Justifiable Piracy

[Admiral Valdemar]

I've been thinking lately about ways in which the media industry has screwed us over and then gasped in horror as piracy took off rather than died down.

The one example I'm concerned about now, is my brother's recent purchase of the movie 1408 on DVD. Now, we all know they love adding bonus features and different cuts to the movies nowadays, because we love to be inundated with crap we don't care about. What's different here, though, and what shocked me a bit, is that this DVD has an alternate ending. Okay, no real shock there. But it totally replaces the original ending and this is an ending you have NOT seen at the cinema. And you can't buy the original cut of the movie. At all.

Let me restate that: You're paying for something you haven't seen, when expecting to have the same damn movie you saw at the cinema. It's like showing Star Wars at the cinema, but only allowing the special editions to be sold (I'm well aware Lucas tried that, but he gave you the choice more than enough times to get the original cut too).

Does anyone else get pissed off with this rampant idiocy? I just want what I saw and know I loved. I don't want to pay, again, for something that is most certainly not what I enjoyed and gave me incentive to purchase.

Other examples of this bullshit appreciated. Forcing you to buy extras with the set is one thing; forcing you to only be able to buy something that isn't quite what you expected is another.

[Dartzap]

Was it more expensive than a normal DVD and extras set?

[Admiral Valdemar]

No. This is the only copy you can buy in this country. You can get the original in the US, but that's beside the point. I want the bloody original choice here too, not to have to buy a multi-region DVD player (which the industry also frowns upon because they invented DVD region codes) and a separate copy of the movie.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

When trying to get the old Godzilla films on DVD you run into a similar problem. For starters almost none of them except the original have been released in Region 2 format. That's not insurmountable as you can always order them from the States and use a naughty region-unlocked player, but there's a further problem; they only sell the American 'localised' versions of the films on DVD in the States.

You see when the Godzilla films were originally being localised for America they underwent extreme editing. In many of them the entire story was rewritten and all the character scenes were re-shot with American actors. These new editions were, without fail, atrocious. However that's all you can now get if you want Godzilla on DVD. You could, if you are in Region 2, just order the actual Japanese Godzilla DVDs - however those are unlikely to include an English subtitle track, so they are fairly useless.

Other films also simply have not been released in Region 2. The Addams Family (film) is one fairly prominent example, though bizarrely the sequel was released on Region 2 DVD. the BBC is also quite slow at bringing certain things to DVD - the comedy show "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" was only released last year in any format.

[Phantasee]

Clearly, the EBC is full of Pirates.

[Big Orange]

What I find most annoying is how aggressive music copyright is totally destroying the DVD publishing of popular television shows - Sony promised to publish Dark Skies early last year, then about six months later they cancelled it on the grounds the music royalties were "too expensive".

But the DS DVD being cancelled was for Region 1 so far, buy I'm not sure about Region 2, where it's not so bad. For example they kept some commentary track for Doctor Who on Region 2 DVD, but cut them out on Region 1 because people were singing licensed music.

No sign of the 1996 Doctor Who TV movie on Region 1 either. Also Ally McBeal has been available for years on VHS and DVD in Europe and Australia for years, but weirdly there has been absolutely nothing about Ally McBeal DVDs on Region 1 for the past ten years.

[Flagg]

I've been thinking lately about ways in which the media industry has screwed us over and then gasped in horror as piracy took off rather than died down.

The one example I'm concerned about now, is my brother's recent purchase of the movie 1408 on DVD. Now, we all know they love adding bonus features and different cuts to the movies nowadays, because we love to be inundated with crap we don't care about. What's different here, though, and what shocked me a bit, is that this DVD has an alternate ending. Okay, no real shock there. But it totally replaces the original ending and this is an ending you have NOT seen at the cinema. And you can't buy the original cut of the movie. At all.

Let me restate that: You're paying for something you haven't seen, when expecting to have the same damn movie you saw at the cinema. It's like showing Star Wars at the cinema, but only allowing the special editions to be sold (I'm well aware Lucas tried that, but he gave you the choice more than enough times to get the original cut too).

Does anyone else get pissed off with this rampant idiocy? I just want what I saw and know I loved. I don't want to pay, again, for something that is most certainly not what I enjoyed and gave me incentive to purchase.

Other examples of this bullshit appreciated. Forcing you to buy extras with the set is one thing; forcing you to only be able to buy something that isn't quite what you expected is another.

Actually, that was the original ending. Test audiences didn't like it so they re-shot a happy ending for the theatrical release.

And after reading a synopsis of the happy ending, I'm glad I only saw the director's cut.

[Pu-239]

Don't video players on Linux ignore regions? (Yeah, besides the point I know and still technically illegal in US)

[Admiral Valdemar]

Actually, that was the original ending. Test audiences didn't like it so they re-shot a happy ending for the theatrical release.

