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Thanas wrote:A lot of RPGs managed that, for example the Baldur's Gate saga. Also, KOTOR I is another example.

I must have played a different KoTOR. All the Bioware games I've played have featured the same ridiculous 'being evil is about swearing and stabbing people for no reason' crap. You can talk to a bum, and either give him a dollar or murder him. Wow, that's so evil!

Oh wait, it's just lame and weak. Don't get me started on Mass Effect's hilarious idea of representing the kind of guy who 'does what needs to be done' to save the world; in Bioware's world, 'what needs to be done' is usually starting unnecessary conflicts, being rude, or dismissive of subordinates. Wow, that's Hitler-level evil!

Stark wrote:Oh wait, it's just lame and weak. Don't get me started on Mass Effect's hilarious idea of representing the kind of guy who 'does what needs to be done' to save the world; in Bioware's world, 'what needs to be done' is usually starting unnecessary conflicts, being rude, or dismissive of subordinates. Wow, that's Hitler-level evil!

Yeah, I just started playing ME through again as the Ruthless personality type and...ugh. Ruthless doesn't mean you're a xenophobic prick; it means you're willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish your goals. How does badmouthing the people who are trying to help you improve your chances of getting the job done? When I saw "Ruthless" I was expecting a cold-blooded bastard who didn't go out of his way to be cruel but wouldn't hesitate to do some fairly horrible things if it was the only way to get the job done. I really enjoy the gameplay but I gave up very early on out of sheer annoyance.

Even a "Look, I don't really like the aliens either, but we don't have to LIKE them, we have to WORK WITH THEM" would have been better than the outright "everyone who isn't human sucks" approach.

Yeah, I just started playing ME through again as the Ruthless personality type and...ugh. Ruthless doesn't mean you're a xenophobic prick; it means you're willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish your goals.

Which is exactly how I played the character. I did whatever it took to accomplish my goals. I wasn't a xenophobe. What made you think "Ruthless" pegs you in to anything?

"Sole Survivor", "War Hero", "Ruthless" have nothing to do with the choices you make in the game, you know that, right? It dictates your backstory, affects some dialog in the game, and gives an extremely minor to Paragon and Renegade scores depending on which you pick.

It's quite open to you to choose "Ruthless" at the start and then roleplay as someone who regrets what he did at Torfan.

How does badmouthing the people who are trying to help you improve your chances of getting the job done?

What has "Ruthless" got to do with bad-mouthing people? Very few of the dialog choices where you badmouth someone have any effect on your Paragon/ Renegade score. But why shouldn't they give you the option to play like a prick? I enjoy it, quite frankly.

When I saw "Ruthless" I was expecting a cold-blooded bastard who didn't go out of his way to be cruel but wouldn't hesitate to do some fairly horrible things if it was the only way to get the job done. I really enjoy the gameplay but I gave up very early on out of sheer annoyance.

Even a "Look, I don't really like the aliens either, but we don't have to LIKE them, we have to WORK WITH THEM" would have been better than the outright "everyone who isn't human sucks" approach.

You do know that your character practically says exactly that in conversation in the game, if you want him/ her to?

All the major options in the game aren't "cartoonishly evil", unlike KOTOR's ridiculous black/white fallacy. ME's a vast improvement.

Heck, the only cartoon-evil option in the game is telling Anoleis on Noveria that Gianna is with IA. They kill each other, it's awesome.

Hey Vympel, you know that the 'bottom right' option on the convo tree is the 'renegade' option, right? The conversation system was designed so you didn't really have to read the options; top right is 'good', bottom right is 'bad, and the left options are generally requests for more information. It's no accident that the right options later turn into the magic 'do anything because I've got lots of faction' options whereby you can make a guy give up heroin by sternly talking to them.

I'm not sure how they're displayed/used on PC; the system was designed to be thumbstick driven on a console. The 'renegade' options when laughing at Ashley and destroying her sense of self-worth are particularly hilarious; this is clearly the best way to succeed. 'Evil' = 'poor management', apparently. Regardless of faction or attitude or background, you can't just ice the Noveria cops right at the start, so the entire system fails. Renegade is thus 'being rude' and expressly NOT 'kill anyone who gets in your way because the bigger issues are more important'. If the game hadn't been so conventional and hobbled the Noveria section would have been far less boring.

