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Who wants to talk about online roleplaying? Specifically, I'm talking about text based games with a focus on prose and imagination, rather than something more mechanical like MUDs or graphical games of any kind.

Text based online roleplaying games have been a hobby of mine for as long as I've had access to the internet. I started out with free form consent based games, sometimes play by post (PBP) but usually based in chatrooms. From consent games, I moved to MUDs, and then from MUDs to MUSHing. I think MUSHes are pretty much an ideal fit for me, in terms of what I find enjoyable in games. They allow for complex code and descriptions, and they tend to be based around complete tabletop mechanics. The learning curve is somewhat steeper than chat based RP, but if you can figure out how to log on in the first place, actual roleplay isn't any more difficult.

So, I think MUSHes are awesome. Whether you're looking for classic World of Darkness, four color comics games, games based on TV shows, or old school D&D, there's generally something out there for you. There are hundreds of games. The problem is, the community is declining. Fewer people are finding their way in from chat or PBP games, and as the older players stop playing for whatever reason there are fewer active players, which makes for fewer active scenes, which means the whole apparatus is decaying. This is really frustrating for me, because it means my favored hobby is just sort of wasting away. I still play tabletop with my friends, obviously, but I really like the 24-hour persistent availability of MU* games, and I just don't have the patience to go back to dealing with the inanity of chat games.

It occurs to me, though, that PBP and chat games are still huge. Googling that stuff comes up with tons of hits; hell there are even PBP games on this very message board. It seems to me that the way to get new players into MUSHing is to get the word out to chat players there is something else available out there. Obviously the more structured MU* environment isn't for everyone, but I'm sure there are a ton of people out there who would enjoy it but just haven't given it a shot.

So what's up? How many chat/PBP players do we have here? How many of you are willing to give MUSHing a shot? How many have already given it a shot, and what did you think? What sorts of genres are you looking for? I am primarily an old World of Darkness player, but I move to other systems and settings as the whim takes me. Lately I've been doing a fair bit of four color and second edition Exalted.

BTW, to explain: MUD stands for multi-user dungeon. They are text based combat games very similar to modern MMOs. In fact, the first MMOs evolved directly out of MUDs and a lot of their terminology (ex. 'mob') comes from that. MUSH, on the other hand, stands for multi-user shared hallucination. There are slight variations on this, MUCK, MUX, etc, which is why I sometimes use the term MU* to refer to them. MUSHes are similar in structure to MUDs, with a grid of described rooms and interaction with coded objects, but the focus is more on roleplaying with other people rather than automated combat. The code is generally there to facilitate roleplay through easy access to character sheets, varied descriptions and basic combat and dice rolling, etc. It's actually very similar to chat based games, but once you get used to it, it's far and away more engrossing and easier to deal with. This is my opinion, your mileage may vary.

I've only ever gone with the post-by-post system, and had a great time. Unfortunately, it can stall out for long periods of time as you wait for players or even the GM to update. I'd sure be interested in more info about these other types you're talking about.

I've done tabletop RPing using IRC using a dicebot. It was outstanding. The pace was almost like a real face to face game, using both in-character and out-of-character chat windows.

Apart from one young 'un, the rest of us were the 25-35 age range with not much time on our hands at our respective locations, so we did give it our all in roleplaying and making it fun for everyone involved for the time online that we had together. In other words, no one wasted anyone else's time with any douchebaggery.

It was D6 Star Wars, btw.

I tried MUSHing a couple times. I love roleplaying, but MU-whatevers are just too fucking primitive for my tastes, and I got tired of typing out insipidly over-written paragraphs about how my character sips some ale (and reading them for that matter), not to mention trying to grasp the truly arcane miasma of commands and their parameters.

I stick with Neverwinter Nights for my online roleplaying needs - all the cerebral, non-retarded RP you need (if you know where to look), with none of the mess.

Tried mud once and couldn't figure anything out. Done chat room roleplaying for a while now. 2nd Edition Exalted and 4th Edition Shadowrun is where I spend most of my time. Though I've been recruited for a Dark Heresy game to start this saturday. Should be interesting, considering I've never done much of anything in warhammer.

I used to MUD alot when i was at Uni (94-96), in fact MUDding was the main reason why my uni stint only lasted 2 years rather than 4..

I've done Chat-based RP (White-Wolf based mostly), and alot of PBP board games. I'm running and participating in some games right now on LibArc.

I'm in a fairly persistant, if small group right now of nearly exlusive chatroom RP (Through AIM. Good logging, built in dice rolling), though we do have an active messageboard. It's DnD 3.5 with a bunch of our own houserules and flavor, and I've been part of it for the better part of two years, now. It's great, great fun.