And after reading a synopsis of the happy ending, I'm glad I only saw the director's cut.

I'm aware the film had heavy editing and either way, I didn't really care for the film as much as my brother does, and he was fond of the original cut in its entirety. Whether the cut they scrapped for the theatrical and brought back for the DVD is superior is academic; the one my bro wanted is not part of the product he paid for and there's no way he can see that without going about ignoring another layer of anti-piracy protection the likes of Hollywood and the MPAA added to their repertoire.

The whole thing stinks and I can say Hollywood lost their ethical integrity long before their artistic.

[brianeyci]

I'm pretty sure a spade is still a spade. I don't see the point in justifying piracy. Either do it or don't.

I think Stark living in AU would have the same attitude. I'll be honest: I find it kind of silly to use the word "ethics" alongside anything to do with pleasure. It makes light of real ethical issues that really matter. I understand when you buy a product you expect the product to be honest, but if editors can put extras into DVD they can certainly take things out of DVD.

[Uraniun235]

Don't video players on Linux ignore regions? (Yeah, besides the point I know and still technically illegal in US)

I hear you can get players for Windows and Mac OS that will do the same thing.

[Pu-239]

Well, yeah, MPlayer and VLC and the libraries they use are cross platform- what I meant was the "standard" Linux players ignore region encoding (afaik, PowerDVD, etc on Windows won't ignore region encoding, and nobody uses LinDVD on Linux ), and I believe Valdemar is already using *nix. I'm not that ignorant

[Anguirus]

You see when the Godzilla films were originally being localised for America they underwent extreme editing. In many of them the entire story was rewritten and all the character scenes were re-shot with American actors. These new editions were, without fail, atrocious. However that's all you can now get if you want Godzilla on DVD.

Have you tried getting any Region 1 Godzilla films lately? Nearly all of the original versions of the Godzilla series, with English subtitles, are commercially available in the U.S. either through Sony or through the excellent Classic Media releases. In fact, all of the Classic Media DVDs include both the Japanese and American versions of the film, a commentary track, and a documentary.

The massive re-writing that you describe was only done for the first three Godzilla movies, and the original versions of those are available through Classic Media with the exception of King Kong vs. Godzilla, which is complicated legally. The original, rather witty version of this film is not available in the U.S. at all (I had to see it in installments on YouTube), and the butchered American version is on a crap DVD from Universal.

[Darth Wong]

I'm pretty sure a spade is still a spade. I don't see the point in justifying piracy. Either do it or don't.

I think Stark living in AU would have the same attitude. I'll be honest: I find it kind of silly to use the word "ethics" alongside anything to do with pleasure. It makes light of real ethical issues that really matter. I understand when you buy a product you expect the product to be honest, but if editors can put extras into DVD they can certainly take things out of DVD.

What the fuck kind of ridiculous black/white fallacy is this? There is no such thing as "ethics" for subjects that aren't really important to society?

The fact is that you generally don't have return rights for a DVD that you're unhappy with, unlike most products. And when you buy a DVD, there is an implicit assumption that it's the same film you saw in the theatre under the same name, unless the packaging explicitly states otherwise. So I see no reason not to declare this a breach of implicit contract terms, at least for the purpose of ethics if not a real court of law.

[brianeyci]

What the fuck kind of ridiculous black/white fallacy is this? There is no such thing as "ethics" for subjects that aren't really important to society?

The fact is that you generally don't have return rights for a DVD that you're unhappy with, unlike most products. And when you buy a DVD, there is an implicit assumption that it's the same film you saw in the theatre under the same name, unless the packaging explicitly states otherwise. So I see no reason not to declare this a breach of implicit contract terms, at least for the purpose of ethics if not a real court of law.

Yeah I was thinking for a couple hours about the mistake I made. I am just sick of people using the word "right" for smoking, driving, drinking, and I thought using ethics for a DVD fell under the same category, but it isn't. There's consumer protection agencies which stop unethical behaviour that isn't always illegal, for tons of shit that "isn't really important" (to me) and I was silly not to realize that.

[Darth Wong]

Yeah I was thinking for a couple hours about the mistake I made. I am just sick of people using the word "right" for smoking, driving, drinking, and I thought using ethics for a DVD fell under the same category, but it isn't. There's consumer protection agencies which stop unethical behaviour that isn't always illegal, for tons of shit that "isn't really important" (to me) and I was silly not to realize that.

I hate the proliferation of made-up "rights" too, but that doesn't mean there are no ethics of smoking or drinking. It just means that people are using a fallacious "argument by fiat" in those subjects.

[neoolong]

The fact is that you generally don't have return rights for a DVD that you're unhappy with, unlike most products. And when you buy a DVD, there is an implicit assumption that it's the same film you saw in the theatre under the same name, unless the packaging explicitly states otherwise. So I see no reason not to declare this a breach of implicit contract terms, at least for the purpose of ethics if not a real court of law.