EDIT - Yeah, many reviews were good, but many actually went out of their way to bitch about how it isn't 'really' and RPG, or how it's a 'generic' setting or whatever. Most of the people I know who dig shit like Bioware games never even TRIED the Witcher.

The big downside of the game is it's very density and power; having taken a break in chapter 3, I'm not geared up to jump back in because I have little idea what's going on and would find it difficult to make the 'best' decisions (since I've already come down pretty heavily on the side of the leftist terrorists). I hope Enhanced doesn't end up in Eastern European Developer Hell.

Stark wrote:Hey Vympel, you know that the 'bottom right' option on the convo tree is the 'renegade' option, right? The conversation system was designed so you didn't really have to read the options; top right is 'good', bottom right is 'bad, and the left options are generally requests for more information. It's no accident that the right options later turn into the magic 'do anything because I've got lots of faction' options whereby you can make a guy give up heroin by sternly talking to them.

Yes, but what kind of doof is playing this game not for the purposes of role-playing, but for the purposes of "I'm just going to click the Renegade option, no matter how inappropriate it is to my character?" I conciously skipped the Renegade option many times because it was simply not what I wanted to say, but in the end, I was still a ruthless bastard who cared little for others.

I'm not sure how they're displayed/used on PC; the system was designed to be thumbstick driven on a console. The 'renegade' options when laughing at Ashley and destroying her sense of self-worth are particularly hilarious; this is clearly the best way to succeed. 'Evil' = 'poor management', apparently.

There are lots of people in real life who will insult the shit out of you and then tell themselves they're doing you a favour while doing it. Personally - fuck Ashley. She's a racist bitch.

Also note that noone ever said that "Renegade" = "Evil".

Regardless of faction or attitude or background, you can't just ice the Noveria cops right at the start, so the entire system fails.

I don't see how that makes the entire system fail.

Renegade is thus 'being rude' and expressly NOT 'kill anyone who gets in your way because the bigger issues are more important'. If the game hadn't been so conventional and hobbled the Noveria section would have been far less boring.

EDIT - Yeah, many reviews were good, but many actually went out of their way to bitch about how it isn't 'really' and RPG, or how it's a 'generic' setting or whatever. Most of the people I know who dig shit like Bioware games never even TRIED the Witcher.

The big downside of the game is it's very density and power; having taken a break in chapter 3, I'm not geared up to jump back in because I have little idea what's going on and would find it difficult to make the 'best' decisions (since I've already come down pretty heavily on the side of the leftist terrorists). I hope Enhanced doesn't end up in Eastern European Developer Hell.

So stick with the lefty terrorists. There is, after all, three ending variants - Flaming Rose, Squirrels/ Scoi'atel, and Neutral. Then play the game two more times

Quite a hijack; should we get it moved?

Anyway, the 'renegade' options are not what they're described as (ie, ruthless, do-anything-to-win), they're 'rude and foolish' options. There's no benefit at all to just making fun of people or dismissing their concerns, or sometimes totally ignoring valuable information so you can say 'yadda yadda'. People do, in fact, not play these games for 'role playing', and you are indeed the only person who has ever suggested this - and regardless, if the bottom right option is 80% 'say a hurtful thing' and this is supposed to be a revolutionary moral system, that's a failure. Killing local cops that myopically try to interfere with a government agent with unlimited extralegal powers showed they had no commitment at all to the concept from the start; no matter how much you make people cry and laugh at their pain (ie, juvenile nonsense), you can't just blow away a few people who are actually and for serious problems stopping you saving the universe (ie, ruthless but actually useful and understandable). Can you see how 'renegade' being 'rude, but not going to kill someone to streamline the conflict' is actually the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be? It's even sadder that the game very seldom reads your alignment points - aside from using the Magic Convo Options, people don't react to you differently and addicts will even try to scum drug money off the internationally famous paragon of virtue... because it's a scripted event. Renegade points aren't even consistent; blow off enough people with hurtful remarks, and you can almost get the 75% bonus, without actually doing any renegade ACTIONS at all! Suck and fail - even more so if you dredge up the hilariously inaccurate hype the devs through out about how it was going to be different to the childish Kotor system.

And I can't remember what the anti-racists were even doing; I think I'd have to read the journal and quest history to work out where I was and what everyone's agenda was. Contrast with ME, lol. I'm just going to restart when the enhanced version comes out; maybe this time I won't think 'holy shit that chick I just banged in the barn is now dead in the cave wtf'.

