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I've been dead bored lately waiting for a decent new RPG to come out, like Mass Effect, Dragon Age...etc. After digging through my collection I pulled out the legendary Baldur's Gate. I re-installed and decided to download BG TUTU and the NPC pack. The former which puts BG1 into the BG2 engine with class and rule updates, in addition to the avatars, paper dolls and spell effects, the latter gives the NPC's similiar depth that they have in BG2, with banters, interjections and even romances. After only a few hours of playing I found myself smiling quite widely with not only nostalgia, but plain old fun. Baldur's Gate, along with Fallout were the first REAL RPG's I'd ever played, as I really don't think the Final Fantasy series are true RPGs. Bioware and Black Isles RPG's really helped create a love for the genre and for well crafted and executed stories with interesting and fun NPC's who existed to be more than just fodder for monsters. I realise I am gushing a bit from the nostalgia, but I'm interested in knowing how it stacks up in everyone elses eyes.

It's still my favorite RPG.

I thought it was rubbish. Unsurprising, really.

Not as bad as NWN and not as okay as KOTOR.

Though it may be heresy, I still think BG1 was better than BG2. If anyone ever said you couldn't have too many hours of gameplay, I'd point directly at BG2 as a standard rebuttal. BG1 may not have had all the characterization and cool stuff, but at least you could see it through in a couple of weeks and get on with your life.

Stark wrote:I thought it was rubbish. Unsurprising, really.

Not as bad as NWN and not as okay as KOTOR.

Vanilla NWN was a great idea on paper. Take table-top D&D and put it on the computer. The campaign they packaged it with however was little more than saying..."Look at what you can do if you use the toolkit!" Rather than giving us an actual story worthy of Bioware's talents.

As for KOTOR, over the years I've actually grown to like it LESS compared to Bioware's other outings. It's far more linear, and aside from HK-47 and Jolee Bindo, fairly devoid of really interesting party members.
KOTOR II was a step in the right direction in a lot of ways, but Obsidian screwed the pooch by delievering it before it was done.

That's the taste difference, right there. I thought HK-47 was puerile, juvenile bullshit, one of the weakest parts of KOTOR. My eyes nearly rolled out of my head during the 'awesome' 'hardcore' stuff.

I'm not as interested in playing a book than the flexibility to do my own thing, which is why I'm not a fan of Bioware's tightly-plotted dodgey fantasy work. KOTOR has problems (not least 'let's transfer our D&D system into SW with as few changes as possible') but I found the story less 'silly fantasy'. I'd agree that KOTOR 2 would probably have been the better of the two had it been finished, but again being forced to play out a (staggeringly predictable) story isn't my cup of tea at all.

Bah, RPGwise nothing beats Ultima VI.

To this day, the Baldur's Gate series remains my biggest single timesink in the history of my life, not counting sleeping and going to school. I loved it then, and every few years I go back and bathe in the warm glow of nostalgia. Both are still some of my favorite storylines, and NPC, romance and Imoen mods just keep it good enough for me to enjoy repeatedly.

KotOR was an amazing game, and the twist in the middle of the game is still remembered as one of the most unexpected I've ever come across. My suprise is still palpable.

KotOR 2 had the lookings of being even better than the first in every way, but that illusion faltered about halfway through the game, when the story seams started to fray into tangled, unfinished threads. I blame Lucasarts for wanting a christmas release. Oh well. Team gizka looks like they'll take care of us, at least a little.

I've never actually played the original Baldur's Gate, although I love Baldur's Gate II, especially when it's loaded out with NPC and Banter and Romance mods, it's just all sorts of fun.

I actually enjoyed the original NWN campaign, although it easily could have been better. I prefered Hordes of the Underdark, though. I only finished both of them once, though, since they didn't draw me in the way Baldur's Gate did. The online play was excellent though.