I checked amazon.co.uk. Unless the cover on that is different from the actual product at the store, it says Director's Cut at the top. That they didn't release the theatrical is another matter. I'd say that in this case at least, it says what it is, and it is accurate in describing the product.

[DarkSilver]

The pulled the same thing with the 2006 Wicker Man movie - the ending seen in the theaters cannot be found in US versions - they put a new alternate ending in place which, while the movie was bad before, just ruined it completely for me.

I'm actually hoping, in the DVD release of "I am Legend" they give us the original ending, and not the one seen in theaters - I found the ending in theaters was so.....at odds with what the movie was building up, you can't help but be let down by the "happy ending".

But what the hell can you do? You can't exactly returned the purchased DVD (the best you can get stateside is a exchange for the same movie if your disc is damaged/packaged wrong).

[neoolong]

The pulled the same thing with the 2006 Wicker Man movie - the ending seen in the theaters cannot be found in US versions - they put a new alternate ending in place which, while the movie was bad before, just ruined it completely for me.

Are you sure? Dvdcompare.net says the DVD has the unrated and theatrical versions on a double-sided disc.

But what the hell can you do? You can't exactly returned the purchased DVD (the best you can get stateside is a exchange for the same movie if your disc is damaged/packaged wrong).

I understand the issue, and agree with it to some degree. I'm still angry that I can't get widescreen versions of Last Action Hero, Showdown in Little Tokyo nor the uncut version of Hard Target in R1.

That said, for the most parts, the products aren't misleading, and do say Director's Cut when it is. I understand that the Snatch packaging is wrong as are some other ones. But, I think they're usually rare. At least with the Internet I can buy stuff off of amazon.co.uk or sites that import DVD's from other regions.

[Laughing Mechanicus]

Have you tried getting any Region 1 Godzilla films lately? Nearly all of the original versions of the Godzilla series, with English subtitles, are commercially available in the U.S. either through Sony or through the excellent Classic Media releases. In fact, all of the Classic Media DVDs include both the Japanese and American versions of the film, a commentary track, and a documentary.

The massive re-writing that you describe was only done for the first three Godzilla movies, and the original versions of those are available through Classic Media with the exception of King Kong vs. Godzilla, which is complicated legally. The original, rather witty version of this film is not available in the U.S. at all (I had to see it in installments on YouTube), and the butchered American version is on a crap DVD from Universal.

I haven't looked at it in quite a while I have to admit. The reason being that my current DVD player is my XBox360... I doubt I will have much luck getting that to be region free.

I am planning to build a media center PC shortly though, when I have that I will have another DVD player with a more flexible region option so I may try some of those Classic Media releases you suggested, thanks for the tip.

[DarkSilver]

The pulled the same thing with the 2006 Wicker Man movie - the ending seen in the theaters cannot be found in US versions - they put a new alternate ending in place which, while the movie was bad before, just ruined it completely for me.

Are you sure? Dvdcompare.net says the DVD has the unrated and theatrical versions on a double-sided disc.

Unless it came out after I purchased my copy. The one i have is a single sided DVD with only the new ending.

[Zixinus]

Am I the only one that thinks that making the region system for the DVDs was completely idiotic in the first place? As I understand, it was only a way to rip off people, and making different editions for every region makes little sense.

[General Zod]

Am I the only one that thinks that making the region system for the DVDs was completely idiotic in the first place? As I understand, it was only a way to rip off people, and making different editions for every region makes little sense.

Different versions make sense when you consider that not everyone will be speaking the language from the area the DVD originated from and that not everyone wants to read subtitles. Which means that there's very little incentive to include, say, a Russian audio track for a US R1 release, but plenty to include it in a Russian R5 release.

[Darth Wong]

Am I the only one that thinks that making the region system for the DVDs was completely idiotic in the first place? As I understand, it was only a way to rip off people, and making different editions for every region makes little sense.

Different versions make sense when you consider that not everyone will be speaking the language from the area the DVD originated from and that not everyone wants to read subtitles. Which means that there's very little incentive to include, say, a Russian audio track for a US R1 release, but plenty to include it in a Russian R5 release.

Of course different versions make sense. But that doesn't justify the region coding system. In case you're totally clueless about the region coding system, it actually LOCKS OUT players from the "wrong" region so they can't play the disc. That's why some people like to buy "region free" players, even though these technically violate copyright law.

[General Zod]

Of course different versions make sense. But that doesn't justify the region coding system. In case you're totally clueless about the region coding system, it actually LOCKS OUT players from the "wrong" region so they can't play the disc. That's why some people like to buy "region free" players, even though these technically violate copyright law.

I wasn't attempting to justify region-locking at all, though. I was just saying why having different versions for different areas make sense. That was the only part of Zixinus' post I had an issue with.