EDIT - thanks guys, and ... er... sorry?

Vympel wrote:Yes, but what kind of doof is playing this game not for the purposes of role-playing, but for the purposes of "I'm just going to click the Renegade option, no matter how inappropriate it is to my character?"

Actually, that's me at the moment. But only because I'm trying to get the thrice damned "Renegade" achievement.

It's turning out to be a bit of work since most the time I only get like two points or so.

I found a few events gave giant piles of 'renegade' points; like killing the queen tyranid and such. The general 'be rude' stuff is a very slow cooker for renegade points.

Actually, does anyone know if there's an equal number of both points in the game? I found my paragon run went up way faster; by the time I finished Feros I was already quite high, but I barely made 75% on my renegade run. If the numbers were different (or renegade points are more centred in a few events) that makes the system even WORSE.

Stark wrote:I found a few events gave giant piles of 'renegade' points; like killing the queen tyranid and such. The general 'be rude' stuff is a very slow cooker for renegade points.

That's a good point. I should do a search on the renegade options and see what missions they're massed most heavily on. My points shot up a lot after killing of the bug race, but now it's just kinda trickling along. And lol @ the 'nid comment.

It's funny that you mention the point stacking issue. Now that I think about it, it's been a while since I played paragon but I don't recall it being as difficult massing points as it has been for renegade.

I think the biggest problem with Biowares way of doing things is that no matter what game they make, They always rewards players for going to the extremes, Like in ME they have boni for reaching 75% Paragon or Renegade but no achievement for reaching 50% in each.

Which i think kind of goes against the intend of the game premise as far as i see it - Soldier trying to walk a fine line between different races,politics and whatnot.

You're either The Joker or John McClane when you really should be Jack Bauer.

I think that was my problem with 'renegade' path actually; so many of the 'renegade' options were so cataclysmically retarded I couldn't bring myself to select them, but you don't 'get' anything until you reach a certain critical mass of stupid decisions and one-liners.

To be honest, I think the bonuses should have been linked to specific events, with the 'score' simply being used to check abstract things with rolls. Big moral choices should be more important than '10% closer to a silly bonus'.

Suggesting Jack Bauer as a middle ground is absurd, but I certainly expected the 'renegade' path to make you like Bauer; cutting through bullshit and not caring about people issues to get the job done, regardless of how absurdly morally bankrupt that makes you.

I think the way Bioware describes being Renegade that Jack Bauer is the middle ground.

One of the odder examples of the system is the Earthborn sidequest.

Old gangmember from earth threatens to blackmail you if you don't help him out. The renegade option that nets you renegade points is to tell him that you can kill him and everyone in the room completely legally.

The neutral response that nets you zero renegade points?

Shoot him in the head.

W. T. F.

But whatever. When I do a "renegade" playthrough, I dodge the stupid, dickish responses while still sticking to "get the job done" mentality. Gun down the colonists on Feros, ice the rachni queen, blast Wrex the moment he pulls a shotgun on me, kill the Council in the name of the Imperium of Ma- er, the Systems Alliance, etc.

Despite that, though, I can never, ever bring myself to execute Shiala, mostly because she just helped me, and if I was in a position where I didn't trust her, I would use my galaxy police powers to do what a police officer would do and arrest her. Really, the game is full of contrived moral choices where a third, alternate option is never even considered, i.e. call up the Council regarding the rachni queen and ask for their judgment on the matter.

One of the truly Evil and retarded moments are on Noveria - after Parasini has told you shes an undercover agent and she needs your help convincing Lorik Qui'in to testify against Administrator Anoleis.

you can talk to Lorik Qui'in and do as she suggested, you can tell Parasini you won't waste your time or you couldn't convince Qui'in - all these things will give you the garage pass.

But you can also go down and tell Administrator Anoleis that Parasini is in fact a undercover agent, for no apparent reason - (since you at this point already know the fasted way to get the garage pass and complete your mission) - and the result is a shootout where both Administrator Anoleis and Parasini ends up dead, resulting in a hefty dose of renegade points(which makes very little sense since it has nothing to do with "getting the job done" and a whole lot to do with being psychotic).

Peptuck wrote:One of the odder examples of the system is the Earthborn sidequest.

Old gangmember from earth threatens to blackmail you if you don't help him out. The renegade option that nets you renegade points is to tell him that you can kill him and everyone in the room completely legally.

