar reasons to name them that way. "Death Mountain" -> people die in that mountain. "Zora Fountain" -> There are Zoras in that fountain. Etc. Of course, there may be a little of both.

Also, I think that not all inhabitants of the Great Sea fail to remember that their ancestors lived in Hyrule. The Koroks certainly remember. There's a hint that the Rito might remember ("before our ancestors evolved wings", Medli, Dragon Roost Cavern).

And I notice you contradicted yourself there. If the weight of the water changes the landscape, then the landmarks obviously would be changed as well. The climate changes from such a catastrophe might even eradicate the desert.

OK, I wasn't being clear. By "changing landscapes", I meant relatively minor changes, like Death Mountain being flatter and wider. And the destruction of the pre-Flood buildings. And other changes to the landscape that we see between OoT and ALttP.

But to me, the greatest proof of the OoT-WW-ALttP order is the Imprisoning War account from ALttP. It fits in part with OoT, but it can also fit the pre-Flood events hinted at in WW. This can be explained if scholars of ALttP's time finding partial writings of ancient authors, kinda like archeologists finding ancient Greek writings. They would, of course, concatenate stories which contain the same character. So, when they found parchments containing phrases like "Ganon was conquering the entire land of Hyrule" (which would be a pre-Flood event) and "the Seven Sages sealed Ganon away" (OoT), they put the events together in history. Or, the IW account is an amalgamation of the legends pertaining to each event. Take your pick.

It never happened. In a timeline where Ganon is sealed pretty much immediately after seizing the Triforce, there would be no need to free the temples and infiltrate Ganon's Castle, because the temples wouldn't be taken over and Ganon's Castle would never be built. Essentially, the Imprisoning War ends with a whimper, not a bang. Link opens the Sacred Realm and gets caught in stasis, Ganondorf seizes the Triforce, then Link wakes up right after and closes the Door of Time, trapping Ganondorf in the Dark World, where he stays until Agahnims breaks the seal.

You're arguing single timeline, right? Then explain how WW Ganondorf explicitely references the Hero of Time, when according to you they've never met.

Yeah, the problem with the multiple Ganondorf theory is that WW Ganondorf clearly is the same one from OoT. Since OoT is the beginning or near enough to it and WW has to be the end in a single timeline that doesn't make any sense.

Elaro wrote:Well, it's probable that some inscriptions survived the Great Fallling of the Sea, so it's likely the new inhabitants of Hyrule named those landmarks by looking at the inscriptions. Or, there is the less likely possibility that they named the landmarks the same way their ancestors did because they had similar reasons to name them that way. "Death Mountain" -> people die in that mountain. "Zora Fountain" -> There are Zoras in that fountain. Etc. Of course, there may be a little of both.

In the time it takes for an entire people to forget the name of the country they once lived in, the written and spoken languages would have changed to the point that any eroded inscriptions that survived the Flood would be useless. It would be like expecting medieval scholars to understand cuneiform, but worse.

Also, I think that not all inhabitants of the Great Sea fail to remember that their ancestors lived in Hyrule. The Koroks certainly remember. There's a hint that the Rito might remember ("before our ancestors evolved wings", Medli, Dragon Roost Cavern).

The Koroks are insular—much like their Kokiri ancestors—and are irrelevant to the collective memory of the Hylians.

The ancient knowledge of the Rito is fading, and soon enough they will be irrelevant to the Hylian memory as well.

OK, I wasn't being clear. By "changing landscapes", I meant relatively minor changes, like Death Mountain being flatter and wider. And the destruction of the pre-Flood buildings. And other changes to the landscape that we see between OoT and ALttP.

How convenient. Why the hell would such a traumatic event only superficially change the landscape? If you invoke the gods, I counter with the fact that the gods are just as likely to leave the landscape unchanged.

But to me, the greatest proof of the OoT-WW-ALttP order is the Imprisoning War account from ALttP. It fits in part with OoT, but it can also fit the pre-Flood events hinted at in WW. This can be explained if scholars of ALttP's time finding partial writings of ancient authors, kinda like archeologists finding ancient Greek writings. They would, of course, concatenate stories which contain the same character. So, when they found parchments containing phrases like "Ganon was conquering the entire land of Hyrule" (which would be a pre-Flood event) and "the Seven Sages sealed Ganon away" (OoT), they put the events together in history. Or, the IW account is an amalgamation of the legends pertaining to each event. Take your pick.

The SNES version of the Imprisoning War only differs from OoT in that the Hero of Time is never named. If the GBA port says otherwise, I'd like screens or quotes. But anyway, the fact is that Ganon is sealed away into the Dark World before LttP. We know he was sealed away in OoT. Occam's Razor demands that you prove Ganon escaped and was then sealed again into the Dark World between OoT and LttP.

You're arguing single timeline, right? Then explain how WW Ganondorf explicitely references the Hero of Time, when according to you they've never met.

Now you're just being silly. Assuming that Power didn't protect OoT Ganondorf's memory of the original future, he does meet Link, because right after Ganondorf chases Zelda out of Castle Town, he confronts Link. That would be before the point where the timeline changes. More to the point, Ganondorf would know about the Hero of Time, because he was quite clearly familiar with the legends before making his bid for the Triforce (in fact, that knowledge was what drove him to seek it).

If you're saying that I'm wrong because otherwise WW Ganondorf wouldn't be OoT Ganondorf and thus shouldn't know the Hero of Time, WW Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf in FSA Ganondorf's body. We know OoT Ganondorf can possess people, since that's what he did to Agahnim at some point.

And again, it's more sensible to refer to any given Hero as the "xth reincarnation of the Hero of Time", rather than the "reincarnation of the (x-1)th reincarnation of the Hero of Time".

Just a quick question that doesn't pretain too much to the storyline, but what's "FSA"?

Darth Yoshi wrote:In the time it takes for an entire people to forget the name of the country they once lived in, the written and spoken languages would have changed to the point that any eroded inscriptions that survived the Flood would be useless. It would be like expecting medieval scholars to understand cuneiform, but worse.

And sure enough the Hylian script does change between Ocarina and Wind Waker (quite significantly in fact).

Darth Yoshi wrote:Now you're just being silly. Assuming that Power didn't protect OoT Ganondorf's memory of the original future, he does meet Link, because right after Ganondorf chases Zelda out of Castle Town, he confronts Link. That would be before the point where the timeline changes. More to the point, Ganondorf would know about the Hero of Time, because he was quite clearly familiar with the legends before making his bid for the Triforce (in fact, that knowledge was what drove him to seek it).

He barely glances at Link, while on his horse, while his attention is focused on chasing Zelda, at night, in the middle of a storm. That does not constitute a confrontation.

If you're saying that I'm wrong because otherwise WW Ganondorf wouldn't be OoT Ganondorf and thus shouldn't know the Hero of Time, WW Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf in FSA Ganondorf's body. We know OoT Ganondorf can possess people, since that's what he did to Agahnim at some point.

I'm pretty sure Aganhim was always Ganon in disguise.

Erik von Nein wrote:Just a quick question that doesn't pretain too much to the storyline, but what's "FSA"?

I believe it's Four Swords Adventure, a multiplayer game that was part of the Link to the Past port for the GBA. In my view, it's canonicity is debatable.

Erik von Nein wrote:Just a quick question that doesn't pretain too much to the storyline, but what's "FSA"?

Four Swords Adventures, a GC multiplayer Zelda game.