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After it being back in my pile of games for several months (due to 360 repairs, being interstate and playing other games) I got back into GTA IV and have reached the big finale. And what it's shown me, is just how unpleasantly linear the GTA games have become.

I battle my way through the roadblock and abandoned building full of goons and reach the guy I'm after. After a brief cutscene he takes off and I'm in pursuit. I gun down a few mooks and corner him on a nearby dock. No, wait, he's hopped into a boat and is taking off. Never mind that it's an open-topped boat and I could put an RPG straight into it right now, because the designers want me to chase him.

So chase him I do. There's another boat sitting right there - I hop in it and... Mission failed - you abandoned the bike. What the hell? What bike? I'm in a boat, I'm right alongside the other boat and can put MP5 rounds into this douchebag's head all day long, but it's mission failed?

Fine, where do I restart? I hope it's not at the start of that fucking chase sequence! Oh, only back at the beginning of the firefight? Sure. Why not. Fuck you developers. It's not like I can't get through that gun-battle with my eyes shut.

Oh shit - wait, I restart with only my remaining health/ammo? Fine, still a cakewalk. About a 3-5 minute cakewalk, but a cakewalk none-the-less. So I go through the firefight. Again. I get to the cutscene. Again. I chase the guy to the docks. Again.

This time I diligently look around. Ah - there's the bike, behind me - just where I didn't look last time. I hop on and take off along the coast, chasing the boat. Then I reach a point where I'm suddenly told to make a jump - what jump? Off what jetty? Where? Oh, over there? Back the way I came? Fuck. Mission Failed. Never mind that the boat was still in my sights, not to mention those of the fucking helicopter also chasing it.

It's this progression in the GTA games towards unbreakable, invisible wall filled narrative that is pissing me off. Why punish me for being good at playing the game? If I can run that guy down in the first leg of the mission, why not let me kill him then and there? Why put an invulnerable tag on that guy, his car, his boat, his helicopter...

Why, early in the game, when I'm getting a tutorial on shooting while driving a motorcycle does is give me an invulnerable target? It's a bit counter-intuitive isn't it? How am I meant to know that my shots aren't being effective because the guys invulnerable? I thought my gun was just weak as shit or that I was missing. And then, there's a cutscene and though it's never mentioned to you, he is now vulnerable to getting shot. But of course, by that point I'd given up on trying to shoot him.

Was that cutscene really important? Did it add anything to the game? No. And no. So why make me go through a several minute chase sequence against a guy I could have just capped in the first 10 seconds? Is it because you wanted to have "20 hours of gameplay!" as a fucking box quote? The internal logic of your game is fucked. The experience is not consistent! You can't just change the rules because your precious story can't cope with someone out-thinking the AI.

If you tried to pull that shit as a GM at any pen and paper session your players would give you some rather vociferous feedback on your lack of subtlety and imagination. Try not putting the shit in there next time if you can't get it to work within the game properly. Seriously - playing GTA IV is like playing Calvin-ball, except no one is telling you when the rules change. You're just expected to instinctively know that the guy who's fleeing from you has the invulnerable tag and not to pause to shoot him - because there's this totally killer bit of dialogue that they've written and you need to make an irrelevant moral choice at the end of a protracted chase sequence.

What about the times when in order to string out a chase you magically give someone a physics defying vehicle? If I'm able to force a guy in a sports car head on into a semi, I want to see that guy get spattered and have that chase over. Not have the semi suddenly launched into the air like a goddamn Hollywood anti-tank mine just went off under it.

And don't get me started on the city resets. If I'm smart enough to scope a venue before attacking it and park a van against the back exit so people can't escape that way, it drives me mental when they escape that way because the city has reset in order to present another fucking cutscene showing them escaping out that fucking door and sending me headlong into another chase sequence.