The neutral response that nets you zero renegade points?

Shoot him in the head.

W. T. F.

Really? I could've sworn I got Renegate points when I shot him in the head (new character, my original character was a Spacer). But that was in the bar- after he threatened me.

But whatever. When I do a "renegade" playthrough, I dodge the stupid, dickish responses while still sticking to "get the job done" mentality. Gun down the colonists on Feros, ice the rachni queen, blast Wrex the moment he pulls a shotgun on me, kill the Council in the name of the Imperium of Ma- er, the Systems Alliance, etc.

Yup, that's my renegade play style.

Despite that, though, I can never, ever bring myself to execute Shiala, mostly because she just helped me, and if I was in a position where I didn't trust her, I would use my galaxy police powers to do what a police officer would do and arrest her. Really, the game is full of contrived moral choices where a third, alternate option is never even considered, i.e. call up the Council regarding the rachni queen and ask for their judgment on the matter.

Spectres don't ask the Council for their judgement, they tell you that frm the start.

But you can also go down and tell Administrator Anoleis that Parasini is in fact a undercover agent, for no apparent reason - (since you at this point already know the fasted way to get the garage pass and complete your mission) - and the result is a shootout where both Administrator Anoleis and Parasini ends up dead, resulting in a hefty dose of renegade points(which makes very little sense since it has nothing to do with "getting the job done" and a whole lot to do with being psychotic).

Actually I think it's only "retarded evil" if you know that's what going to happen beforehand - i.e. you're reading a walkthrough. What happened to me is that I did it as a potential way of getting a garage pass and getting more cash.

Instead, the game has Anoleis wayyyy overreact and freak out. There's nothing wrong with that. Actions can have unintended consequences.

Stark wrote: Actually, does anyone know if there's an equal number of both points in the game? I found my paragon run went up way faster; by the time I finished Feros I was already quite high, but I barely made 75% on my renegade run. If the numbers were different (or renegade points are more centred in a few events) that makes the system even WORSE.

I got 100% Renegade on my first run - perhaps because I had a lot of Intimidate. My new character is not putting any points into Charm or Intimidate, because you can get them free up to maximum after several playthroughs, and I'm trying to get all achievements (the 1.01 patch added it so you can see what achievements you haven't gotten, the fuckers!). So maybe I won't hit 100% in this playthrough.

Vympel wrote:

Despite that, though, I can never, ever bring myself to execute Shiala, mostly because she just helped me, and if I was in a position where I didn't trust her, I would use my galaxy police powers to do what a police officer would do and arrest her. Really, the game is full of contrived moral choices where a third, alternate option is never even considered, i.e. call up the Council regarding the rachni queen and ask for their judgment on the matter.

Spectres don't ask the Council for their judgement, they tell you that frm the start.

Which makes the part where everyone starts bitching at you for executing or saving the rachni all the sillier.

Peptuck wrote: Which makes the part where everyone starts bitching at you for executing or saving the rachni all the sillier.

Which is made even more ridiculous because none of that has any real impact in-game beyond a couple lines of dialog.

I remember distinctly that when my dad and I were first playing the game we had two quests that contrasted the different outcomes of the whole "moral choice" thing quite nicely.

First was that scavenger hunt you get on The Citadel where you scan the keepers and eventually find out that the two dudes are fighting.

I chose the nicey-nice resolution where I convince them that they're both being crazy and paranoid. My dad (who called his character Commander Dickhead) chose the 'renegade' path (where you shoot both of them in the head...which the dialogue option for that makes no hint that you'll do which seems a bit odd...). In neither case did we hear anything more about our character's actions.

The second was the one where you get interviewed by the reporter. I again went with the paragon choices, Commander Dickhead went with the "screw you! *smack*" response, the result? I got a message from Admiral Gravelyvoice saying "good job!!!", my dad got "ah, screw those reporters, I never liked them anyway!!!".

EDIT: Of course, it's even more amusing that there are so fucking many crime lord/super virtuous types who (knowing full well your reputation as a law abiding paragon/ruthless psychotic ass) will step right up to you and say "hey, yo! I'm a crime lord/virtuous tool, I've totally got some criminal endeavors/delicate negotiations that need doing, you should help me for money/items/experience."

The game can get darn politically correct and dopey at times.

And yes, the Shiala thing got me wondering: Since when is the law so forgiving as to... let her go off scot free and just let her "repent for her sins by doing something noble"?