KoTOR... oh, where to begin with my treasured KoTOR. I've finished the original AT LEAST ten times. Every now and then, I just get the urge to go back and play through it again. I love that game. KoTOR 2 I've finished a handful of times, but I'm probably not going to play it again until Team Gizka finish their work and restore the craploads of content that are missing from the game.

BG1/BG2 were competent, but not amazing, and yes they did take a very long time to play through (Throne of Bahl in particular was starting to get very by-the-numbers). Planescape Torment used the same engine but with a more interesting and richly detailed plot, characters and setting. I really wish the fans would make mods for that, instead of BG2 which is already big enough, but I suppose it would be more difficult to stay up to the quality standards of the rest of the game.

Baldur's Gate II is the better than I for one simple reason: all of the "didn't I kill you before?" moments. Those are so priceless. Oh and the higher level spells are more fun too. My personal favourite? Horrid Wilting. You don't even need to read the spell description, the thing sounds like something only an evil bastard would enjoy using.

Those games stole many hours of my life. Great games. Jan Jansen and Minsc were my favorites

I agree with Starglider. BG2 was fun...Throne of Bhaal was long with the utterly pointless "I am the UBER GODLING!!!!" power leveling and critters. Nothing spectacular in the end. Though for me Baldur's Gate 1 was a fucking bore. The real downside to each? The combat system was way too abusive. Some class combinations made your character undefeatable, or a party all unto himself. The only challenges became the Demi Lich in BG2, or the unaltered version of Demogorgon.

Storywise, Torment was better then all of them. Combat was the same, but at least there wasn't as much as BG1.

KoTOR, I enjoy...even number 2. Because of the sheer wank of power leveling. KoTOR 1, I got a light party that made me regret trying Dark side. KoTOR 2, I was a level 70 Jedi God who could be Wankatine Mark I.

Storywise, the twist was good...but most the characters were practically spunky sidekick, love interest, sarcastic yabboo, dumbass. The anatagonists of both became bad reminders of evil apparently ramping intelligence down as you got closer to the true mastermind.

Minsc, still is my fave. Honest in some many wrong ways.

How did you guys manage to reach lvl 70 before finishing the game in Kotor II?

I always ended up wrapping up the storylines before I hit 30, and I had no trouble at all mowing my way through opponents with force storm, death field, and master flurry (on a lightside Sentinel / Weaponmaster build).

Matt Huang wrote:How did you guys manage to reach lvl 70 before finishing the game in Kotor II?

I always ended up wrapping up the storylines before I hit 30, and I had no trouble at all mowing my way through opponents with force storm, death field, and master flurry (on a lightside Sentinel / Weaponmaster build).

Easy.

In the Korriban tombs, there is a lone dead Jedi and out pop a number of Sith Critter Crocs. Kill them, examine the guy again, and there ya go. I've heard tales you can flip over your level counter and all sorts of bullshit if you go at it long enough. I just used 70 as an arbitrary number for myself.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Matt Huang wrote:How did you guys manage to reach lvl 70 before finishing the game in Kotor II?

I always ended up wrapping up the storylines before I hit 30, and I had no trouble at all mowing my way through opponents with force storm, death field, and master flurry (on a lightside Sentinel / Weaponmaster build).

Easy.

In the Korriban tombs, there is a lone dead Jedi and out pop a number of Sith Critter Crocs. Kill them, examine the guy again, and there ya go. I've heard tales you can flip over your level counter and all sorts of bullshit if you go at it long enough. I just used 70 as an arbitrary number for myself.

That part is particularly satisfying if you are going Dark Side with Force Storm and Death Field. I 'opened' that guy a shit-ton of times in a row so that the room filled with Hssyssiss, or however you spell it, and shredded fifty or so at a time.

I have Baldur's Gate 2 somewhere...got it from a friend who needed to clear out space in his CD rack. Wasn't it based on 2nd Edition DnD, though?