And what about the times I go, "hmmm, that's gotta be the getaway car that they'll use, I'll shoot out the tyres on it now." And then the target comes out of the building once the mission triggers and the car is magically repaired. In fact, it's better than that. It's magically fucking invulnerable because YOU WANT ME TO DO ANOTHER FUCKING CHASE SEQUENCE!

Linearity and stifling players imagination is not what made the GTA series great. I understand that they want to tell a story, but if you can't tell a story without crippling the gameplay, then you should probably re-consider your design.

It would be fucking nice if Rockstar could remember that when they bring out the DLC. If that can come out and give me five missions in a row without some bullshit narrative forced obstruction to play, then I'll happily send Rockstar a Valentines card for all the other great stuff in the game.

Man I had this discussion way back when the game came out. What's that? Blind turn into a suicide jump you don't know about? Brilliant!

Stark wrote:Man I had this discussion way back when the game came out. What's that? Blind turn into a suicide jump you don't know about? Brilliant!

It's fucking obscene just how drastically that game shifts it's mechanics about to make sure that their precious plot doesn't get fucked over.

I'm going to give that final level another go tonight. I'll have to scout the area to start with so I know how to do the jump - but fuck Rockstar. This is making me reconsider my burning urge for Midnight Club.

Thanks for writing that up. I actually didn't catch the previous GTA IV discussion (because I avoided it, I wanted to play the game first) and I noticed the same thing too. I attempted to head off some gangster once by blocking off an alleyway (I needed to steal a car) and I was pretty damn disappointed that the car I put in place disappeared. Unfortunately I'm so used to this bullshit design that at the time I didn't care too much, I just sucked it up and did it as the developers wanted me to. But looking back I actually really hate it when that happens.

And it didn't just happen in GTA IV, it happened in San Adreas too and Vice City to a lesser degree. The best missions can catch you off guard but don't force you to do things a certain way. In fact the side missions, and I think this one was for Brucie, should have no city resets whatsoever. They might help you in the resources they can give you but they don't effect the main plot at all. And that's what the whole game is about, right? Well that and aimless driving and shooting if you feel like doing that.

I agree. I never did finish the last mission because that stupid stunt jump on the bike.

This is one reason why I really dug Saints Row 2- the physics are insane, but they are CONSISTENTLY insane. You know what will happen if you perform a certain action, and the plot is paper thin, so the game never worries about you fucking up one of its cutscenes.

So it is par for the course? Or worse?

Yeah, I'm interested in Saints 2 because it's playable as a free bunch of silly subgames. Chardz played it for like 10 hours and did ONE story mission, which interests me a great deal.

I had to do the last mission of GTA 4 so many times that I had the first parts down to science. You don't even need to fight past the roadblock with the firefight and fight through the building. You can run back, go past where the bike spawns, up the stairs to the roof and drop through a hole into the area where you get the cutscene, killing absolutely nobody. And then if you're like me, fail entirely to complete the rest of the mission.

It's not just about repetition - it only took me about half a dozen goes tops, but it's just really, really poor design and, as Ando says, is a bunch of problems from the rest of the game all in one mission.

Don't forget this is a gmae where you can lose a mission if a train gets too far away from you. OH NO, WHERE COULD THE TRAIN BE GOING.

Stark wrote:It's not just about repetition - it only took me about half a dozen goes tops, but it's just really, really poor design and, as Ando says, is a bunch of problems from the rest of the game all in one mission.

Don't forget this is a gmae where you can lose a mission if a train gets too far away from you. OH NO, WHERE COULD THE TRAIN BE GOING.

It sucked because I couldn't take the train out with an RPG. It would have made the mission a lot easier to finish. But noooooooo, they had to make the train invincible.

Well I've been playing SR2, and while GTAIV looks nicer, and has a more realistic gritty feel to it, SR2 seems to be a more enjoyable game.

I finally finished that mission.