I've been Freeforming chatroom RP for over a decade, in general. The few times I tried play-by-post were basically miserable failures and I don't feel like i need to do it again. I prefer the active, realtime pace of chatroom RP than I do posting to a message board.

I do enjoy a good MUSH. For me, it's faaaar more fun than any levelgrindy MMORPG, since those are really in the end, just inferior single player games where you work with others.

Like WoW? It's less fun than Diablo, only with people. And a requirement to play it a billion hours a day.

MUSHing is nice and fun to do, while you're also doing other work. It's not distracting, and relaxing.

I tend to play online in chats, and that's about it. MUDs and MUSHes never appealed to me, and MMOs are just boring. I've tried forum based gaming but I just can't get into its flow. I generally tend to stick with White Wolf stuff for the most part as far as systems go, though.

As Nephtys can attest, Nitram is addicted to MUSH/MUDs. (I'm still waiting to find the 'good steamy RPs' you and Nit's had, Neph*evilgrin*)
The place where he and I met was an AOL-chat-based RPG, and he introduced me to Neph and to WhiteHaven through a StarWars MUSH they were all addicted to, and we've been having fun ever since.

Now... I'm on LibArc and playing in all of DarkSilver's play-by-post games, and another two besides. Nitram's still playing StarWars (the 5th or 6th one), while the WhiteWolf WoD games we were in kinda died off It's a pity... Changelings are such fun to RP.

I love freeform message board RPs. However, they seem to be dying out, and I don't really have time for them either.

I'm in a couple of message board RPs. Fun stuff indeed.

Playing a campaign via Skype conference call, wiki and IRC at the moment. Wiki for characters, setting, fluff and guff, IRC for OOC and Skype for in-character.

I'm in the same camp as Gaius on this issue. I like the idea of an online RPG, but the failure is in the people who want you to actually roleplay all the random little unimportant stuff you do to fill time. I would appreciate more of a 'movie time' form of time compression to save me the need to do the kind of bar-bound malarky that you're basically required to do. As someone who doesn't drink IRL because he hates the taste of the stuff, bar RP is doubly annoying, as I can barely even emote the necessary interest. I'd more enjoy roleplaying getting dental work done.

They should try to have a no more than 2 to 1 ratio of talking to doing. Doing can be RPy too, ya' know. It needn't be this stark disconnect between action and waiting, but that's the inherent nature of the game. And some games let the 'doing' phase be open-ended and self-driven, but that's really as much fun as roleplaying by yourself. If I wanted to sit at a computer and fantasize about myself being on a noble quest, I could just play Oblivion. The good thing about a roleplaying game with real people around is the ability to actually interact and do interesting things and craft dynamic, exciting stories. But it nearly always gets mired in the beer bogs and the boringness of barely interactive combat mechanics. There's something special about dice clattering that you don't get from a random number generator.

Another issue is the type of games out there. WoD is one of the big ones at the moment, but I just can't find anything about the setting I enjoy. And then there's a pile of nonsensical D&D-type spinoffs made by people who think their ideas are so awesome and original, and they're generally pretty frustratingly clique-based. And then there's the wash of bland futurey sorts of games. Blech. You'd think someone would take a pretty basic setting (Wild West in Space) and run with it to good effect, but so often you need to spend a week and a half just trying to make a character, let alone do anything.

If you find a group or a little community (like our roleplay board here) go for it, but I really do find MU*'s aggrivating unless they're designed to cater to people who want to actually do something.

And you used to be so patient, Covie! Tisk tisk. You used to like that sorta stuff.

Settings do matter really. I'm trying to think of a really nice one, but nobody likes sticking to hard, interesting settings. I suppose you're just unlucky after all. Just avoid bar scenes, and you'll be fine.

Nephtys wrote:And you used to be so patient, Covie! Tisk tisk. You used to like that sorta stuff.

Settings do matter really. I'm trying to think of a really nice one, but nobody likes sticking to hard, interesting settings. I suppose you're just unlucky after all. Just avoid bar scenes, and you'll be fine.

You mis-remember. I've nearly always been at-odds with the games we've played, and it was often my complete contempt for the setting that made me want to play. It was in essense an act of spite, just like why I modded Sword of the Stars. It wasn't because I liked the game, it was because I wanted to personally injure and/or insult the fanboys and makers of the game by making it better than they could.

As for patience, I think that's got to do with the perception of fun. At one point, the newness of a setting or a playstyle or so on is itself a point of interest. For the newcomer to a MU* environment, the very act of getting into a scene, establishing a character, and so on, is going to be flat out fun for them (probably) and that's all they're going to demand for a while. So when you start out, yeah, of course it's fun. But as a matter of personal consistancy, you can look back at my level of interest and interaction with games, and it's directly proportional to the amount of Doing as opposed to Waiting/Talking.