I don't know. BG did nothing for me. Torment was much better; a vastly different story from the normal fantasy stuff, and of course, it was Planescape, and earned credit just for getting so much of the setting right.

Of course, being so story-centric, I suspect Torment is not high on the Stark Meter Of Good.

Molyneux wrote:I have Baldur's Gate 2 somewhere...got it from a friend who needed to clear out space in his CD rack. Wasn't it based on 2nd Edition DnD, though?

baldur's gate 1 was streamlined AD&D 2E. Baldur's gate 2 was a confusing amalgam of 2E and 3.0 that sort made it DnD2.5.

Stark wrote:I'm not as interested in playing a book than the flexibility to do my own thing, which is why I'm not a fan of Bioware's tightly-plotted dodgey fantasy work.

SirNitram wrote:Of course, being so story-centric, I suspect Torment is not high on the Stark Meter Of Good.

Presumably 'Frontier' and/or 'First Encounters' are high up, if indeed anything can be.

Although I strongly recommend Ragnarok for seriously retro open ended fantasy gaming goodness. It has just enough plot to be cool, while being completely open ended in how (and if) you achieve any of the goals. For a 1992 game there's an amazing amount of different stuff you can do with it; I must've played through it about ten times in my mid teens. It's decently challenging as well, but as consistently irritating about it as Nethack (Nethack has lots of crap in there seemingly for the sake of it - all the crazy stuff in Ragnarok is there for a reason).



It's freeware these days.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Matt Huang wrote:How did you guys manage to reach lvl 70 before finishing the game in Kotor II?

I always ended up wrapping up the storylines before I hit 30, and I had no trouble at all mowing my way through opponents with force storm, death field, and master flurry (on a lightside Sentinel / Weaponmaster build).

Easy.

In the Korriban tombs, there is a lone dead Jedi and out pop a number of Sith Critter Crocs. Kill them, examine the guy again, and there ya go. I've heard tales you can flip over your level counter and all sorts of bullshit if you go at it long enough. I just used 70 as an arbitrary number for myself.

Oh, I know that. What I meant was how do you not get bored out of your mind grinding that single spot over and over again.

SirNitram wrote: Of course, being so story-centric, I suspect Torment is not high on the Stark Meter Of Good.

I've never played Planescape, actually. It didn't appear any different to BG so I doubt I gave it much time back in the day, but everyone seems to like it - even those with no time for BG.

Ghost Rider wrote:In the Korriban tombs, there is a lone dead Jedi and out pop a number of Sith Critter Crocs. Kill them, examine the guy again, and there ya go. I've heard tales you can flip over your level counter and all sorts of bullshit if you go at it long enough. I just used 70 as an arbitrary number for myself.

I'm pretty sure there's a patch somewhere (I think I got it through Team Gizka, may be wrong) that correct this glitch, along with the thing where you can break Hanharr's mind over and over again until his INT underflows and on top of his combat prowess he suddenly has more skill points than Bao-Dur and T3 combined.

Ghost Rider wrote:The only challenges became the Demi Lich in BG2, or the unaltered version of Demogorgon.

Demi Lich is ridiculously easy. Turns out the Slayer is immune to Imprisonment and resistant to a lot of shit. Even if you PC is utter suck at melee combat, like my Sorceror, he eats the Demi Lich for breakfast.

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:The only challenges became the Demi Lich in BG2, or the unaltered version of Demogorgon.

Demi Lich is ridiculously easy. Turns out the Slayer is immune to Imprisonment and resistant to a lot of shit. Even if you PC is utter suck at melee combat, like my Sorceror, he eats the Demi Lich for breakfast.

I almost always outright refused to transform into the Slayer. Am I the only person who did this? I guess I get into the roleplaying aspect of it a bit too much, because on the rare instances I did transform into the Slayer, it made me feel kind of... well, dirty.

And yet at the same time, sometimes I'd get pissed off with something, save my game, and lay waste to my entire party with as many big, destructive spells as I could hurl out at them.