Total count was (IIRC)
1 - Failed due to taking the boat
2 - Failed due to completely missing the jump location
3 - Killed by a lucky headshot
4 - Failed due to Jimmy Pegorino "getting away" during the foot chase segment because I diverted just slightly to avoid the legions of dudes with M4s
5 - Killed due to unlucky physics (dropped through roof, did awkward landing roll on top of the porta-cabin inside, and fell onto the floor and was shotgunned by a dude that I'd missed).
6 - Failed due to jump apparently needing to be PERFECTLY FUCKING TIMED - I hit the jump after I'd been told that the helo was there -and there was no fucking helo, just a bunch of open space and a river with the helo still chasing the boat.
7 - Failed due to trying to make the jump and swerving wide, going straight into the ocean.
8 - Killed by lucky headshot in the footchase
9 - Failed due to missing the jump timing again.
10 - FINALLY FUCKING GET THE JUMP, do the heli-chase, dodging the RPGs, then have the "THIS RPG ABSOLUTELY MUST HIT YOU NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO" moment and finish the mission easily, gunning down a few guys, having a hotdog and then capping Jimmy P once I have full health again.

Needlessly long, pointless and checkpointless mission completed. Game completed. 60pt Achievement received. Level of satisfaction - VERY, VERY minimal.

The final mission of GTA SA was similar bullshit.

JointStrikeFighter wrote:The final mission of GTA SA was similar bullshit.

Yeah, that took me a similar amount of tries. My favourite was when I lost at what turned out to be IMMEDIATELY BEFORE the last moment of the chase.

JointStrikeFighter wrote:The final mission of GTA SA was similar bullshit.

My second favorite part of that mission was shooting out all four of the fire-truck's tires and seeing no change in its handling, which ably demonstrated to me that it was just an invincible box that I had to follow until a scripted sequence somehow killed it. My first favorite part was the showdown with Sweet, which I won with kung-fu (knocking him down with a combo then stomping him). Whee.

Wait, people play the storyline in GTA?

Its bullshit like this that really made me appreciate the first Mercenaries game, which was how a sandbox game with missions should be done. I'm given an objective, sometimes some secondary objectives, and then let loose to complete them however I feel like it. Want to take out that NK base with a helicopter? Fine. Take it out with a tank? Sure. Gather a mess of friendly soldiers in an APC and storm the place? Works out just fine. Want to steel-balls it and take everything out on foot with a rifle? Perfectly legitimate.

And sucked, don't forget that. It was a simplistic, trivially easy ugmo-fest... but it was more open. Are we still pretending nobody noticed Rockstar is moving toward more story-based games? Do I really need to point at Midnight Club?

oomg i heaz it's weerd to play teh sotrays in gta even tho u can't get access to contentzzz without it!!!11111

If anyone suggests playing stories in sandbox games is dumb, I'm going to stab them in the eyes with RTS campaign cutscenes.

Stark wrote:And sucked, don't forget that. It was a simplistic, trivially easy ugmo-fest...

Some of the missions were tough, but that was usually the ones with a time limit, or threw you into combat the instant you stepped out the door, or the damn Ace contracts. Oh, hey, let's throw you against a million North Korean soldiers and tanks in an hour-long meandering mission WITH NO CHECKPOINTS. So, if you die, you have to go ALL THE WAY BACK LIKE AN HOUR LOL. Especially the last contract, which, right in the middle of it all threw a sudden jump at you that if you missed the ramp by even a tiny amount, you get flung into the freezing death waters a mile below.

The only thing that saved that mission was the fact that you got to drive an Abrams at the begining.

And sucked, don't forget that. It was a simplistic, trivially easy ugmo-fest... but it was more open.

It was simplistic and easy, but it was also loads of fun. I spend entirely too much time just blowing up random Norks for no reason. I remember I once started sniping Sangri Scout crews from a hill next to the leaking reactor in the northern map. By the time I was done there were 40 or 50 empty vehicles lying around (meaning I killed 80-100 men with a sniper rifle... and they were still sending more). I called in a carpet bombing, and laughed maniacally as as dozens of burning vehicles were catapulted into the air. I love my explosions.