Eventually though, just like a real actor who has been in a show for 6 seasons, you want to branch out. However, with the rise of alternative forms of cooperative interactive play (I point towards Diablo as the real beginning of the end) I know I sit there thinking "Why the hell am I talking with Generic Angsty Dark-souled Person when I could be blowing men into confetti with six buddies in TeamFortress2? Or when I could be chewing on large yellow electric rats as a giant firebreathing turtle in Smash Brothers?"

And that's generally when the scene's natural drag becomes unbearable. If you're not getting intellectual stimulation (a mystery to solve, or a puzzle, or a challenging special enemy!) then you're just wasting time, since MU*'s certainly aren't able to pay out the visceral thrills of nearly any other form of entertainment.

A movie, for example. When is an action movie at it's worst? When the talking goes on too damn long, or there's too many Stupid Humans and not enough Giant Transforming Robots. When you get tied up in the Obligatory Lovestory and don't get to watch the Alien Spacebattle, or such things.

There are very few RPGs that don't have a focus on some kind of objective, and the actions you take to achieve it. I love all sorts of nonviolent gameplay, but combat is generally what RPGs fall back on. D&D, White Wolf, Palladium, Star Wars, etc, these are all essentially frameworks for playing out action movies of one style or another. So if you take your "Choose Your Own Action Adventure" game system, and your GM decides to be Ang Goddamn Lee and fuck up your game of Hulk d20 with too many retarded bar scenes and unimportant dialogue filler, you're going to be frustrated and the game is goign to suffer and fail to attract interest. It will certainly not the first thing that comes to mind when you think "This day was really stressful. What will help me relax?"

And even worse, it's not even intentionally filled in. Usually the 'filler' is downtime between GM events, which means that it's not poorly structured, it's just totally ancillary to the game itself. It's like waiting in the lounge before your next round of HW2 starts up, or something. It's like a loading time. And that sucks.

I know what you mean, Covvie. I ran into this with Neverwinter Nights PW's, where people wanted me to sit around a tavern having these long conversations. At the time I had like three weeks off with horrible weather outside in a town where I didn't know anybody, and even then I got bored after about 45 minutes and wanted to go smash some monsters. But there's a class of people who consider themselves "real RPers" to whom a person should never want to smash monsters, and anyone who does should go play Counterstrike.

But this all really boils down to the importance of a good gaming group. The signal to noise ratio in the greater RPing community is horrendous, so you're going to run into jackass after jackass if you just pick people to play with essentially at random. With a good gaming group, even a whole RP session spent sitting around a bar can be enthralling, with intra-party rivalries and jealousies flaring up. We had several sessions in the SDN3 cyberpunk campaign for Tensided back in 2005 where I as the GM did essentially nothing but watch the drama unfold.

Vain wrote:So, I think MUSHes are awesome. Whether you're looking for classic World of Darkness, four color comics games, games based on TV shows, or old school D&D, there's generally something out there for you. There are hundreds of games. The problem is, the community is declining. Fewer people are finding their way in from chat or PBP games, and as the older players stop playing for whatever reason there are fewer active players, which makes for fewer active scenes, which means the whole apparatus is decaying. This is really frustrating for me, because it means my favored hobby is just sort of wasting away. I still play tabletop with my friends, obviously, but I really like the 24-hour persistent availability of MU* games, and I just don't have the patience to go back to dealing with the inanity of chat games.

A hearty Me Too to all of the above.

Covenant wrote:And that's generally when the scene's natural drag becomes unbearable. If you're not getting intellectual stimulation (a mystery to solve, or a puzzle, or a challenging special enemy!) then you're just wasting time, since MU*'s certainly aren't able to pay out the visceral thrills of nearly any other form of entertainment. [snip] And even worse, it's not even intentionally filled in. Usually the 'filler' is downtime between GM events, which means that it's not poorly structured, it's just totally ancillary to the game itself. It's like waiting in the lounge before your next round of HW2 starts up, or something. It's like a loading time. And that sucks.

Allowing for some variance in taste (EG: Socializing is emphasized more as a matter of course in nearly all WoD games) I think you raise some very good points here that provide substantial food for thought for me. How to provide that intellectual stimulation and avoid the "loading room" feel 24/7 without 24/7 hands-on GMing is the eternal MUSH Staff* conundrum. Obviously "get more RP staff" is the obvious answer, but failing that what else is there? I've mainly attempted to exercize quality control at the approval phase over the years, with some entertainingly mixed results that some of you may be familiar with if you're the sort who reads WORA. I'd be very interested in hearing people's thoughts on this branch of the topic in particular, obviously.