Peptuck wrote:
Which makes the part where everyone starts bitching at you for executing or saving the rachni all the sillier.

Only the turian bitches at you - just because they're not meant to give their seal of approval to something doesn't mean they can't disapprove of what you did. The asari and the salarian council members intervene in this regard (i.e. telling the turian to cool it) several times, IIRC.

Which is made even more ridiculous because none of that has any real impact in-game beyond a couple lines of dialog.

How is the Rachni Queen going to have much impact in the timeframe of the game?

DIT: Of course, it's even more amusing that there are so fucking many crime lord/super virtuous types who (knowing full well your reputation as a law abiding paragon/ruthless psychotic ass) will step right up to you and say "hey, yo! I'm a crime lord/virtuous tool, I've totally got some criminal endeavors/delicate negotiations that need doing, you should help me for money/items/experience."

I've noticed this a lot - the assumption that everyone knows what you're like. Errr - how? Some people in the game don't even know you're a fucking Spectre (the guy on Feros, for example) until you tell them, what makes anyone think that everyone who fronts up to you knows every single thing you've ever done? That's retarded. You're not a pro-wrestler.

Stark wrote:and regardless, if the bottom right option is 80% 'say a hurtful thing' and this is supposed to be a revolutionary moral system, that's a failure.

I don't think the Paragon/Renegade system was ever supposed to be a "revolutionary moral system" outside of the most breathless hype. It's actually just the standard videogame karma meter, but instead of being good or (playground) evil it's whether you're a nice person whilst you're saving the galaxy or a cunt about it, or somewhere in the middle. (Since the karma bars are seperate, you don't "lose" Renegade points for taking a Paragon option once in a while, it's even possible to get both types of points for the same quest).

The neutral response that nets you zero renegade points?

Shoot him in the head.

In the Sole Survivor background quest, shooting the guy in the head is the Paragon option.

Vympel wrote:Only the turian bitches at you - just because they're not meant to give their seal of approval to something doesn't mean they can't disapprove of what you did. The asari and the salarian council members intervene in this regard (i.e. telling the turian to cool it) several times, IIRC.

God, that Turian.

Killed the Rachni: "What? You genocidal maniac! Why would you do such a terrible thing?"
Freed the Rachni: "What? You naïve idiot! Now we're all going to get eaten by Rachni!"

What a wanker.

Vympel wrote:Really? I could've sworn I got Renegate points when I shot him in the head (new character, my original character was a Spacer). But that was in the bar- after he threatened me.

Yes, I distinctly recall getting 8 Renegade points for shooting Finch. I am however disappointed you only get 2 Renegade points for slugging Miss al Jilani (in my last Renegade game I simply brushed her off), which is less than the 8 you get for shoving a gun in Conrad Verner's face after he asks you to sign him on as a Spectre. I suppose the use of the Charm/Intimadate skill factors into the point reward, but I don't see why say, using Intimidate to blackmail Lorik Qu'inn into testifying against Anoleus should net you 25 Renegade points, while executing people in cold blood only nets 8 or 9 (except if you kill Wrex yourself on Virmire).

Cycloneman wrote:God, that Turian.

Killed the Rachni: "What? You genocidal maniac! Why would you do such a terrible thing?"
Freed the Rachni: "What? You naïve idiot! Now we're all going to get eaten by Rachni!"

What a wanker.

That's perhaps my least favorite choice in the game: You must either kill the Rachni queen or release her; there's no option for leaving her confined and letting the Council decide her fate. I get the impression this is what the Turian councilor would have wanted, though of course the game doesn't let you do that.

Cycloneman wrote:

Vympel wrote:Only the turian bitches at you - just because they're not meant to give their seal of approval to something doesn't mean they can't disapprove of what you did. The asari and the salarian council members intervene in this regard (i.e. telling the turian to cool it) several times, IIRC.

God, that Turian.

Killed the Rachni: "What? You genocidal maniac! Why would you do such a terrible thing?"
Freed the Rachni: "What? You naïve idiot! Now we're all going to get eaten by Rachni!"

What a wanker.

I got the impression that the turian councilor is pretty much anti-human. The turians are rather pissed at humanity after the First Contact War, and that councilor seems to have his panties in a bunch about humans in general; in every transmission to the Council he does seem to find some way to complain about your actions or question your decisions.