Hey, there's a chase scene in Mercenaries. One of the final missions. Man, there's so many ways you can finish that one. If you take a chopper it's possible to just blow the bastard away early on. If you take a car you can try running him off the road and then killing him, or follow him to his destination and kill him there, or steal his helicopter and kill him with it. Personally? I prefer to attach C4 to my car beforehand, aim it as his waiting helicopter, ditch the car, and then blow the explosives. Though that's because I know what to expect. The first time I was bearing down at full speed when I saw him get out of his car and run to his heli, so I just turned him into road kill.

Peptuck wrote:Some of the missions were tough, but that was usually the ones with a time limit, or threw you into combat the instant you stepped out the door, or the damn Ace contracts. Oh, hey, let's throw you against a million North Korean soldiers and tanks in an hour-long meandering mission WITH NO CHECKPOINTS. So, if you die, you have to go ALL THE WAY BACK LIKE AN HOUR LOL. Especially the last contract, which, right in the middle of it all threw a sudden jump at you that if you missed the ramp by even a tiny amount, you get flung into the freezing death waters a mile below.

I didn't find the Ace Contracts that frustrating. The second one was the only one I found annoying, since it's long and easy to die in. The first was pretty straightforward, the third had a shortcut that let you skip to the half-way mark, and the last one did have one checkpoint. I actually voluntarily re-started the mission when I realized I had that one checkpoint, because I wanted to keep my Abrams.

I've kinda bogged down during the last suit of Mercenaries, I did all the South Korean Missions and blew up the Chinese Bridge... before Doing the Chinese missions. I can't be bothered buying/stealing a Helicopter each time I want to work for them.

That and the annoying habit of enemy people to RPG you from point blank range thereby killing you both off makes the game slightly annoying at times.

The Revenge end game in GTA4 can go suck a whale cock.
The firefight was cake, then catching the helicopter in the boat took me about 10 tries. Seriously, Jacob will fly above for awhile, but then he just takes off, like a dick.

Ah. I *thought* I had seen this sort of review/complaint about GTA before... And I managed to dig up the relevant article! It's done by the author of the Webcomic: DM Of The Rings, and the article/entry is titled "Grand Theft Railroad". I especially liked the linked article titled "Do It Again, Stupid" and how he summed up the "railroading" of GTA as being in a "movie" rather than a videogame.

Website and articles linked to for your enjoyment and entertainment... Some interesting stuff on that website.

Crazedwraith wrote:I've kinda bogged down during the last suit of Mercenaries, I did all the South Korean Missions and blew up the Chinese Bridge... before Doing the Chinese missions. I can't be bothered buying/stealing a Helicopter each time I want to work for them.

It's not like choppers are expensive. I usually fly around in one anyway, it's faster. However, it would have been awesome if after their bridge was destroyed they seized the nearby docks and you could take a boat to cross. No need for any animation, just talk to the appropiate officer and you teleport to Dandong, but if the Chinese hate you and you want to bribe them, you still have to fly in.

That and the annoying habit of enemy people to RPG you from point blank range thereby killing you both off makes the game slightly annoying at times.

There's a sweet spot distance where you are far enough to dodge RPGs but close enough to kill anyone with an SMG burst. So long as you keep dancing, at that distance you are God.

Crazedwraith wrote:I've kinda bogged down during the last suit of Mercenaries, I did all the South Korean Missions and blew up the Chinese Bridge... before Doing the Chinese missions. I can't be bothered buying/stealing a Helicopter each time I want to work for them.

If you unlock a heli for purchase, you can use the equipment glitch to buy one for free. That's how I tend to get around the map without any problems (well, except that the only helis you can purchase are Allied and NK ones, and the latter get shot at by everything with a gun)