* (As always when this topic comes up, I won't spam you all but feel free to PM me if you'd like to hear about a long-running oWoD MUSH with lots of room for new players, and also with staff that many players feel are not total douchebags)

Covenant wrote: They should try to have a no more than 2 to 1 ratio of talking to doing. Doing can be RPy too, ya' know. It needn't be this stark disconnect between action and waiting, but that's the inherent nature of the game. And some games let the 'doing' phase be open-ended and self-driven, but that's really as much fun as roleplaying by yourself. If I wanted to sit at a computer and fantasize about myself being on a noble quest, I could just play Oblivion. The good thing about a roleplaying game with real people around is the ability to actually interact and do interesting things and craft dynamic, exciting stories. But it nearly always gets mired in the beer bogs and the boringness of barely interactive combat mechanics. There's something special about dice clattering that you don't get from a random number generator.

Gawd that's a classic GM blunder that I really hate too. I wouldn't attach a ratio to it so much as say that if the group wants to do a deep, deep, deep let's talk serious rp session as opposed to a bust some heads rp session the GM should let them. Vice versa too.

Gaidin wrote:Gawd that's a classic GM blunder that I really hate too. I wouldn't attach a ratio to it so much as say that if the group wants to do a deep, deep, deep let's talk serious rp session as opposed to a bust some heads rp session the GM should let them. Vice versa too.

I wouldn't normally attach a ratio to it either, but yeah, you know where I'm coming from. Just looking at it from a movie/film perspective, the ability to dice up your time is important. One of the things about the Star Wars franchise of RPGs that started with WEG is that they gave handy movie-style pacing guides to help people plan out an interesting missions. It's not that an RPG should just be a TV show, but I think that RPGs would certainly do very well commercially and satisfy a lot of gamers if they were--essentially--'Choose Your Own Adventure' self-insertion versions of LotR or Star Wars or whatever.

Raw Shark wrote:How to provide that intellectual stimulation and avoid the "loading room" feel 24/7 without 24/7 hands-on GMing is the eternal MUSH Staff* conundrum. Obviously "get more RP staff" is the obvious answer, but failing that what else is there? I've mainly attempted to exercize quality control at the approval phase over the years, with some entertainingly mixed results that some of you may be familiar with if you're the sort who reads WORA. I'd be very interested in hearing people's thoughts on this branch of the topic in particular, obviously.

It's hard to come up with a single solution because each game is it's own community of gamers. If you want to benefit the greatest number of people possible, then that's a different matter entirely, but if what you're attempting to do is improve the game of just your little cabal... then it requires you to look more deeply into the game you're playing. A WoD game, as stated, is a lot more talky and hangy-outy, since it's based around a modern-day social scene and the idea of hiding in plain sight. This isn't a good fit for me, but that game isn't designed to appeal to me anyway.

One of the biggest changes that games could make, though, are the inclusion of player-directed semiautomated elements that let them basically 'grind' a little in their spare time. Not mashing monsters, but doing SOMETHING to advance themselves, relax, and put them into contact with a wider variety of players. So long as people are swapping time for progress, they have a nearly infinite appetite for mindless tedium. If you can make it less mindless and more awesome then even better. Such as making there be factions (and subfactions) that oppose each other. You wouldn't imagine how much fun a MU* version of capture the flag can be if it has an in-game significance. I played a game where objects could only be created if you had blueprints, and blueprints had to be researched at mainframe computers (and only one character at the time could produce those!). However, you could put a blueprint on a datachip, so there was a ton of industrial espionage attempts where people would try to steal data and get it back, safely, to your hideout (it was a large city so you could easily rent a space and have a hideout that nobody would ever accidentally notice).

For Sci-Fi games, spacetravel is a good idea, since people adore owning their own ship and being able to travel (and trade for profit) gives players an obvious plot-hook for getting involved in things when GMs are ready, as well as creating interesting group dynamics (Jedi don't own spaceships and need to hire out Smuggler vessels, etc). For Fantasy games, ownership is more complicated. Airships--if available--are a good analog to spaceships. As are boats, especially pirate clippers. There's obvious the option for random encounters, but that's not a terribly GOOD idea.

Something that always aids play are things that get characters together. The formation of factions, parties, small companies, etc--those are extremely useful, especially if there's competition and mutually beneficial cooperation between members. The crew of a ship, the band of rougish thieves, the secret society, these things give ties to each other and help foster roleplaying around more than just one vector. Maybe by day you're a Shopkeeper at a Potion Shop that you own, on the weekends you're an adventurer, and on the night of a full moon you attend the Coven of Naughty Persons meetings (using a special 'hooded robe' item that conceals your identity), sell poisons to the other assassins, and occasionally sign up for a secret mission.

To help all this go smoothly, especially shopping, you need things that tell players who is online, what their job is, and how to find them. In a Fantasy game, you can just use a +jobs function or something to bring up a list of all the people currently (as in, at the moment) exercising a Job skill. When our shopkeeper is himself, he's got his Apothecary Job on (as he does when he's fighting--a warrior is not itself a job), and when he's in Secret Society mode his job shows up as Poisonmaker (and would probably have his 'location' listed as unknown--contact the sekret sohiety!) and so long as these jobs are actually useful you'll have people making use of them. You'll probably have 1000 weaponsmiths in a game, but RPG players tend to like to find a niche. Plus, competition is good for the players, and if the economy is functional (It costs me 2 gold to make a sword, a sword normally sells for 10, player-made swords usually cost 8, and I could sell mine for 5, but my shop requires 500 gold a month to upkeep) then there's a lot of instant RP right there... especially if you build other things into the economy, such as item wear and tear, degrees of proficency (my swords are cheap shit, whereas Galafradinteal the Elftard makes some quality pigstickers, but charges 20 per) and a steamlining of the 'ordering' process (I log on to find someone put in an order for a sword, dagger, and shield while I was asleep, and then write back at the name provided to tell them when I'll be ready--and once it is the 'job contract' is instantly completed and mailed to him and the attached payment is automatically added to my pocket) then you'll get a lot of people doing stuff. Obviously I'm a fan of crafting, but I think it's a powerful tool for providing downtime entertainment and can be used to create a lot of roleplay.

Crafting always works out pretty well, especially since it helps found a player-run economy and acts as an automatic goldsink as well as an automatic goldfarm. It also dovetails into one of the few forms of ownership that works in any game, a small private business or shop, and those always help advance RP. If your game is fantasy, that's smithing and potionmaking and arcane design type skills. If your game is steampunk, it's lowtech engineering and clockworking as well as some heavy factory work suitable for dumb, large characters. If it's futuristic or modern, there's a whole slew of useful 'crafting' skills, from computer software engineering to electronic wiretapping sorts, demolitions, firearms customizers, automotive engineering, etc. And a player who wants to be Batman may not be able to have all these traits himself, so he needs to hire out. So if Batman goes to Frank's Autobody to have his batmobile created, you've just made RP for several people and don't need to involve the staff intimately (just for the end result).

Houses are another worthless timesink that people love. Being able to buy, decorate, and customize a piece of land all your own is the single most common modification for an RPG (aside from nude patches, swords from obscure anime and comic books, and godhood) and the easiest to replicate in a MU* where you basically have a small amount of space that you 'own' anyway. Nobody says the house needs to be a physical location on the grid, even though a virtural city with actual neighborhoods of players DOES lead into interesting roleplay avenues. It may not entertain people FOREVER, but it gives people something to do.

Really, when you get right down to it, look at what the most popular features in both graphical and textbased RPGs are. Character Customization, Power Advancement, House Ownership, Travel Options, Sex, Violence, and Other People. Why do most MU* games devolve into places people go to hang out in bars, occasionally do a scene or a mission and blow shit up, and then go have kinky sex with each other in a private room--sometimes in open defiance of everything the theme says? I'm looking at you, WoD Vampires. Because that's really what people like to do in general.

And I'm not just projecting here, I'm pretty sure those are the common themes you'd find in most MU*'s, and on just about every Morrowind, Oblivion, Neverwinter, etc mod out there. The three H's of an effective, satisfying roleplaying experience are Houses, Horses and Whores.

Players know how to fuck on their own, so that's not a big deal. And combat requires GMs--if you need more combat, then you just need more GMs, or slightly more random combat. The ones who want to talk can talk, and they'd be happy on IRC too, so you can forget about THEIR needs. A chat-RPer is like that kid who is happy no matter what he does. The ones who want to kill things all day are probably munchkins and aren't worth appeasing, since they'd be happier playing WoW (if their Mom hadn't cancelled their subscription). But a genuinely bored roleplayer who is just looking for a reason to actually bother to play today (after the months and months of relatively boring RP with the same people in a bar) is the commodity you're trying to keep around, and what they need is the sensation of working TOWARDS something, that they're on the road to an epic heroic story and maybe it won't be today, but hey they can make some more potions and sell a few at their shop so they can buy a better shield.